I'm sick of these new age people.

You read one book by some random author and that turned you against a whole demographic, eh? Is that sound critical thinking on your part? I read a book by some New Age guy and it was some of the worst #e I've ever read in my life. But all it did was to reaffirm my idea that New Age is a scam.

Now, as to science, I feel that a good deal of that is rubbish too. New Agers and scientists have a standing not too different from each other. They both rely on a strange form of money worship that doesn't sit well with me. They believe it because it makes them feel like they know something incomprehensible to the uninitiated.


QM is still working hard to confirm that what we believe we already know is right. Sad. They are doing some interesting things, yes, but it's just expounding on our ego-based science so ... blah.

Now, when you get to theoretical physics, things become interesting. And it is so interesting because it, in many ways, "confirms" some of our oldest ideas that developed long before our "modern" concept of "science" did. Superstring theory is particularly relevant because there we see the dimensions coming into focus.

Our scientific progress is too slow, almost inert, owing to the fact that we are still trying to prove those tenets that have brought us to this place in science. We close our eyes to what is actually happening so that we can maintain the status quo and not challenge those who came before us. Bad, bad science. But it's all due to the need for "peer review". Once we move beyond that practice, things will open up. Science and all other academia will finally be able to breathe again.

The one hope that I see is that we will find that Creator that so many of our greatest thinkers have known to exist. That same Creator exists here with our greatest spiritual thinkers too. It is that unification that we seek.

reply to post by CosmicEgg


You're confusing theoretical science with mainstream science. There are a lot of fields in science that are making a lot of progress. Computers wouldn't be where they are today without science to back them up. The auto industry is being pressured into making fuel efficient cars... without science none of this would be possible and it would only be a science fiction idea. Science is the process of taking fantasy and implementing it into reality.

Science isn't slow... it's a process... it would take the culmination of all of history to see the result of all work that science has given to mankind. Yes, science has its flaws but I don't think you're giving it enough credit. What these people in these theoretical science fields that study quantum physics try to do is that they try to expand our imagination as to what's possible... these new age gurus don't use science... they are like people who manipulate statistics to prove their point.

All these theoretical physicists are trying to do is to understand Quantum Physics. Quantum Physics is very real and is not BS and has been very beneficial to science, for example, it has changed the way we thought about Newtonian physics. They aren't trying to confirm what we already know they are trying to scientifically PROVE what we know and then we can form our own opinion after that. There are a lot of phonies in science... yes... but there are also a lot of genuine articles. My gripe of these new age people is that they try to make it seem like Quantum Physics can rapidly change the way we perceive the world... which may be true... it might be able to... but until any of their speculation is proven.... all of it is JUST THAT: Speculation.

When you broaden your knowledge of how you perceive things and what it is you actually are perceiving, you are more aptly able to translate knowledge into wisdom, applicable intelligence, so uhh doesn't that affect how we view this "world". What's so speculative? This thread is weird and poorly conceived. My opinion is mine also.

edit: you said quantum physics reveals nothing about our mind, you are not right. Our minds operate in a certain manner.. we experience what our minds allow us. So yes, QP does teach us about ourselves, and the relationship our senses have with their surroundings.

Even more so, all technology begins as concept within the mind... all personal action is just that, personal. That which changes a persons thought process changes their actions, changes what they build, create and construct within all fields of science. You are wrong.

[edit on 7-12-2008 by depth om]

reply to post by depth om


I don't think it's poorly conceived. I'm criticizing the people that think that somehow people can be enlightened. I can have an opinion too! Just because I'm skeptical about enlightenment doesn't mean I'm wrong. I'm skeptical about enlightenment because I do not believe it is possible that one can be completely enlightened. How is that thinking flawed? I do not believe it is. I also do not believe these people are using real science to prove their claims. So I think their ideas are flawed and poorly conceived.

Do you know what quantum physics is? Quantum physics is not about the mind but it's about finding other dimension in physical space time... enlightenment is a different thing from quantum pyhsics.

The Basics of String Theory

At its core, string theory uses a model of one-dimensional "strings" in place of the zero-dimensional particles of quantum physics. These strings, the size of the Planck length (i.e. 10-35 m) vibrate at specific resonant frequencies. The formulas that result from string theory predict more than four dimensions (10 or 11 in the most common variants, though on version requires 26 dimensions), but the extra dimensions are "curled up" within the Planck length.
String theory was initially developed in the 1970s in an attempt to explain some inconsistencies with the energy behavior of hadrons and other fundamental particles of physics.

As with much of quantum physics, the mathematics that applies to string theory cannot be uniquely solved. Physicists must apply perturbation theory to obtain a series of approximated solutions. Such solutions, of course, include assumptions which may or may not be true.

The driving hope behind this work is that it will result in a "theory of everything," including a solution to the problem of quantum gravity, to reconcile quantum physics with general relativity, thus reconciling the fundamental forces of physics.

physics.about.com...

I would recommend reading about the M theory, the Multiverse, and the Quantum Theory, because I don't think that it really is intended to change the way we think about our minds.

[edit on 7-12-2008 by Frankidealist35]

Originally posted by Frankidealist35
reply to post by Merriman Weir

 

Science is meant for the benefit of humankind. I don't think it was intended to get people into the line of thinking like these gurus claim to think. I am not a theoretical physics major... I am majoring in political science... which is pretty much a social science... it is NOT a science in the way that theoretical physicist is so please don't expect me to respond with scientific answers all the time. Science is meant so we can go into space and so we can develop all these new technologies to benefit society.

I think you're seeing science is a very strange, detached light. 'Hard' science, far less-exotic than quantum mechanics also inspires philosophies and 'lines of thinking'. It's always been the case with science. Science has always created new ways of looking at the world and our place in it whether it's Copernicus, the Renaissance, or the early 20th C. Futurists.

But, this one book I read by Sylvia Brown was the tipping point that caused me to get mad at them... it's not that I am against their ideas... it's that they scam so many people into buying so many books and their ideas have gotten into pop culture.

I'm not sure it's a scam if they actually believe what they're selling themselves. Obviously if they're falling asleep laughing to themselves on a bed with mattress stuffed with money then, yes. However, I really do believe that most of these people truly believe what they peddle. To me, that's no different than any scientific 'fact' that's been proven wrong over the years.

They try to get people to think that quantum physics is about mysticism when it's about alternative Universes. I only am against their ideas because they use phony science to back them up. I think they would do a better job at explaining their ideas if they had actual science backing them up. Right now all of what they're doing is speculation, and, their speculation has been proven wrong time and time again.

I'm not sure, whilst I don't subscribe to their way of thinking, I think you're dealing these people a bit of an unfair hand to be honest. So much of quantum mechanics is at the theoretical speculative stage - perhaps much of it always will be - that I don't think anyone is really in a position to say with complete certainty what quantum mechanics is all about and how it should be used.

Your argument is a little weird too in that you start a thread about people using quantum mechanics to back-up their beliefs, then you start arguing that they should use "actual science". Isn't much of your vexation based around that they are using "actual science" in the first place?

reply to post by Frankidealist35


These theories were not dug up from the ground they are based upon observation of data by a humans organic receptors using man made machines designed by those same faculties. I think my previous edit can cover what you added.

reply to post by Merriman Weir

I think you're seeing science is a very strange, detached light. 'Hard' science, far less-exotic than quantum mechanics also inspires philosophies and 'lines of thinking'. It's always been the case with science. Science has always created new ways of looking at the world and our place in it whether it's Copernicus, the Renaissance, or the early 20th C. Futurists.

These people aren't using science. They have good ideas... but they try to connect two unrelated things to each other... to prove one big idea... causality doesn't work that way.

I'm not sure it's a scam if they actually believe what they're selling themselves. Obviously if they're falling asleep laughing to themselves on a bed with mattress stuffed with money then, yes. However, I really do believe that most of these people truly believe what they peddle. To me, that's no different than any scientific 'fact' that's been proven wrong over the years.

It is a SCAM. She was asked by James Rhandi to prove her ideas, and she didn't contact him. If she really is a psychic wouldn't she have been able to contact him or at least look up his number in a phonebook? It is different from other scientific facts that have been proven wrong in that these other scientific facts lead to other real scientific facts... nothing beneficial has really come about from these spiritual gurus... except for helping people become more enlightened.

They try to get people to think that quantum physics is about mysticism when it's about alternative Universes. I only am against their ideas because they use phony science to back them up. I think they would do a better job at explaining their ideas if they had actual science backing them up. Right now all of what they're doing is speculation, and, their speculation has been proven wrong time and time again.

I'm not sure, whilst I don't subscribe to their way of thinking, I think you're dealing these people a bit of an unfair hand to be honest. So much of quantum mechanics is at the theoretical speculative stage - perhaps much of it always will be - that I don't think anyone is really in a position to say with complete certainty what quantum mechanics is all about and how it should be used.

Maybe I am, I am just mad at how they are passing off their opinions as facts.

Your argument is a little weird too in that you start a thread about people using quantum mechanics to back-up their beliefs, then you start arguing that they should use "actual science". Isn't much of your vexation based around that they are using "actual science" in the first place?

I was saying that they should understand what Quantum Physics is and understand other scientific facts, theories, and laws before they go on to talk about enlightenment principles.

[edit on 7-12-2008 by Frankidealist35]

[edit on 7-12-2008 by Frankidealist35]

reply to post by depth om


Observation isn't proof enough. People thought that the Earth was the center of the Universe because they observed all the other stars outside of the Universe and thought that they all resolved around Earth.

I understand the basis. The micro is as large as the macro and the differences in interaction between objects within the "strata of sizes" are enormous. An electric knot.

Yeah...quantum mechanics and new agers dont mix,just mention about vibrating at a frequency to shift to some dimensional plane where you have super powers or some other crap...throw in some action with entities or beings...all new agers sound the exact same...its boring,tedious drivel...but it takes all sorts i guess,alot of crazies on ats.

reply to post by Frankidealist35


Proof of what, I was just trying to explain that all human science is derived from the mind.

Originally posted by Frankidealist35
reply to post by CosmicEgg

 

You're confusing theoretical science with mainstream science. There are a lot of fields in science that are making a lot of progress. Computers wouldn't be where they are today without science to back them up. The auto industry is being pressured into making fuel efficient cars... without science none of this would be possible and it would only be a science fiction idea. Science is the process of taking fantasy and implementing it into reality.

Sorry, dear. I'm doing no such thing. I believe I made a clear distinction at which point I spoke to QM and to theoretical. At no point did I say that mainstream science produced no effect. I said that it is at this point essentially inert. At this point. Perhaps you could do some research on the science that is shelved because of "peer review" and other agendas.

Science isn't slow... it's a process... it would take the culmination of all of history to see the result of all work that science has given to mankind. Yes, science has its flaws but I don't think you're giving it enough credit. What these people in these theoretical science fields that study quantum physics try to do is that they try to expand our imagination as to what's possible... these new age gurus don't use science... they are like people who manipulate statistics to prove their point.

You are confusing QM with theoretical physics. Not the same thing, my friend. And you may say and think what you like about mainstream science - and so will I. Perhaps you aren't giving spiritualists enough credit.

As for New Age gurus, why are you still harping? Did you *not* read what I said up there? Mainstream science = New Age gurus. Let's try not to confuse spiritualists and New Agers, please.

All these theoretical physicists are trying to do is to understand Quantum Physics. Quantum Physics is very real and is not BS and has been very beneficial to science, for example, it has changed the way we thought about Newtonian physics.

That was a long time in coming though, held back by those who needed to cling to their belief systems. Does that remind you of anything?

They aren't trying to confirm what we already know they are trying to scientifically PROVE what we know and then we can form our own opinion after that.

They aren't trying to confirm it, they're trying to prove it. Are you saying that we had interpreted what we saw as one thing and now we're making an earnest effort to prove it absolutely? What's changed? It's all in the attitude.

There are a lot of phonies in science... yes... but there are also a lot of genuine articles. My gripe of these new age people is that they try to make it seem like Quantum Physics can rapidly change the way we perceive the world... which may be true... it might be able to... but until any of their speculation is proven.... all of it is JUST THAT: Speculation.

You are grouping New Agers and spiritualists in the same lot. If you can do that then there's no reason to separate mainstream, money-grubbing scientists from scientists who are interested in finding the truth. You seem to have spent a lot of effort doing exactly what you erroneously accused me of doing.

Look, from my youth I've followed the path of scientific progress - and lack thereof. I'm not a member of the scientific community *because* the lack of objectivity in science was an insurmountable obstacle to when I set about studying in my youth. I had to leave the country of my birth *because* there were insurmountable obstacles to my ability to find peace there. My life has been an exercise in finding "my place" in every possible sense.

Enlightenment is the way to the truth in the same way as science is. They both lead to the same place. Is that comprehensible to you?

reply to post by Solomons


I personally am not a "new-ager" and these days that can mean anything. But, don't we all ascribe or have in our past indulged in fallacy? No one ever reaches the pinnacle of knowledge. A good start is realizing we all got here in the same way, and no one is perfected.

reply to post by Frankidealist35


I would invite you to prove that. You seem so sure. It makes me fairly certain that you're having some crisis of ego related to your belief in science that makes you lash out at spiritualism. And please, let's not have the "New Age = Spiritualism" thing anymore. They are not synonymous.

Edit to add point out that the Dalai Lama is not a New Ager anymore than Kaku is a mainstream scientist.

[edit on 7/12/2008 by CosmicEgg]

Yeah Man! What's with all the negitivitiy man! You're vibrating hate is mistrust, and that's putting a negitive aura around the universe man.

Originally posted by Frankidealist35
They try to get people to think that quantum physics is about mysticism when it's about alternative Universes.

and you have contributed to the problem, and placed yourself in the same bucket as the "new agers" by making the above quoted statement.

i do not care to get too deep into a discussion about quantum theory....but alternative universes is a footnote.

i would merely like to point out that the reason this quantum new-age conflation has happened is that quantum physics uses words that new agers simply adore. i swear to god...when i hear someone entagle the word "dimension" into their strange brew, thinking that they are using science to support their batty claims yet completely misunderstanding the concepts involved.....ugh!

and now there are movies about it just confusing people all the more. my mormon mother is even jumping aboard (with "the secret").

and the most fun of all of it is that Quantum Mechanics may not even be necessary to explain the universe! it is entirely possible that physics has been barking up the wrong tree for almost 100 years now!

vibrate that!

edit for quote tags

[edit on 7-12-2008 by tgidkp]

Not sure, but...

This might just be the most fun thread I've seen in a while..

Dang stinky hippies!

Originally posted by CosmicEgg

Originally posted by Frankidealist35
reply to post by CosmicEgg

 

You're confusing theoretical science with mainstream science. There are a lot of fields in science that are making a lot of progress. Computers wouldn't be where they are today without science to back them up. The auto industry is being pressured into making fuel efficient cars... without science none of this would be possible and it would only be a science fiction idea. Science is the process of taking fantasy and implementing it into reality.

Sorry, dear. I'm doing no such thing. I believe I made a clear distinction at which point I spoke to QM and to theoretical. At no point did I say that mainstream science produced no effect. I said that it is at this point essentially inert. At this point. Perhaps you could do some research on the science that is shelved because of "peer review" and other agendas.

I don't understand your point. What is this scientific agenda you speak of? How is science inert? Are you completely ignorant of the fields that are studying biotechnology and nanotechnology which could be potentially beneficial to all of the human race?

You are confusing QM with theoretical physics. Not the same thing, my friend. And you may say and think what you like about mainstream science - and so will I. Perhaps you aren't giving spiritualists enough credit.

No, I'm putting the QM people that have theories about this stuff in the same group of theoretical physicists people. These ideas come out of the realms of theoretical physicists first before they become real science. I am giving spiritualists the credit they deserve. I have huge respect for people who are these exorcists and these spirit mediums but NONE for these people who have all these elaborate views...

As for New Age gurus, why are you still harping? Did you *not* read what I said up there? Mainstream science = New Age gurus. Let's try not to confuse spiritualists and New Agers, please.

Excuse me? Mainstream science isn't new age gurus... these new age gurus are what is making people think that mainstream science is just a bunch of gurus who want to understand the Universe. You're confusing the two groups of people.

All these theoretical physicists are trying to do is to understand Quantum Physics. Quantum Physics is very real and is not BS and has been very beneficial to science, for example, it has changed the way we thought about Newtonian physics.

That was a long time in coming though, held back by those who needed to cling to their belief systems. Does that remind you of anything?
Yeah, like how you repeadiately try to argue that spirituality has standing without backing up your proofs with real science?

They aren't trying to confirm it, they're trying to prove it. Are you saying that we had interpreted what we saw as one thing and now we're making an earnest effort to prove it absolutely? What's changed? It's all in the attitude.

What I was saying is that they're talking about their ideas as facts and until that's proven THAT IS BAD. It's just speculation. What's changed is that their attitude is that their opinion is right and that it can be proven by science. Yet, science hasn't proven it yet.

There are a lot of phonies in science... yes... but there are also a lot of genuine articles. My gripe of these new age people is that they try to make it seem like Quantum Physics can rapidly change the way we perceive the world... which may be true... it might be able to... but until any of their speculation is proven.... all of it is JUST THAT: Speculation.

You are grouping New Agers and spiritualists in the same lot. If you can do that then there's no reason to separate mainstream, money-grubbing scientists from scientists who are interested in finding the truth. You seem to have spent a lot of effort doing exactly what you erroneously accused me of doing.
Yes there are reasons to, because these people who are interested in finding the truth generally do make contributions beneficial to human kind. Nikola Tesla, was unfairly discredited, but he made inventions like the radio and worked out how wireless technology would work and you'll never hear about that in text books. I'm not attacking you in any way, I'm attacking these ideas, which haven't been proven, and these people that are new age gurus are no different from these phony people in science who try to make money as you've said. There are people interested in the truth like Nikola Tesla. Please don't confuse the two groups of people.

Look, from my youth I've followed the path of scientific progress - and lack thereof. I'm not a member of the scientific community *because* the lack of objectivity in science was an insurmountable obstacle to when I set about studying in my youth. I had to leave the country of my birth *because* there were insurmountable obstacles to my ability to find peace there. My life has been an exercise in finding "my place" in every possible sense.

I understand. Everyone has their own bias. I think the different between me and you is that I know this and I am not alarmed by the amount of bias that people have and that has left me undeterred from my beliefs about science.

Enlightenment is the way to the truth in the same way as science is. They both lead to the same place. Is that comprehensible to you?

Yes, because I still maintain that it is impossible to be completely enlightened. Is that comprehensible to you?

Originally posted by Frankidealist35

I don't hate spirituality. I just hate these new age people [...]

sincere question, why do you hate them? sorry if this was already asked or seems like irrelevant question, but i'd like you to look within yourself and ask why do you hate? this is just my opinion, but hatred is hurting you. why do you even mind what they are saying or doing? have they ever done anything harmful to you? where does your anger flow from? think about starwars and jedi teachings

Originally posted by Incarnated

Please take this as the scarcasim it's meant to be.

I'm going to find one of these new agey people in the piles of dying and dead from the 2012 phenomenon, and I'm going to ask them, "What happened man, you couldn't hold the vibrations?"...

What Phenomena are you referring too? and are you sure that if there is a pile of dying and dead, that you will not be amongst them?

Back on topic, OP you surely cant generalise and hate every one just because a book disturbed you? if that was the way of the World, then I would and so would many many millions of others, would hate Christians because of the Bible, or Muslims because of the Qua'ran.

I have to agree with you about so called New Ageism, I have noticed a trend as of late, were it seems, some people have decided to turn New Ageism into an organised religion of sorts.

I've spent a lot of time amongst different people with many different religious beliefs ( I believe to understand others religion, is to spend time there amongst them in their places of worship, in an honourable way, Honouring anothers temple etc) and I have to say, New Agers do drive me insane sometimes, all the feelings of something bumping them, feeling the force, and the one that really gets up my nose, are the traditionalists, the ones who think doing something the way they did it 1000 yrs ago is the only way to live, as I tell them often, I have never heard so much crap in my life.

From the Native American horses mouth so to speak, if there would have been dremels around when we were making our tools, you think we would have ignored them, in favour of many more hours of work? the answer is a huge no, of course they would have used them, like all other tools available, thats what they are tools, the whole idea behind a tool, is to make things easier, not spiritual.

This is becoming more and more of the realisation, running around dressed like a lawyer does not make it so , making a sandwich does not make you a chef etc.

And IMO that is where the use of Quantum Physics is being used, just because it fits into someone's ideology, or the beginning of a new organised religion.

I have lived my life as a pagan all my life, my faith has nothing to do with a sacred anything, it just is, its not about running around covered in wode, polishing my sword with human body fluids, or wanting technology to be destroyed, and running around dressed in rabbit skin, it is and always has been about trying to understand what is around me, trying to become a part of it, not being it, being at peace with myself, Loving and adoring Nature, with Nature being who I worship, it also doesn't mean I don't eat meat, or won't run on the grass, and sure I feel a connection, it does not mean I have magical powers, or that I am any better than anyone else.

It makes me happy believe it or not, when people go to church and do whatever they do, not because of the belief they follow, but because in some way they have found a spiritual meaning to their lives, at the same time I realise that within that church, there are those who are there only to use it to control others, a small minority who by words alone can convince anyone of almost anything, and that is where I believe the use of Quantum Physics is now coming into play, a voice of reason so to speak.

The day I need a fad, a building, a book, or to feel guilty about the way I have done something, is the day I no longer wish to be here on this World.

IMO spirituality is the most personal experience any Being can have, that experience is nothing to do with anyone else, the confession box is only a way to discover how people are thinking, and to punish you if you stray away from the teachings, find a place which makes you happy, then sit and contemplate if something bothers you, I am sure the Creator would rather you sit amongst their creation in AWE, than inside a building paid for by someone wanting their name to be ever associated with their name, and called the house of GOD.

Is it fair to hate a whole bunch of people based on the writings of one person? not in any sense of the word, is it the book you have a problem with? the science, or the people?

The point of my post? there will always be those, in every belief system, who want more, its what they do to get more, that is the root of most of the problems, because at the heart of what they want, are people in the way, so they either get pushed aside, or become convinced by words, that suffering is a necessary evil to be one with GOD.

An example would be, if you go to the place of the infadel, and set of this explosive vest and kill them and yourself, you will be rewarded in heaven with 100 virgins (just a plucked number) and become a martyr to your people, if that is really what these people believe then why are they not wearing the vest? if it is such an Honour, why weren't they the first to execute one of these missions? if the Cardinal is so upset by the images of children starving, why wont he share his wealth and food? why does he pass around a collection tray, instead of passing around a plate of food? why are the temple doors only opened on fixed days? why not open the doors permanently? no matter what guise it comes in, it isn't for anyone's benefit but those in control.