Debunking the 'Fake Jew' AKA The 'Khazarian Jew' Myth.

Originally posted by Chilled1

Which essentially means that their isolationism has led to their beliefs of racist supremacy... I know jews that say "Oh- I'm Ashkenazi Jew and we're the smartest race of people".. to that I say go (blank) your racist self. It's also disturbing the way you reference these "views" are used by anti-semites- well, honey, that is ploy- if anyone is to raise any of these views you are a racist, anti-semite, nazi, blah blah blah blah.. because I'm a jew blah blah blah blah.. It's really quite a pathetic ploy to denounce and suppress any intelligent dialog .

Fake jew or non-fake jew your argument doesn't paint any better picture and as one other poster stated- certainly doesn't justify their actions against the helpless Palestinian people that they have been starving and imprisoning with in the Gaza borders, prior to and following Israel's military attacks. Rocket and tanks versus stones and home-made rockets.. 417+ lives vs 6 Israeli lives.. Give me a break.. We pro-Palestinian posters still have a lot to be upset about.

I should probably read the whole thread to see if anyone replied to this yet, but I'm feeling a bit lazy and churlish.

Could you please clarify a bit of what you have written here? Was it Ashley that you were calling 'honey'? Were you claiming that she identifies herself as a Jew? Is it your contention that this thread and especially the OP were not a catalyst for intelligent discourse?

Are you having difficulties in separating this thread from the issue of the current state of the Israel/Palestinian conflict? Do you really think that anyone is saying that pro-Palestinian posters don't have anything to be upset about or that the op is an attempt to mute dialog? Or was that just a very obvious strawman argument?

I apologize in advance if I'm just being dense here.

Eric

reply to post by Chilled1


I have to agree with the above poster who labeled your post a strawman argument. The following quote from your post is the only thing I will address as it is the only part of your post that was on topic:

if anyone is to raise any of these views you are a racist, anti-Semite, nazi, blah blah blah blah.. because I'm a jew blah blah blah blah.. It's really quite a pathetic ploy to denounce and suppress any intelligent dialog.

Nothing in the original post claimed everyone who makes this claim is an anti-Semite. Often times someone will hear or read about this accusation and repeat it without knowing any better because they didn't do their research.

Please pay special attention to the wording in the OP that states antisemitic groups are more often than not the ones who vocally and purposely spread this false conspiracy. Anti-Zionist movements, consisting of Christians, Muslim, and even Jews, also propagate this argument. My main goal here is to refute the allegation and bring the facts to the table. And those facts include Antisemitic and Anti-Zionist groups often, but not always, being behind this myth.



Just a general thread note to several posts.

For some reason, a few posters are somehow reaching the conclusion this thread is attempting to justify certain events, and what some would deem atrocities, taking place in Gaza. That is not remotely the purpose of this thread. The Gaza conflict really has little to do with this thread other than the fact the increase in threads relating to that subject inspired this one due to the amount of posts bringing up the 'Fake Jew' argument.

This thread's main purpose is to debunk the myth- not to choose sides between Gaza/Palestine and Israel. Again, I do not wish to censor anyone so if you for some reason feel the need to continue that line of discussion- feel free. I'm not a mod so I can't demand anyone stick to the topic. However, this is just a note to say I'm not going to be replying to such deflective posts anymore. They are strawman arguments plain and simple and an attempt to derail a unique topic that is not often discussed on ATS from the skeptical side.

reply to post by AshleyD


disagreeing with you does not make me anti-jew or w/e

good historians like myself know better than to "pretend" they know what happened 500years ago

also your evidence is circumstancial and i disagree with your bias conclusions

even if most ppl at ATS are wrong doesnt mean your right either
2 wrongs dont make a right

reply to post by breakingdradles


You are forgetting the prophecy of the 'Dry Bones' in Ezekiel that specifically mentions Israel will be reunited as a nation before their spiritual restoration.

Ezekiel's Dry Bones Prophecy:

1 The hand of the LORD was upon me, and he brought me out by the Spirit of the LORD and set me in the middle of a valley; it was full of bones. 2 He led me back and forth among them, and I saw a great many bones on the floor of the valley, bones that were very dry. 3 He asked me, "Son of man, can these bones live?"
I said, "O Sovereign LORD, you alone know."

4 Then he said to me, "Prophesy to these bones and say to them, 'Dry bones, hear the word of the LORD! 5 This is what the Sovereign LORD says to these bones: I will make breath [a] enter you, and you will come to life. 6 I will attach tendons to you and make flesh come upon you and cover you with skin; I will put breath in you, and you will come to life. Then you will know that I am the LORD.' "

7 So I prophesied as I was commanded. And as I was prophesying, there was a noise, a rattling sound, and the bones came together, bone to bone. 8 I looked, and tendons and flesh appeared on them and skin covered them, but there was no breath in them.

9 Then he said to me, "Prophesy to the breath; prophesy, son of man, and say to it, 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says: Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe into these slain, that they may live.' " 10 So I prophesied as he commanded me, and breath entered them; they came to life and stood up on their feet—a vast army.

11 Then he said to me: "Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel. They say, 'Our bones are dried up and our hope is gone; we are cut off.' 12 Therefore prophesy and say to them: 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says: O my people, I am going to open your graves and bring you up from them; I will bring you back to the land of Israel. 13 Then you, my people, will know that I am the LORD, when I open your graves and bring you up from them. 14 I will put my Spirit in you and you will live, and I will settle you in your own land. Then you will know that I the LORD have spoken, and I have done it, declares the LORD.' "

Ezekiel 37

The order is the Jews return to Israel where they then have the breath of live breathed into the 'bones.' This signifies a spiritual restoration after their physical restoration in the form of returning to the land.

Also pay close attention to the words 'Then you will know I the Lord have spoken and I have done it.' It does not say you will know who I am then I will do it. It clearly explains they will return to God after being restored.

Hope that helps. Thanks for your contribution.

reply to post by muzzleflash


Please point out where I accused you or any other member here of being antisemitic. Thanks. I will offer you a public apology here in this thread if you can do that for me. You claim to be a historian. Please note I never claimed all who put forth this idea are antisemitic. If you can challenge the info in the OP, I fully welcome your future contributions into this thread. But putting accusatory words into my mouth is not conducive to the progression of this thread and will not be encouraged by myself.

[edit on 1/2/2009 by AshleyD]

People the subject of this thread is Debunking the 'Fake Jew' AKA The 'Khazarian Jew' Myth not what is happening in Palestine today.

Stick to the topic please and thank you.

Sauron
Forum Moderator.


[edit on 3/1/2009 by Sauron]

As most things in the NT it is a bad interpretation,
The word "Jew" is actually YHVHDEEN or YaHVaHuDeeN
this means those who serve YaHVaH. Not Jew.

So if you say you serve YaHVaH and you do not you are of the
temple of satan.


Peace




reply to post by Icarus Rising

reply to post by AshleyD

Good research but as the first individual who replied:

Ancestral claim?

Tell that to Jericho.

It is rediculouse to claim that they have any ancestral claim over anything specially in this century when cultures and races have joined together. If you allow such ideas to exist than their is no justice to ancestral claims of others.

Even the Muslims who you guys portay as terrorist have more understanding, not even them call it ancestral claim over the land, they call it injustice. They say We lived amogst Jews and Jews lived amongst us. Why did they force thousands of Jewish migrants on one land as if the world doesn't have enough space. Injustice is the only word, ancestral claim is for uneducated.

reply to post by AshleyD



Okay, I have read this information before but I still have a question about it.

It is my understanding that for a person to be considered a biological Jew, the mother of that person has to be Jew, even to this day. Your research is about male dna. To prove you are decended from a Jewish line, would not that require female dna?

I am not an intellectual, just someone who tries to think and put thing together. I have no bias here, just want to get to the truth.

Do you have any information to add as to the female line

Thanks

edit to say, I have wondered if the male dna didn't come from the rabbis and Jew that the kazars brougth in to teach them about Judism. Although I am a medical person, this is not my specialty. The numbers mentioned does seem to preclude this.

[edit on 2-1-2009 by liveandlearn]

Originally posted by Ownification

Even the Muslims who you guys portay as terrorist have more understanding, not even them call it ancestral claim over the land, they call it injustice. They say We lived amogst Jews and Jews lived amongst us. Why did they force thousands of Jewish migrants on one land as if the world doesn't have enough space. Injustice is the only word, ancestral claim is for uneducated.

Who are 'you guys'?

This is getting way off topic. I would humbly suggest that:

a) If you want to explore the possible historical injustices perpetrated against Muslims, create a thread for it.

b) Use clarity in your accusations so that it is clear who 'you guys' are. Without that clarity the reader is forced to assume that you are setting up a false us vs. them dichotomy.

Eric

reply to post by Ownification


Thank you for your post. First I'm going to quote the part in my OP you are referring to before explaining:

This claim is typically offered as a reason why Jews currently inhabiting the state of Israel have no legitimate ancestral claim to the land.

Instead of getting into the 'ancestral claim' argument which is an excellent discussion in and of itself, I'm going to tie my answer directly into the topic. And that is, if ancestral claim should not be an issue (opinions will differ regarding the importance and fairness so I'll respect the right of everyone to have their own view of this), why the need to invent false accusations regarding a segment of the Jewish population's ancestry?

If we're to stay on topic, then the question is not 'do or should the Jews have ancestral claim to the land.' Instead, if critics claim ancestral rights is not even an issue, why are these critics trying to disprove their ancestral claim by attacking their ancestry if its such a non issue? What they should be doing is disputing the claim to ancestral right fairly, logically, and historically- not fabricating arguments which is what they are doing in this case.

reply to post by liveandlearn



Excellent question. It had me stumped at first so I had to think about an answer.

I will most definitely look into this further but off the top of my head, I would imagine we're discussing science vs. Jewish customs and tradition.

To trace the line scientifically, it would be traced through the father. Then according to Jewish custom's and tradition, the 'Jewishness' would be determined via the mother.

Just a guess but I will make sure my facts are straight.

reply to post by AshleyD


You said,

I will most definitely look into this further but off the top of my head, I would imagine we're discussing science vs. Jewish customs and tradition.

To trace the line scientifically, it would be traced through the father. Then according to Jewish custom's and tradition, the 'Jewishness' would be determined via the mother.

First, very interesting and informative thread - great job Ashley.
Second, just for clarification: are you saying that we should be going by the scientific trace rather than the custom-trace for determining who is a Jew? IF that's the case, then wouldn't this negate the whole portion of converted Jews as this is also a custom route of becoming Jewish rather than scientific? (That just reminded me of the The Simpsons episode where Marge says took the Simpson name AND DNA when marrying Homer).

If that's not what you meant then I just misunderstood and apologies.

There was an expedition to the Caspian Sea - the area that was the
heart of Khazarian Kaganat (the Khazar empire). It was sponsored
by the State of Israel.

The goal was to find Itil - the capital of Khazarian state.
Some promising leads were found however Caspian Sea was at expansion
phase that lasts 70-100 years from what I can remember,
and archeologists could not proceed any further. They did however
find a large city under Caspian water from helicopters...

One of the reasons for finding Itil was to finally get some clarifications
on who Khazars were and what happened to them.

Those who claim that Khazars are Ashkenazi miss a very important
but obvious fact. Besides 12 Jewish tribes for whom final destination
varied dramatically (there are claims that one of the tribes reached
as far as modern Ireland), there were local Jewish communities abroad.

Khazars were Judaism-converts among whom Jews lived; both
prospered. Khazar empire was very large, at a time controlling
parts of Russia reaching as fat as Hungary. Khazarian coins with
"Moses is the messenger of God" on them were found in Europe.

There is even an evidence that Khazar king was sending letters
to noble Spanish Jews.

My point is that Khazars and Jews lived together, worked together,
fought together. They both created what now is European Jewry.

Just to show evidence of local Jewish communities abroad consider
the case of Iranian, Georgian and Azeri Jews. Note - they are not
Khazars. However the theory - and I think it's true - states that both
Khazars and Jews at one time in history lived, worked and fought
together - Judaism was a single religion they shared.

reply to post by dreamer01


The issue would possibly be a concern if the scientific data through the father's line contradicted with the maternal line held through tradition. However, since they appear to compliment each other and those traditionally identifying themselves as Jews through their maternal line have been validated scientifically through the paternal line, I see no problem.

Great question, though.

here's a theoretical question. What if someone were christian & asian but has spanish sephardic ancestors, a DNA test proves it...

does this person have a right of return also?

one more question can a DNA test prove davidic lineage?

AshleyD,
Thank you for this thought provoking thread and the work you have put into it.
Even though you point out the DNA evidence for a common Middle Eastern ancestor. It must be admitted that the heirs of the Pharisees are not to be discerned by racial or ethnic criteria, but rather by ideology.

As for the DNA evidence, we must also look at the North African Sephardic people of which the majority of Israeli Jews are descended from, making them genetically indistinguishable from the Arab people.

I agree that it cannot be accurately stated that all Jews today are Khazar, but a significant percentage of European and American Jews do take their ancestral lineage from them.

"After considering the strong evidence for cultural, linguistic and ethnic ties... one can only come to the conclusion: that the Eastern European Jews are descended from both the Khazars and other converts, as well as from Judeans... Ashkenazic Jews have the right as well as the obligation, to rediscover and reclaim our unique mixed heritage. Many of us are, indeed, heirs to the great Khazar Empire that once ruled the Russian Steppes."

Kevin Alan Brook, The Jews of Khazaria (Northvale, NJ: Jacob Aronson, 1999), p. 305-306.

There is some historical evidence that does point to a mass conversion of the Khazarian people, if we look at the religious history of the area.

The Khazars were originally shamanists. Their major God being Tengri, the God of the sky. Amulets bearing his image that were found in burial sites and in settlements petered out some time after the 830's. It was around this time that coins were minted in commemoration of the Judaic conversion.

We can also look to The Khazar Correspondance.

The Khazar Correspondence was an exchange of letters in the 950s or 960s between Hasdai ibn Shaprut, foreign secretary to the Caliph of Cordoba, and Joseph, Khagan of the Khazars.

WIKI

"A more detailed account of the origins and development of Khazar Judaism appears in what has become known as the Khazar Correspondance, which took place between Hasdai and King Joseph. In his detailed response to Hasdai's request for further information about the Jewish Kingdom, King Joseph describes... How Bulan's successor, King Obadiah, instituted Rabbinic Judaism by fortifying the Law, building Synagogues and schools, and making his sages interpret the twenty-four sacred books, the Mishnah and the Talmud.
"For an insight into the daily life of this people we are fortunate to have the extraordinary Kievan letter, again discovered in the Cairo Genizah, in 1962. Written on parchment and believed to date from around 930 when Kiev was under Khazar rule, it is the oldest Khazarian document ever found. It takes the form of a letter of recommendation written by Khazar Jews on behalf of one Jacob ben Hanukkah after his brother had borrowed a large sum of money and afterwards had been robbed and killed. The purpose of the letter was to raise the remaining forty coins from among other Jewish communities. It was written in square Hebrew letters and in Hebrew, but witha Turkic runiform word hoqurum ('I have read it') added in brushstroke at the bottom corner, indicating knowledge of both languages on the part of the Khazar official. The eleven signatories display a mixture of Turkic and Hebrew names. The existence of such a letter suggests that Judaism was widespread amongst the Khazars, not just the province of royalty as has been suggested, and extended as far west as Kiev.
"...Brooks concludes his book with an overview of DNA testing among Jewish communities... 52% of Ashkenazi Levites carry haplogroup R1a1, a type associated with Eastern Europe and Central Asia...suggests that an important Jewish priestly family may have adopted the Levite title" Mark Glanville, Jewish Quarterley, Winter, 2007, No 208.

[Mod note fix BB code]





[edit on 3/1/2009 by Sauron]

According to the Torah, arent' Jews(Juden) the descendants of Judah, the black and fourth son of Jacob(Israel)? To stipulate that Jews are white is similar to saying Americans are white. We are all aware that the original Americans have been annexed to reservations and been labelled as Indians just because a white man(Columbus) couldn't read a map on his way to India. The term Black Jew is a non starter since Jew= Black person. The current occupants of the land of Israel and Palestine are no more than imperialist Zionists from Europe. What kind of Jew is called Rosenbaum, Schlezinger or Stiller? Utter crap. Those guys are adherents of the Jewish religion and sub-culture and that single fact does not usher unto them the right to be ethnic Jews. I would like to witness a day when an African Christian is appointed Pope or the head of any global christian authority.Would that appointment mean all Christians as Africans? Remember, King Solomon the greatest of Jewish kings referred to himself as Black. His son Menelik I relocated to the Horn of Africa with the Ark of the Covenant. Moses was a black man and so were Shimson (Samson) and Samuel.

LET THE TRUTH BE TOLD.

Why are the Khazars and the Khazarian Empire not mentioned in any history books?

Why have Jewish historians and authors like Arthur Koestler meticulously documented the Caucasian ancestry of Ashkenazim Jews if it wasn't true?

I think the OP is trying to re-write history.