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NSA Study Rules Out Pearl Harbor Conspiracy

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posted on Dec, 8 2008 @ 11:02 PM
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Originally posted by xpert11

Originally posted by RFBurns
ROFLMAO!!!!


Right back at you for swallowing such half baked conspiracy theory's rather then facing the actual facts .




Arent you aware that dispite the good attempt by the Japanese military to hide their plans, we had already decoded every single one of their Enigma coded messages even before their decoders at their embassy in Washington had them decoded!

Sorry, but looks like just some other attempt by NSA to divert attention off of something else going on.

I wish there were some WWII vets in here that could partake. Especially ones that were there in Pearl Harbor. I would like to hear their take on NSA's little spant.


I C U! Easy pattern to spot.



Cheers!!!!

[edit on 8-12-2008 by RFBurns]



posted on Dec, 8 2008 @ 11:04 PM
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Why was the National Security Agency conducting this research anyway?

Seems rather odd that an Agency dedicated to keeping us secured was spending it's time researching yet another incident where the government failed to keep us secured.



posted on Dec, 8 2008 @ 11:18 PM
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reply to post by RFBurns
 


I am well aware of that fact . What you are over looking is that from time to time the changed the enemy changed the Cipher(SP?) Code meaning that until it was cracked there was no decoding of high level Japanese military traffic . Going by my memory at the time US intel had cracked the Japanese diplomatic code known as Purple but not the military version . Also the decoding process did not take place at the speed you state did not take place until later on in the war .

Cheers xpert11 .



posted on Dec, 9 2008 @ 08:21 AM
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Originally posted by ItsTheQuestion
reply to post by logician magician
 


Well, it's no Weekly World News...




HILO TRIBUNE-HERALD
Micro only: Feb. 19, 1923 - Mar. 1, 1964
(On reel w/ HAWAII TRIBUNE HERALD)
Formerly: HILO DAILY TRIBUNE; HAWAII HERALD; DAILY POST- HERALD
Cont'd as: HAWAII TRIBUNE HERALD

hawaii.gov...-herald
Hawaii Tribune-Herald



I mean "real newspaper" as in really published like that. Any loon can go and find a historical paper listed as being on "microfilm' over the internet and manipulate it however they want. Most fools will believe that it's real if he simply links back to the non-linked "proof' that a paper by that name and that date exists.

Have you seen the actual microfilm or paper from the news site itself?



posted on Dec, 9 2008 @ 09:46 AM
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reply to post by xpert11
 





I read that during the 1930s that a Japanese diplomat was given a tour of the airfields. I think that this info appeared in the book “At Dawn We Slept.” Even if my memory is faulty security at Pearl Habour was pretty lax.



Likely true on the visit
to the airfields. I do not attach any sinister intent to that. Life was a lot slower in 1941 than today’s. Football was over by the end of November except for the Rose Bowl. (Re the Hilo newspaper: If OSC is Oregon State College then what team was the Cards?) Anyone could have purchased VFR flight charts at the airport’s General Aviation counter that would reveal the physical layout of the airfields. Visual Flight Rules. See Note 1.

History.
Japan had seized Formosa from China in the 1890s. Japan had conquered Korea in the 1910s. Japan had taken Manchuria in the early 1930s. Japan invaded China proper in 1937. The Rape of Nanking. The US was trying via the diplomatic route to bring that particular war to a halt. The Japanese walked out of the League of Nations when it decided to take up the Sino-Japanese war.

Anticipating armed conflict
with Japan, the US had pulled back its main fleet from the Philippines - Subic Bay - and put them in our closer territory of Hawaii. At Pearl Harbor. With all our battleships and all our aircraft carriers posted there, it was the STRONGEST place on earth, navy-wise speaking. Who would dare attack the US at its point of maximum strength?

We still held Guam
, Wake and Midway islands in the Pacific. It seemed far more likely one of those islands would be attacked than the Japanese would strike so very far from their own bases. I’m sure we had a contingency plan for that possibility but it must have been far down on the list of likely hot spots.

On At Dawn We Slept.” For me the relevant fact is the author worked on the staff of General of the Army Douglas MacArthur. That raises a serious question of bias. I believe it is germane to recall that MacArthur was the Army Chief of Staff in 1932 who overruled his 2 on-site subordinates, Eisenhower and Patton, and ordered the use of tear gas to disperse the Bonus Marchers in W-DC. The WW1 veterans were there to petition Congress for redress of grievances, a right found in the First Amendment. Out of character, MacArthur commanded the removal operation in person, perhaps the first time ever for a chief of staff. Q. Did MacArthur harbor political ambitions even then? See Note 2.

MacArthur
was forced to retire from the Army by FDR. To get him out of the country, FDR reassigned him to the Territory of the Philippines to head up the nascent army there still called the Philippine Constabulary. MacArthur himself “slept” after the Pearl Harbor strike. The next day, the Japanese caught and destroyed his airplanes on the ground at Clark Field despite having a full 24 hours warning after the great war was on! That is negligence.

Ironically
it was FDR’s successor Harry Truman who also fired him again, this time kicked out of Korea in 1951 for disobeying orders! If there was one thing MacArthur always carried with him, it was a grudge! And his staff reflected his thinking or they were OFF the staff. Dissent was not acceptable. I would read the book with a lot of skepticism. And I don’t overlook that MacArthur ran for the GOP nomination for president in 1952.




Pre war the IJN Strategic play book went something like this. Draw the USN to the area around the WW1 mandated islands and fight a decisive battle where the IJN would be victorious. Along the way carrier based aircraft and submarines would weaken the USN.



I believe Okinawa
was always a part of Japan? The chain of mandated islands included Guam and are known as the Mariana Islands. Originally claimed by Magellan for Spain, after the 1898-99 Spanish American War the US took Guam but let Spain sell the other islands to Germany. Those included the major islands of Saipan and Tinian of Enola Gay fame. After 1918 Japan acquired control of the islands under a League of Nations mandate pursuant to the Treaty of Peace made at Versailles.

I’m sure
without knowing that the wartime performance of Japan’s submarine fleet was a great disappointment. Yes, they sank the USS Indianapolis but that was a fluke on both sides. Our subs OTOH, were responsible for sinking 80% of the tonnage of Japan’s absolutely essential commercial fleet. It has been said that by August 1945, the Japanese did not have a cargo ship larger than 500 tons.




FDR’s main focus was on Europe and giving aid to England and fighting the Nazis . Any act that could be seen to spark a war with the Axis would not have gone down well with the isolationists in Congress . Pro War Republicans? Republicans were the isolationists back then.



Absolutely. America’s power elite
were then (1941) about 99% Euro descended. WASPs. The very founding of the American government was by English speaking people. I don’t know the fractions but Im sure most of our international commerce was EASTWARD and not WESTWARD. I can however empathize with the isolation concept as late as 1939 but after the Nazi invasion of Poland, wiser heads should have given up on that. But old ways do die slowly if not hard.




I am aware of that fact [US breaking of Japan’s codes]. What you are over looking is that from time to time the [Japanese] changed their Cipher Code meaning that until it [the new one] was cracked there was no decoding of high level Japanese military traffic.

. . my memory [is] US Intel had cracked the Japanese diplomatic code known as Purple but not the military version. Also the decoding process did not take place at the speed you state; [that] did not take place until later on in the war. The last point is of little relevance due to logic and history ruling out any conspiracy theory. xpert11



Recall in 1941
the US - unlike most other world powers - did not have a secret service for gathering foreign intelligence. We relied mostly on the State department for that. Yes, we had the service connected military intelligence and naval intelligence groups. Their function was to keep us informed on the prowess of foreign military and naval equipage. Much like subscribing to “Jane’s All the World’s Ships.” Aside: Until 1945, most nations of the world relied on “Janes” for their Intel on foreign navies.

But even without
an agency tasked to ferret out strategic plans of foreign powers, that did not mean we were blind. Quite the contrary. Unlike the current president and his advisors, the people around FDR were highly educated in the Victorian and Edwardian manner. As was also FDR. See Note 3. I agree there was more likely a convergence of coincidences than any conspiracy to AID the Japanese in attacking the United States at Pearl Harbor.


Note 1.
It is impossible to navigate without a chart. The first aviation charts were strip charts and displayed an 80-mile wide corridor about the established airways. In the daytime pilots navigated along these airways with dead reckoning and after dark followed a series of flashing beacons spaced about ten miles apart. www.navfltsm.addr.com...

Note 2.
“At Dawn We Slept” by Gordon Prange & others.
FIRST REVIEW;b]
Gordon Prange was a military historian on MacArthur's staff . . He never finished this book and a couple of graduate students of his compiled, edited, and finished his work, so this is a composite production.

The basic problem is that the Japanese destroyed our Pacific Fleet with almost no losses. And someone must have been at fault. Of course, it is quite possible for no one or everyone to be at fault, but the Pearl Harbor blame game has continued for 60 years and shows no signs of stopping. This book is the best and most complete defense of Roosevelt, General George C. Marshall and other top Washington Insiders.

SECOND REVIEW
. . but after reading this account of Pearl Harbor, I am more likely to believe that the great success, including complete surprise by Japanese naval aviation was the result of a series of ill-advised decisions by the commanders at Hawaii rather than by any entity in Wash DC. The foregoing reviews are from the list of 43 reviews available at Amazon dot com.

Note 3. Part 1.
The Four Freedoms are goals famously articulated by Franklin D. Roosevelt in the State of the Union Address to the United States Congress on January 6, 1941. FDR proposed four points as the fundamental freedoms humans "everywhere in the world" ought to enjoy: 1) Freedom of speech and expression 2) Freedom of religion 3) Freedom from want 4) Freedom from fear. FDR’s inclusion of the latter two freedoms endorsed a right to economic security and an internationalist view of foreign policy that have come to be central tenets of modern American liberalism.

Note 3. Part 2.
The Atlantic Charter was drafted at the Atlantic Conference (codename Riviera) by British Prime Minister Winston Churchill and US President Franklin D. Roosevelt, aboard warships in a secure anchorage in Ship Harbour, Newfoundland and was issued as a joint declaration on 14 August 1941

The Atlantic Charter
was the basic blue-print for the Post War world and is reflected in many of the international treaties and organizations that shape our world. The Atlantic Charter was agreed to by Roosevelt and Churchill. It agreed the victors would seek no territorial gain from the war. It was made to keep "the right of all peoples to choose the form of government under which they will live" and "a permanent system of general security." en.wikipedia.org...


[edit on 12/9/2008 by donwhite]



posted on Dec, 9 2008 @ 09:55 AM
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reply to post by TrueAmerican
 


LOL, good joke eh! Roosevelt's grandson wrote a book and the History Channel has a show on the breaking of Enigma and the other code long before Pearl Harbor attack. Roosevelt moved out the carriers just before the attack cause he knew he would need them in a war in the Pacific. The American people would not get behind a war in Europe again and Roosevelt and the Japs gave them a reason to get the people behind it. Just like they always do, False Flag op will get the people behind the war let's look at history:

Louisiania sinking was to get us into WW1

Pearl Harbor was to get us into WW2

Golf of Tomkin to get us into Vietnam

U.S.S. Liberty was supposed to get us into a war with Egypt, but a Russian troller saw the false flag op and it didn't work

U.S. told Saddam we would do noting if he took Kuwait (Iraqi Territory) then we attacked when he did Gulf War 1.0

911 false flag op got us into Afghanistan, who by the way warned us about the attacks and thee was no Afghani's on the planes, only Saudi's and Egyptians. Good thing we attacked Afghanistan EH?

WMD lies got us into Gulf War 1.1 we are in now.

Edited for bad selling habits

[edit on 12/9/2008 by theindependentjournal]



posted on Dec, 9 2008 @ 10:00 AM
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reply to post by donwhite
 


Free from want? Really and Freedom from fear OMG really????

I want a Maserati and I am afraid of Spiders, when can I expect my Maserati and when will all the Spiders be dead?



posted on Dec, 9 2008 @ 10:01 AM
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Perhaps the same team was in charge of the Roswell Investigation where they determined that "wind dummies" where mistaken for alien bodies!




posted on Dec, 9 2008 @ 10:43 AM
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reply to post by theindependentjournal
 




I want a Maserati and I am afraid of Spiders, when can I expect my Maserati and when will all the Spiders be dead?


I hope you get what you deserve.



posted on Dec, 9 2008 @ 06:37 PM
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I finally found the original report, because it just appeared on that site. I guess they gave out (or sold out) choice advance pdf's prior to publication to certain news agencies who then broke the story. But here it is.

www.nsa.gov...

It's called "West Wind Clear." Hopefully we can now make our own interpretations...

Also, real nice post Don, especially for not having the original report here.


Now you have it, and maybe it would be worth a read to you.



posted on Dec, 9 2008 @ 09:54 PM
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reply to post by ItsTheQuestion
 


yup some knew,and they wanted it to happen as it served their depopulation agenda perfectly,if you look you will see that many of our histories wars and mass fatality events are actually designed,the cracks are showing,look through and see the truth,the dark heart of the world is our own future.



posted on Dec, 10 2008 @ 01:26 AM
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I don't think this is what George Bush meant when he said "We need another Pearl Harbor"

... just throwing it out there NSA boys...


... and over 7 years behind the rest of the teams... quality work.

[edit on 10-12-2008 by johnsky]



posted on Dec, 10 2008 @ 02:56 PM
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reply to post by TrueAmerican
 




Also, real nice post Don, especially for not having the original report here. Now you have it, and maybe it would be worth a read to you.



Sweet Jesus! West Wind Clear in PDF is 352 pages long. I am going to save it but I can't promise when I’ll get it all read.



[edit on 12/10/2008 by donwhite]



posted on Dec, 10 2008 @ 03:21 PM
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So you think that those that take you into a war are going to say, "Sorry about that but it was necessary inorder for us to reshape the power bases throughout the world. Yes, some of your loved ones were killed, well yes, hundreds of millions actually but how else were we going to get you to comply with our one world all controlling agenda?"

Do you sheeple actually think that any of these wars past, present and future are anything other than pre-planned, executed then ENDED (now re-read this last word) to a specified agenda by the same NWO (mystery school) elite?

I guess yes if you vote and expect things to change, or sign up to be cannon fodder and kid yourself that your getting a trade, or truly believe that politian’s are acting for the good of those they are meant to serve?

Thought so, then go back to sleep you fools and wait for the next 'necessary' conflict that will progress you not one jot, for you really do deserve it



posted on Dec, 10 2008 @ 03:31 PM
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Gulf of Tonkin was not staged / false flagged.

9 / 11 was not staged / false flagged.

All of the recent "skirmishes" were not staged / false flagged.

The alphabet orgs are all clean as whistles and would NEVER do such a thing.


All of the sheeples say BAAA-AAA-AAA...


Now line up to be shorn, your next "enemy" will be "attacking your freedoms" soon.



posted on Dec, 10 2008 @ 04:54 PM
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reply to post by mlmijyd
 


Ladies and Gentlemen of the Jury the crime is clearly a case of someone who's knows nothing about the history of the period and is resorting to meaningless labels . Clearly the claimant is unaware of of the environment that existed in post WW1 Japan . So I shall give a short summary .

My Take

Following the end of WW1 Britain terminated its alliance with Japan . Russia was amidst a civil war which meant the threat to the interests of the British Empire simply weren't there any more . The Washington Naval Conference saw Japan take a perceived back seat to the other powers . This was reflected on the home front . Along with the on set of the Great Depression came a rise in militants who ran rampant. Assassinations attempts weren't uncommon . The military were able to use the puppet status of the Emperor to take control of the government .

A further backdrop to all of this was Japan's increasing population was putting pressure on the country supply of food and natural resources . The Army was itching to go to war and they thought that they had found a soft target in political unstable China were a Civil War was raging . So elements of the Japanese were responsible for a False Flag operation on the Marco Polo Bridge . This and and other incidents or claims lead to what Japanese leaders termed the China incident otherwise known as the Japanese invasion of China .

The IJN build flat tops not because they foresaw an attack on Pearl Harbour but because they were exempted from the Washington Naval Treatment . The construction of Yamato and Musashi proves that IJN navy thinking did not switch to Air Power until Yamamoto become Commander and Chief disproves the idea that strings were being pulled by any mystery organisation .

Also external factors were used by Japan leaders to aggravate the population but on the whole internal matters were the biggest fact in what occurred in Japan during that time period .

: Judge : " The claimants total and utterly ridicules case is dismissed by the court . "

Just like Obama Birth Certificate no amount of logical reasoning will bring some conspiracy theorists back to reality .



posted on Dec, 10 2008 @ 05:11 PM
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Yup... It is a very bad sign when those in charge try to re-write history. I guess we never sank that Japanese submarine the precipitated the pearl harbor attack either....

Man... freaky. The power that be is truly attempting to re-write history....

And you thought only communist nations did such a thing



posted on Dec, 10 2008 @ 06:20 PM
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reply to post by xpert11
 




Ladies and Gentlemen of the Jury, My Take. Following the end of WW1 Britain terminated its alliance with Japan. The Washington Naval Conference saw Japan take a perceived back seat to the other powers.



5-5-3. Ratio of capital ships. For each 5 the US and UK were permitted, the Japanese could have but 3. Additionally, there was a 45,000 displaced tons limit on the capital ships. Also known as battleships. Or the British Dreadnaught. This resulted in the Germans fitting large naval rifles - land-lubbers cannon - to what was a cruiser chassis. A new class of battle-cruisers. The largest guns mounted on a US battlewagon was the 16/50s. Sixteen inches (400 mm) bore and 50 caliber (ratio of bore to barrel length). Which mean the barrel of the big gun was 50 X the bore of 16 inches or 800 inches long. Divided by 12 equals 66 feet 8 inches in length. It was capable of hurling a 2,200 lb (1,000 kg) projectile 28 miles (45 km). It is a very difficult industrial task to make a 16/50 barrel. Few nations can do that. Then or now.




Along with the on set of the Great Depression came a rise in militants who ran rampant. The military were able to use the puppet status of the Emperor to take control of the government.



The Japanese War Crimes Trials after WW2 revealed the emperor was NOT a puppet. He was deeply enmeshed in the planning and implementing of Japan’s war plans from early on. After the second atom bomb on Nagasaki the emperor began to “re-write” history. We kept him on as emperor because the Japanese people “loved” or obeyed him and he agreed to be our ally in pacifying the Japanese. He escaped the justice he so richly deserved but our approach was pure pragmatism or we followed the prescription first laid out by Machiavelli.




A further backdrop to all of this was Japan's increasing population was putting pressure on the country supply of food and natural resources. The Army was itching to go to war



I do not know any industrialized power that possess FEWER natural resources than Japan. Nor do I know of a more homogeneous population. The US is endowed by nature with more natural resources than any other 3 million square miles on the planet. We have a well mixed, polyglot population. It works well for us. For example, Polish and German immigrants pretending to be of noble birth proved invaluable to Gen. Washington in the organizing and training of our citizen solders in the 1775-1783 Revolutionary War.




The IJN build flat tops not because they foresaw an attack on Pearl Harbour but because they were exempted from the Washington Naval Treatment. The construction of Yamato and Musashi proves that IJN navy thinking did not switch to Air Power until Yamamoto become Commander and Chief . . Judge: "The claimants total and utterly ridicules case is dismissed by the court."



If we call the World War 1 aircraft the first generation, then the planes produced up until 1939-1940 would have been the second generation. The third generation would have been the successful planes of WW2. Grumman Hellcat, F6F, Lockheed Lightning P38 North American Mustang P51 and the Republic Thunderbolt P47 are examples. The 4th generation would have been the early jet planes.

I like your point so well buttressed by the reference to the 2 largest capital ships ever built, the Yamato and Musashi - 450 mm main guns compared to US 400 mm - 65,000 tons compared to our 45,000 tons and etc. The Japanese were NOT early devotees of aircraft carriers. Kudos to our Navy types who realized on December 8 that the battlewagon was from the LAST war. I believe the Japanese built 2 or 3 carriers AFTER December 7, but the US built more than 60 in the same time frame.

Aside: Have you seen the list of war materials the US shipped to the USSR via Iran in WW2? It must be true that 3/4ths of Soviet soldiers were wearing US GI boots. Not an inconsequential item in a largely infantry war. And 30,000 trucks. 10,000 airplanes. More than 3 million uniforms. And etc. 60% of our aid went through Iran, 30% via Murmansk and Archangel and 10% via Vladivostok. We suffered 3,000 KIA sailors on that ice cold voyage across the North Sea.


[edit on 12/10/2008 by donwhite]



posted on Dec, 10 2008 @ 06:57 PM
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Originally posted by titorite
Yup... It is a very bad sign when those in charge try to re-write history. I guess we never sank that Japanese submarine the precipitated the pearl harbor attack either....


I haven't had the chance to read the NSA report myself either .
Are you saying that the NSA report neglects to mention the depth charging of a miniature submarine at the entrance to Pearl Harbour ?

Conspiracy theorists are claiming prior knowledge before the miniature submarines got near Pearl Habour anyway .


reply to post by donwhite
 


There isnt a lot I can say without going off topic other then to applauded your post . I should have worded what I said about the Washington Naval Treaty better because rightly or wrongly Japanese pride took a dent . Indeed the possible or likely cover up of the true role of emperor is a conspiracy from that era worth investigating . Yamato and Musashi were the largest Battleships ever constructed post war plenty of larger capital ships were constructed by the US .



posted on Dec, 10 2008 @ 07:32 PM
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reply to post by mlmijyd
 




I guess yes if you vote and expect things to change, or sign up to be cannon fodder and kid yourself that your getting a trade, or truly believe that politicians’s are acting for the good of those they are meant to serve? Thought so, then go back to sleep you fools and wait for the next 'necessary' conflict that will progress you not one jot, for you really do deserve it



On a forged birth certificate I joined the Army National Guard at age 15. Sure, I know now they knew I was underage, but the unit was below required strength and the 5 of us from Southern Junior High School filled the bill. My 2 years in the Guard provided me with some of the best instruction in life I ever received. I did not realize the older guys had all been at war either in Europe or the Pacific. Almost all men of that age were veterans. I could have heard oral history from people who had been there but I missed that. In my somewhat extended family all 7 of the age eligible men were in uniform. The one who attained the highest rank (E7) was a conscientious objector. Many of the COs - their 201 files were marked in bold black letters "CO" - were put in front line corpsmen slots.

Later I joined the Air Force and served 5 years active duty, and 3 years reserve status. I have said all of that to say I am a peace-nik! No, I’m not schizophrenic. But neither was I a gullible fool following the plan of some far off Illuminati types. Or new world order. I chose the NG Artillery because even at 15 I knew the infantry marched to war and the artillery guys rode in trucks. I joined the AF for 4 years when I could have had either a volunteer for the draft at 2 years, or enlisted in the Army or MC for 3 year, but even as a young man I knew my vision of war was sleeping on clean sheets at night. So I opted for the AF. And I was not disappointed.

World War Two was the GOOD war. It was a rare time and I was privileged to live through it. I call it the "war we all loved." Obviously, the 400,000 kIA and their families do not share that POV with me. I enlisted in the AF during the Korean War. It was also a good war as wars go. I opposed the Vietnam War from the get-go. I fovored Iraq 1 but opposed Iraq 2. I knew there were NO WMDs there. Afghan is a place not a country so I'm not sure what I think about that one. Except I know we are losing at whatever it is we are doing there.

I suppose war is as much a part of human nature as is sex. As long as we humans have memories, we have had wars. Actually the job of being a politician is one of the MORE vital jobs in any organized society. Politicians manage - more often than not - to reach imperfect compromises between competing interests. It is often a thankless job.

Sometimes greed gets ahead of public service, as in Gov. Blagojevich’s inept handling of a routine matter. You surely are not naive enough to think the governor picks the BEST man (or woman) do you? Sweet Jesus! Tell us next about Jonah and the Whale. We could fix this if we wanted. CFR. Campaign Finance Reform. NO private money allowed in public elections. ALL campaigning paid for out of the US Treasury. Someday we’ll have that. We cannot take back our government until we stop putting in it up for sale every two years to the highest bidder.


[edit on 12/10/2008 by donwhite]




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