Was Judas the Traitor a Good Guy, While Paul the Apostle a Bad One?

Judas:
Judas was not alone in his betrayal of Jesus on that fateful night. As has already been noted, though in a different context, Peter himself betrayed Christ with his denial and the other apostles (bar one) scattered. Indeed, until Pentecost, they continued to keep themselves hidden away. Judas' greatest "sin" was not the betrayal in itself but the despair which followed and led him to his own tree and his own death. Where Christ took to His for all people's, Judas took to his for himself.
Unlike the other apostles, and Peter especially, he did not wait with no matter how minimal a hope for Christ and to receive His forgiveness. Judas wanted Christ to the be the Messiah that Jesus was accussed of being and crucified for - a political leader to free Israel from physical bondage to Rome. It is most likely that when he betrayed Jesus he thought it would be the catalyst to get Jesus to reveal Himself as an earthly King to overthrow the Roman occupation. When he understood it was a different liberation Jesus offered he did not wait to receive that liberation himself but took his own life.

Paul:
The charge of difference between the message of Christ and Paul's writings confounds me. Paul is an integral part of that first post Incarnation Church where there was the essential duty of maintaining the message of Christ against the deliberate (though well-meaning) attacks of those who wished to distort Christ's message to suit their own agendas (why we still need the apostolic office today so evidently.) Paul's writings are specifically to the Churches to correct error and commend fidelity, as are the other apostolic writings of this time. This authority is guaranteed by the gift of the Spirit, given by Christ for that very purpose to maintain and understand fully the words Chrst spoke before His death which were not understood fuilly until after His death.
This, of course, is where anything I write comes up against the huge obstacle of others questioning the Canon of Scripture and the imagined purpose of those accussed of manipulating its composition to serve their own ends. The evidence of Scripture is itself questioned and cherry picked. I believe unquestioningly that the Scriptures have been transmitted to us in their form not by "satan" but by a Spirit guided Church acting in accordance with that Counsellor given by Christ Himself.

Misogynism:
The modernist accusation of misogynism against Paul and the Church is a consequence of a lack of differentiation between power and authority. The Church is observed with its male hierarchy and Paul is quoted for admonishing women to keep silent in the assembly. The genders do have their particular, but not unequal, roles in the Church. The feminine has the enromous responsibility of being the first manifestation of tradition in the lives of people in the maternal commission. Saint Augustine and Saint Monica are an ancient example of this. More signifigant of course is the relationship between Christ and Mary: the wedding feast at Cana shows the quiet authority of the feminine. Mary herself is the first among saints in the Church. The quiet authority of the feminine acts as a counterpoint to the compelling authority of the masculine - both are equivalent. This maternal authority extends even to those who are celebrated for their virginity and lack of children with the example of St Catherine of Sienna being particularly outstanding - it was she who quietly convinced Pope Gregory XI to return the papacy to Rome from Avignon. St Teresa of Avila, transformed a whole order and refreshed the spirituality of the Church. In recent years Mother Teresa tempered the masculinity of capitalism with her maternal care for the poor and outcast. The desire to make roles equivalent in the Church between genders threatens the equivalence of the feminine and masculine authority - two seperate, distinct, but equal voices required for the full fruition of the believer.

Wedding Chamber:
This "sacrament" is a myth and distortion of something which, despite claims to the contrary, is persistently used in catechesis as an analogy for the love of God for His Church - The Bridegroom and the Bride. The wedding chamber is Calvary constantly revisited in the Mass. The Preface to the Eucharistic Prayer for Marriage expresses this beautifully:
"Father, all-powerful and ever-living God, we do well always and everywhere to give you thanks through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Through him you entered into a new covenant with your people.
You restored the human race to grace in the saving mystery of redemption.
You gave us a share in the divine life through our union with Christ.
You made us heirs of Christ’s eternal glory.
This outpouring of love in the new covenant of grace is symbolised in the marriage covenant that seals the love of husband and wife and reflects your divine plan of love."
The collect for a Nuptial Mass states explicitly:
"Father, you have made the bond of marriage a holy mystery, a symbol of Christ's love for his Church."

Judas is the Yoseph of the 12 Tribes. He is the brother that the others, with exception of Simion who wanted to protect his youngest brother, plotted against Joseph (by the way Joseph means "let him add" and "expansion".

Yoseph is also Yaw-fith or Japith.

All the bible stories are running at once, but from different view points. You are a universe to yourself and a testament to yourself, so that you are the experience and the witness of the experience....conscience.

Yoseph (funny phonetical phenom=Yusa-USA) bore two sons. First the south, Manassa means "forgetful in the land of my captivity" and second the north Ephraim means "Double fruitfulness".

Remember God does not change and is true, there fore there is no New covenant only the one "Christ" must fulfill, to every last person on earth has received the God spell, which is a spell of blindness and of confusion. This blindness is brought over us so that we may breed "to be fruitful and multiply"

We are Adam still who is myriads and myriads of Generations not one man. We are Cain (Spear) and Able(Haughty). and the stories are set in a indwelling pattern of ring within ring and all are simultanious...."even to this day"

Manasseh, the south, was supposed to receive the blessing of Israel (means "he will rule as god" being older, who is a "Christ". side note. Notice "NASSEH...this comes from Hebrew NASA="To lift up"...N.A.S.A. Ever think about the space program being a priest Hood" complete with calculated "windows", Fire on the Alter, 7 priests...sacrifice.....

When ever the priests went in to serve they had to where special linens that they had to take off and not wear outside of the temple. Not to mention the use of the Ephod/Ipod...

Peace


[edit on 6-12-2008 by letthereaderunderstand]

Oh, yes, you are singing to the choir here!

What I did not know then and what escapes the vast majority of Christianity in today's world is that many of the stories of these "solar gods" and "godmen" down through history which parallel the events in the life of the New Testament "Christ" as found in the New Testament and which appear at first thought to be apparently historical were understood only allegorically in the beginning. This "pattern" of the Descent of the Soul would be acknowledge by nation after nation down through recorded time. This explains why that all these Sungods, the stories of Osiris, Horus, Dionysus, Attis, Adonis, Mithra, and a host of others, read like the New Testament "Jesus Story".

This is a thread that weaves itself through time, isn't it?

It brings up the question; why does the story keep getting repeated? What do the Gods have in mind that they feel the need to repeat this story over and over?

This is where my interest and divine connection come in (I have been told before that I have Gnostic leanings, but as with all beliefs...I feel it is important to weigh the information and use my senses to filter truth from lies!

A Christian would discount this repeated trend as it devalues their beliefs, but I take it further and ask, "How does this fit "The Gods" Game plan?"

Here is an interesting thread on Scribd by a person identifying himself/herself as; Insider, and it resonates with me, as some of what he talks about I have been told also:

Insider Says:

Clause: Take what you want and leave the rest!

Thank you for your post and research!!

These posts are fulfilling scripture to a tee .
Sorry Matrix but I disagree .......

Calling evil good and good evil .
Mal 2:17 Ye have wearied the LORD with your words. Yet ye say, Wherein have we wearied [him]? When ye say, Every one that doeth evil [is] good in the sight of the LORD, and he delighteth in them; or, Where [is] the God of judgment?

Isa 5:20 Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!

Isa 5:21 Woe unto [them that are] wise in their own eyes, and prudent in their own sight!

Isa 5:22 Woe unto [them that are] mighty to drink wine, and men of strength to mingle strong drink:

Isa 5:23 Which justify the wicked for reward, and take away the righteousness of the righteous from him!

Isa 5:24 Therefore as the fire devoureth the stubble, and the flame consumeth the chaff, [so] their root shall be as rottenness, and their blossom shall go up as dust: because they have cast away the law of the LORD of hosts, and despised the word of the Holy One of Israel.

reply to post by Myrtales Instinct

So to lump Paul in with Satan is just wrong, in my opinion. No one has ever given the gift that keeps on giving, except Jesus - and that is of his spirit - his Holy Spirit. People who are part of this new blood covenant can see Paul objectively for what he did contribute. The Bible says we will "all be taught by God" not just the "men".

You and I of course look at the whole NT in a different light from each other.

I Believe Satan was, and is, working with the rest of the Gods, and is only man's adversary, not Jah's. He used Paul to create Christianity with all of its Swiss cheese workings.

I seen you quoted Pagels - she's smart but she don't really know the truth, and the evidence for that lies in her guesswork.

Ah, but perhaps she is being used by Jah only as one spoke in the wheel. The object is to not worship anyone's writings, nor the individual, this I apply to the Bible and its writers, also.

I look, and am used, to find the "Sacred Secrets" within the pages of the Bible and other texts. The actual Truth is out there, but one must put the blinders aside.

I can tell you this much - whatever I say from this point on - puts me in Judas' shoes. That may not make sense to you now, but maybe someday it will.

Oh, believe me, I am not new to this scenario!

reply to post by Supercertari


I respect your views and the right to have them!

We of course differ and that is why I have done this thread to begin with...the many that are like myself who are no longer satisfied with the teachings and find too many inconsistencies.

This, of course, is where anything I write comes up against the huge obstacle of others questioning the Canon of Scripture and the imagined purpose of those accussed of manipulating its composition to serve their own ends. The evidence of Scripture is itself questioned and cherry picked. I believe unquestioningly that the Scriptures have been transmitted to us in their form not by "satan" but by a Spirit guided Church acting in accordance with that Counsellor given by Christ Himself.

Having been a former Christian I did at one time agree with you and the other Christians. Since none of the Bible is based on original texts we can therefore be allowed to question why Jah chose to not support the Bible with his actual words, nor his spirit to make sure that it was recorded correctly. These would be miracles that would not be beyond him.

Satan is actually a very valuable player in this scheme, and is the major counterpart to Judas! This is one of the hidden clues in the Bible!

reply to post by letthereaderunderstand


I am not sure I understood everything you wrote, but I thank you anyway!!

Remember God does not change and is true,

This to me is very debatable!

there fore there is no New covenant only the one "Christ" must fulfill, to every last person on earth has received the God spell, which is a spell of blindness and of confusion. This blindness is brought over us so that we may breed "to be fruitful and multiply"

Well, perhaps it is time that the blindness ends?

I think that the Gods are tying together all the strings from all the Holy Books, and science, and physics, and is formulating a complete understanding of the cosmos, with an accurate understanding of how heavenly congress fits into a whole Universal theme.

reply to post by Simplynoone


Yes, thank you for your contribution. We are getting to know each other a bit and I really respect you!

We both know that I won't fall into that religious reasoning and that the scriptures have a double edge to them. It is my journey to discover what they are!

The thing that we both have in common however, is our great belief that God/Creative designer, does exist, and have both had spiritual experiences that cannot be explained easily with words.

It is my belief, life experience, and divine connection, that has led me to understand that spirituality is one that needs to grow, and take in new information, and that it can mean the requirement of changing from the "old ways," to new enlightenment. Hence, questioning the Bible at every turn with the knowledge that Jah can enlighten and correct me, where I need it.

Thank you!

reply to post by MatrixProphet
I think you expressed a view that many have dared only to think.I have pondered and wrestled with these ideas also.It truly brings meaning to the scripture that says "work out your own salvation with fear and trembling!"I cant help but feel that there has been a deliberate tampering so as to hide the truth.Pauls gospels definitely have a differant flavor when compared to Jesus teachings a differant feeling altogether.

Judas was first to follow, and was only doing as told, where do you think they got money for last supper. Jesus and John the Baptist, Mary were all Essenes, Jesus was spoken of in dead sea scrolls, the church in Rome does not want this info out.

reply to post by Bnmssnit

I think you expressed a view that many have dared only to think.I have pondered and wrestled with these ideas also.It truly brings meaning to the scripture that says "work out your own salvation with fear and trembling!"I cant help but feel that there has been a deliberate tampering so as to hide the truth.Pauls gospels definitely have a differant flavor when compared to Jesus teachings a differant feeling altogether.

Oh, thank you for your post! There is always that hundred monkey theory...if you are thinking something unique, there is little doubt that there are 100 other people thinking the same thing! Just some of us are forced to speak it!

It's called "forced" bravery!

reply to post by googolplex

the church in Rome does not want this info out.

Won't it be fun when the Vatican is stormed and all the oldest texts are revealed? I bet they shudder, using their super security systems to stave it off as long as possible.

Why didn't the romans know what the emperor's most wanted man looked like? they needed judas to kiss him on the cheeks to point him out..sounds a bit off to me..course i believe the whole books is fiction but still like to discuss it...

reply to post by Solomons

Why didn't the romans know what the emperor's most wanted man looked like? they needed judas to kiss him on the cheeks to point him out..sounds a bit off to me..course i believe the whole books is fiction but still like to discuss it...

Yes, perhaps fiction within non-fiction? Or a lie within a lie, within the Truth?

Matrix ..can you tell me then why they killed Paul if he was a false prophet ?
They would not have killed him if he was not teaching preaching truth ...it is the truth that gets people killed ....

One thing we may agree on Matrix (besides what you brought up that we do agree on) .....is that I do believe that satan is used by GOD ...obviously everything satan does God allowed it ...and then God turns it around for good in so many different areas it is unreal .....
Or at least that is what I myself have seen with my own life .I have been put through alot ...and have seen much evil ...and when I look back and see the whole picture of what all has happened to me ...I see that all of it was worked out for good ...and was all for a purpose ..................

No no no no no.....Paul was the cute one!!!!!

reply to post by MatrixProphet


It seems your goal on ATS is to propagate ignorance by repeating the same old nonesense time after time, hoping enough people don't know their Bible or have missed/forgotten previous rebuttals of these same old claims.

Your 'Paul was the anti-Christ' bunkum was shown up for what it is way back here:

Christ's view of Paul

...i.e. 100% anti-christian.

As for your preposterous claim regarding Judas:

Did Jesus show bad judgment, or did he see a future traitor and so therefore, a useful tool? Or did he use one of his closest, most honorable loving friends...

The answer becomes perfectly clear when people really look at where you're coming from:

The Bible according to MatrixProphet: “The Bible is a lie, within a lie, within the Truth.”

All people need to do is swap "Matrix" for "a False".

Enough said.

Judas wasn't a bad person per say He was just in the flesh and lacked spiritual wisdom. The jews wanted to fight for the future kingdom and wanted a conquering king. All Judas tried to do was force Jesus's hand so He would take the kingdom and conquer the romans. He had no idea that Jesus's kingdom was spiritual and that the Jews would have to wait a long time before it became a physical kingdom.

MatrixProphet, you might want to read this short story by JL Borges called "Three Versions of Judas", which also works as a theological essay.

By the way, this is my first post on ATS, which I stumbled upon only this week. Greetings from Argentina!

Matrix ..do you also think John was a false prophet ?

Here is what he said about Judas ..
John says JESUS said these things that he is writing .
Jhn 17:1 These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:

Judas was the son of perdition ...
Jhn 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.