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Underlying messages in the LOTR

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posted on Jan, 21 2003 @ 04:12 PM
I have just finished some pages on the underlying messageas and motivations in the Lord of the Rings, from a book about Tolkien I have been reading.

They are interesting...


posted on Jan, 21 2003 @ 05:14 PM

posted on Jan, 21 2003 @ 05:42 PM
very interesting netchicken. now if only i were in school yet i could of used that for a book report.

it's amazing how much subtleties and under the radar stuff writers put in books. and i thought my teachers were high when they said stuff like that. i always thought, "what if they just wanted to tell a story"

do ya got anymore coming?

posted on Jan, 22 2003 @ 08:12 AM
The telephone book is a deeply allagorical tome that acurately predicts future events, if you are willing to extrapolate and dig far enough.

Tolkein Claimed LOTR was simply a work of fiction, he stringently denied it had any metaphoric purpose, and I see no reason to doubt him beyond the possibility of some subconcious references and archetypes.

posted on Jan, 22 2003 @ 05:09 PM
I have to agree with Lupe again

hehe J/K Lupe, you are a bit of fun to debate with though

posted on Jan, 22 2003 @ 05:18 PM
AS usual Lupes rampant ignorance gets carried away with him, this time sucking in some small fry along the way...

If you had bothered to read the articles you would see that, apart from the allegorical one which is discussed in depth, the words used are quotes from Tolkein himself.

posted on Jan, 22 2003 @ 06:10 PM
I did read them. I also know that tolkien himself had insisted that there was NO correlation to the real world other than inspiration for some aspects(geographically). This was NOT a work of Political significance by any means.

Don't get me wrong, I am a HUGE fan of the books (for the last 25 years actually) but I think you may be reading into it a bit too deep. They are great fictional stories but beyond that I don't see any direct connection to the real world implied(except maybe the multiple references to shire weed

I think you have come up with some very good theoretical material yet without speaking to the author directly it's all still speculation. Hell, I don't even understand MY fathers motives all the time

posted on Jan, 22 2003 @ 06:36 PM

his decision to make the orc language guttural, which some might interpret as an extreme "~ distortion of spoken German

Does this make EVERYONE who speaks a base Germanic language "evil"? Then Tolkien himself was "evil" as are you and I. As I said, you may be reading a bit too deeply.

posted on Jan, 22 2003 @ 07:09 PM
Well the "story" of LotR is actually almost lifted entirely from Finnish tribal songs, from these tribes in northern Finland that Tolkien spent much time with.

There in that part of the world, Norse myth still lived as tales, passed from elder to young. And Middle Earth is Midgard.

There really is no difference that I could see between the black tongue and the Elvish because they both used a lot of Consonants, since C in elvish is pronounced K.

Blah blah, the Dwarves now there's a real gutteral language, but they are described as always being good, though they hid when Sauron took over the world.

"Gandalf - Clearly a profit figure" Wrong, clearly an Odin rip off...hell he even dies to gain more "wisdom".

Furthermore, they say that all the dates are related to older christian dates of importance, which we all know are related to older pagan dates of importance, this Tolkien knew too.

And I do think tolkien's works are an allegory, though he may not even known exactly how it was when he wrote it.

This "Stuff you can use" over-looks many things.

Such as Treebeard remembering when names were MUCH longer. And comments "Seems all the names are now shortening, even mine."

They fail to mention the Elves passing away to the land of the west. Note passing away that was how tolkien ALWAYS reffered to it, the west was indeed the land of the dead, where the elves came from, just as in norse myth...Asgaurd (not really the land of dead, but only the dead and gods reside there
) actually upon reading this, I just realized that norse myth the land of the "dead" would be more properly titled the land of "immortals". Since there the brave would live forever, until of course the final battle, I'll mention more of this after further explaination at the end, also in bold.

I believe the travelling to the west is indeed the most important part of the whole story, because as the Elves travel to the west, the magic leaves from Middle Eart//Midgard, and leaves man mortal with short lives, dwarves die out as a race, and hobbits hide somewhere

LotR is more of a sad story, of how history is always grander, and the next "age" is ever more deminished, compared to the previous.

Morgoth in the First Age, Elrond mentions how splendid the banners and armor were then, and how grand it was when Morgoth was defeated, and "thangorodrim" broken.

Sauron with the second age, again, a great alliance of Men and Elves to fight off a lesser evil, Morgoth's servant, Sauron. He is defeated, Elves retreat from the world of man, and begin to travel west.

Evil grows again, the numenor are now all but gone, leaving the world TERRIBLY plain, and dwarves are left homeless, and men fighting desperate battles, and the Elves still leaving to the west.

Finally they defeat Sauron, in doing so the last bit of Middle earth, Lothlorien, is no longer protected by Galadriel's ring of Adament, Gandalf's abilities are few without his Ring of Fire, and Elrond's Ring is now also useless.

The Elves in the next 100 years or so all are gone, man is all that's left with gimili's departure, and the dwarves deminishing numbers, the hobbits left to themselves...and finally when Arwyn dies in Lothlorien, winter falls upon lothlorien for the first time ever.

Signifying the Death...of Elvendom in the land of mortals, and in a sense, the end of Middle Earth, and the rise of modern history.

More or less, the death of Paganism, and the rise of the world we know today.

The 3rd age could also be Ragnarok, possibly, being the end of the "norse" culture, since it is the final battle for all, while they all don't die, the elves all leave, they all die eventually of age what not, and most importantly, their way of life dies, making way for as I said above, modern type peoples. Not the grand destruction Ragnarok predicts, but its concept seems much the same, and most of Tolkien's works are far less than grand, and very down to earth.

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[Edited on 23-1-2003 by FreeMason]

posted on Jan, 23 2003 @ 03:36 AM
I read them.
n fact I've come accross them before.

extrapolating the concept of the elvish lands lying to the east into a comment on world politics regardless of his philosophical and aesthetic connections to it is simply a bit of a leap when compared to his rather more elegant quotes such as "no its not about the bloody war I wish people would stop asking me that question"

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