How could anyone possibly take religion seriously?

Originally posted by baseball101
edit to add: if you are a non-believer, what's the worst that could happen for believing? you get let down after you die? big deal you're already dead.

But this misses the point – I don't think most of us are non-believers because we choose not to believe in God; we are non-believers because we can't believe in God.

At least that's true for me. And I've tried really hard at various points in my life to believe that there is a higher consciousness at work that designed and created the Universe, and I just can't buy it. It makes no sense to me.

I can accept the possibility of a force beyond anything we can conceive being the driving purpose of the universe, or perhaps better said, I can believe that there is an underlying force which is made manifest in the Universe. But I can't buy the God thing in anything like its traditional Judeo-Christian form.

But unless you think belief is only a matter of practice – going to church, kneeling and reciting some words – the Pascal's wager argument is moot. It's not about what I might or might not lose after I die – it's about what I think about the world we live in while I am alive.

As far as the gorilla/human thing goes, are cockapoos not produced from cocker spaniels and poodles because there are still cocker spaniels and poodles in the world?

reply to post by americandingbat


i understand the first part of your response, but this is what i'm getting from your cockerpoo thing ... so in essence your saying that some early form of human and gorilla cross-bred and that's how humans began which would in essence leave them both still alive now? i'm sorry but the cockerpoo's example doesn't make any sense.


[edit on 3-12-2008 by baseball101]

reply to post by baseball101


I'm saying that your argument doesn't make sense, because one breed (or species) can be descended from another even if the other is still alive.

What evidence actually suggests happened is that there was an ancestor species to gorillas, chimpanzees, monkeys, humans, etcetera, that is now extinct. So we're not descended from gorillas – we're descended from the same ancestors as gorillas.

I was just trying to point out the logical flaw in your argument with a concrete example.

I've never been comfortable with religions, maybe because I'm not much of a joiner. Religions seem to be so group oriented and group think reinforcing. Inevitably they are bogged down with propaganda and dogma that are unsupportable by scientific facts.

One has to keep in mind that our multiverse is, as far as we know, infinitely vast. In the one physical universe that we're in, our planet is extremely small and insignificant, which makes us, as part of that planet's animal life, very insignificant.

As physicists learn more about the nature of the multiverse, our philosophers will adapt and explore new implications of parallel worlds.

To my mind, there is a God, but my definition is that God is The Totality of Everything. Now, that being said, the conundrum is that if God is everything, then that would include things that aren't perfect. If all things and creatures are part of God, then why isn't everything in a perfect, steady state? What is God trying to do, heal itself or become perfect through all the actions in the multiverse?

Also, what is synchronicity all about? Is it parallel worlds resonating or super-strings resonating, causing synchronicity?

I've studied Tibetan Buddhism and relate to it better than I do to Christianity (which is a spin-off of Judaism). Buddhism is mostly a moral code with an end reward of bliss if one continually improves one's moral behavior and creates/projects increasingly more and more pure love-thy-neighbor vibrations. So, is the multiverse on a course towards blissful perfection if, over an unimaginable millenium of time all sentient beings sooner or later become blissfully perfect? If that is the goal, why isn't God (everything and everyone) perfect now? Why the struggle?

It is very interesting to me how Christianity spread and became Anglicized. A lot of Western people seem to believe that the characters in the Holy Bible were so much like themselves that they believe they descended from them. Many illustrations and nativity scenes depict Anglo-Saxon appearing characters. Many Christians in the Bible Belt of the U.S., if you asked them how Jewish they are, would say "not at all", however most of the Bible is Jewish and of course, Middle Eastern. I think Christianity is an extension of the Jewish faith, made extremely popular throughout the world.

I'm not knocking anyone's religion, but I think most religions are poorly understood and contain lots of propaganda and dogma, which is not all necessarily good in what it says and in practice.

I am an agnostic, because I cannot believe blindly in anything, especially when it involves group reinforcing structure, which I think is dangerous. Although, I am open-minded. My mind is most open to science, especially physics. If one reads the latest books by Michio Kaku, Lisa Randall, Brian Greene and others, one will find that we are on the verge of an entirely new way of thinking about our place in the cosmos and it is not only very strange to our previous way of thinking but it's very exciting in all its implications. Lately, I've been following these developments more than looking at religion, although I do continue to study Tibetan Buddhism in that I think they get a lot correct about the multiverse.

OP,

don't forget that there is more then one religion in the world (though that one religion would love to make you think it is...).

It's true, we ARE chemical reactions, but humans need to believe there is something more. Throughout human history this has been the case, cavemen, 14th century, now... To myself, it seems just too random an occurrence that life was created by chance events, Probable, but to me, unlikely.

I believe because in spite of the fact that it IS a silly notion, to believe that there are sentient being's that exist beyond our perception that ultimately control/created the universe, I still choose to believe it, if for no other reason that it seems right to me.

I used to be quite religious when I was younger but I'm slowly moving away from it now. Being from Ireland, I was raised as a catholic by my parents which meant going to mass every Sunday, going to confessions, and by my own decision, praying to god every night.

However, after becoming interested in 'conspiracies' or whatever you want to call them, I looked into the history of the Vatican and was shocked to the core. Needless to say, I've never looked at religion the same way again. In fact, the more I look at religion now, the more it seems like some sort of cult. It reminds me of that scene from the second planet of the apes movie where all the people are worshipping the nuclear warhead

Anyway, I'm still pressured by my parents to go to mass even though I've told them that I don't want to be accossiated in any way with catholicism. I can still remember my mother confronting me some months ago over the issue and telling me that 'it wasn't right' what I was doing. I've given up trying to convince them otherwise.

I know what you mean by "cult". All the emphasis on the cross, a torture device. All the emphasis on blood and drinking symbolic blood as a communion. Even all the red color at Christmastime is representative of blood. So, yeah, I think Christianity is a sort of blood cult and the domineering use of the torture device as a symbol is very unsettling.

In a weird, twisted way it seems as if Christianity ensured the survival of Judaism. If Jews were in danger of being marginalized, they overcame that with the introduction of Christianity, especially the King James court insisting that the Old Jewish Testament would be taught and drummed into the minds of youth. So, like, Christianity became the best P.R. in the world for ancient Jewish dogma with all its themes of guilt, retribution, persecution, violence, war, hatred, fear and so forth. The preservation of all of that was made manifest by the worldwide spread and acceptance of Christianity.

Why did Christianity become so popular? I think it was simply that the teachings of Jesus were of the highest moral value, but interestingly enough, Buddha had the same ideas at least 500 years before Jesus. But you don't see the Western world thinking much of Buddha. The King James court really put something powerful out there for consumers looking for meaning in their lives. But the court could have just as easily put out Buddhism as "the word" and most of it would have been in line with the Jesus teachings. Keeping more with ancestry, the King James court would have been more truly Anglo if it had propagated the ancient traditions of Druids, Celts, Norse, and Picts. But they didn't, as they had totally bought into Christianity from the Middle East with its fear and guilt baggage which was used to no end by the power elite in London.

So much of it was politics and power and still is today.

reply to post by switching yard


You are very correct in your assessment of churches being prone toward politics and other personal agendas. I don't think, however, that one should stop seeking the Truth just because people have gone and used it (or a form of it) for their own agendas.

I let the disappointments that I felt in the church turn me off to seeking for quite some time.. I don't necessarily regret this either because when you are raised in it, your view of the world belongs to someone else. I don't want to settle for what someone else says the Truth is whether they be a pastor, a scholar, a scientist, etc.

There is something there though, obviously pulling people to search. Just look around on this board... people are searching for *something* though they may not understand what it is they are seeking. The fact is, much like a gravitational pull, there is something pulling people to search and just like the earth is affected and pulled along by the gravitational forces of surrounding bodies, there IS something pulling people on a deeper level. That pull that we feel is coming from somewhere/someone.

You feel that pull too or you wouldn't have felt the need to post in this thread. So, you know what it isn't.. that being religion w/ its dogmatic views. Good, so now that you know what it is not, and does that mean the search over? Not at all... too many ppl settle for knowing what *it* is NOT that they quit trying to find out what *it* is.

Be honest? you need to look into textual criticism related to "holy" books.The bible is alone above the rest. The New Testament was written by eyewitnesses. It is historical. Have you noticed the names of you local hospitals? Try reading Lee Stroble "The Case for Christ", or anything by Paul Copan. Search christian apologetics on google? I would ask: of all that is possible for a person to "know", or "experience", in a given life; what % of all that is possible to know or experience has become yours so far?? Less than one %. Maybe Jesus exists in that other 99% and you as a common sinner among billions, simply have yet to know or experience His love? I know the sun shines when I don"t see it, I know theres love when I don't feel it.

reply to post by indifferent


Here's 10 questions every intelligient christian should ask themselves

Originally posted by GirlNextDoor

Originally posted by indifferent
Questions I would like to pose to rational people who claim to be religious:

I don't consider myself religious. I am a Christian with a whole lot of questions and a lot of dissatisfaction with the church (at least in the church in the US).

QUESTION: how did you become Christian? Were you assimilated? That means were you born into it and brought up with that particular belief?

If you had been born into a Buddhist family - would you be Buddhist by assimilation?

I was born into a Christian culture. Its like an automatic belief.

By Choice - - I complete stepped away from organized religion. Then looked at each story analytically - - and realized (in my opinion) Christianity makes zero sense as it is presented. That is not saying history and events in some context or form did not happen.

reply to post by indifferent
I was raised as an atheist, but in my opinions now to believe Evolution enterily is arrogant, i believe there is a superforce/entity responsible for our evolution but i do not believe in man made religion. Religion or not re ten commandments everyone should follow as a natural instinct respect each other, do not murder, sleep with your neighbours wife, steal etc, social decay is rampant religious or not acts are performed at times in the name of religion, or perfect excuse satan made me do it lol. Wide and vast topic, social, political and other forces are at play, one thing is for sure there is a cycle in this world.

reply to post by indifferent


That is why it is called faith.

Not a one liner

Originally posted by GirlNextDoor

Originally posted by indifferent
Questions I would like to pose to rational people who claim to be religious:

I don't consider myself religious. I am a Christian with a whole lot of questions and a lot of dissatisfaction with the church (at least in the church in the US).

I do think I'm rational and open-minded, and I was inclined to answer your questions. But as I read through your post, I couldn't help but think they're pretty loaded and emotionally charged. I don't think you want to hear answers. I think you're just looking for a fight.

So...I think I'll suffice it to say I am a believer in pursuit of the truth. Truth is found in science, yes. It is also found in experience (what you call anecdotes or feelings). In that respect, it would be difficult for someone who is not open-minded to consider what I have found to be truth through my experiences. My guess is you would just shoot it down, and then the whole conversation is not a conversation but a fight with pre-drawn conclusions. Right?

I am an Atheist, and somewhat of an Anti-theist, though I must take sides with 'GirlNextDoor'. Your post seems as if you're instigating.

Someone told me if they didn't have their faith they would've killed themselves, and in that respect I am glad for the beliefs they hold.

Religion isn't historically or scientifically correct in many senses, but you'll have to get along with them eventually, that's the main idea (in my opinion anyways).

Do unto others as you would like done unto yourself. Everyone could agree.

Organized religion is quite silly, especially when bombs explode and people are burned in the name of religion, but that is besides the point. We need to learn how to understand that everyone is always going to disagree, and we can't all think our beliefs are correct 100% of the time and apply to everyone.

Of course you could use that last paragraph against me. Call me a hypocrite or whatever you want. I truly believe that if we learn to disagree maturely and understand aspects of each other's beliefs, then all of this violence (based on religion at least) would end, eventually.

This is a great questions.

About me:
-I am a student in a doctoral program in a practical science ... will leave it at that.
-I am the most skeptical person I have met ( i.e., have not met someone more skeptical than myself).
-Given the incredible complexity shown at any given phenomenon in areas scientifically studied, I believe that there can not be a randomness driving the existence we have.
-For example, studing the role of one single ion (a element, atom, or molecule bearing a charge) consumes the entire working lives of our most great minds.
-This leads me to consider the great amount of things not even recognized, that may exist.
-Given my familiarity and beliefs with Christianity, the complexity the seemingly-neverending complexity in any single science/natural topic overwhelming even the greatest mind ... I am lead through science to believe in God.

Hope this helps!

Funny I see this post today. I had a couple of women knock on my door today. I opened the door...

"Hi, we'd like to speak to you about the bible today."

I just rolled my eyes and said... "Oh, Jesus!" and slammed the door in their face. It was funny.

What drives a stranger to go knocking on other strangers doors to want to talk about the bible. That to me says that person a nut job. That makes about as much sense as me going around wanting to talk to people about Dr. Suess.

I almost get angry when people try to talk to me about religion. Why? Because like the first post here talks about...where is the logic people?

There's more proof of UFO's then there are of God or Jesus Crist.

reply to post by indifferent

I'm sorry you feel that way, but let me share with you a story that changed the lives of several people.
My father is a no nonsense type of guy who is a good and decent person. He never went to Church or spoke about his beliefs. Well, to keep this short... he needed what they called the "Ross Procedure" to repair a damaged Aorta valve and a dime size hole between chambers 'in' the heart. They took pics of this hole with a Cath.
He flew to Austin, TX to have Dr. Ross himself do the surgery (I told you he didn't mess around) and had his 5 kids meet him there. We stayed about 1/2 mile from the hospital where families stayed a discounted rates. The day before his surgery I was on my way to see Dad when I passed a little old black lady walking towards the hospital. I don't know why, but I turned around and asked her if she needed a ride. Turns out she had a family member waiting for surgery too. As we chat, she told me she was a "Pray Warier". I am a Christian, but I didn't know what that was but I was sure glad she offered to go pray for my Dad. His odds were not good and he could use any help at that point.
The next morning we all gathered with Dad, said a Prayer with him, and watched as he went in for what should have been a 3 1/2 to 5 hour surgery. As we sat there in fear for our Dad, the doctor came out after less than 2 hours. All of ours hearts sank as we expected the worse. The doctor said he didn't have any explaination, but the hole in his heart wasn't there anymore. THAT'S RIGHT - GONE. They were going to stop his heart, pack ice under it, oped it up like a clam, then fix the hole, move the bottom valve to the top, replace the bottom with a cadaver valve. It turned out to be alot simpler. Thanks to God.
A couple days later, Dad was released to the hotel and was needing some rest, so we all went to the Alamo. While we were gone we had no idea Dad was in so much pain and discomfort. That's the way he is - remember? When we returned he called us in and told us this story...
He had alot of pressure in his chest and the pain was almost unbearable. He said he heard a voice that said "I am going to fix this problem, and I'm going to start right here". He said it felt like a hand reached in and re-positioned his heart and the pain went away Immediately. It not only shocked him, but it scared him and he jumped up and flipped the light on. He was the only one in the room. MY DAD now goes to Church and has a different perspective through experience.
I truely hope you experience your own miracle and realize your need to find out more about your creator. Merry Christmas and God Bless.

Rick Goodrich
US Navy Vet
Concord, NC

Religion is based on a simple aspect of human phycology. I have spoken with a handfull of people I would think of as fanatics, or close enough. What it seems to me is that they have two posibilities regarding why they treat the bibal as they do.

1: They need it. It is nessisary to their veiw on the world to have a "God" that governs over evrything. This allows a rationalisation on most aspects of what they can't controll, i.e. "I have cancer, must be a test of faith".
2: It's tradition. Everone they know belives in this system. There family is united through a common faith. They never put mutch thought into it, and they have no need. To them, faith in God such as they have is the most rational thing to do. It's considered a bad thing to them to sray from these belifs.

A preivious poster brought up the ten questons that christians should ask them selves. This vidoe is verry true. If asked, I doubt any of these people I know could have a thougho, rational answer. Nothing is rational in religion. It preches a complete refusal to change to new developments in the world around them. That is why the metric system is not dominent in the United States of America. That is why Califonia recently passed proposition 8. The rulling majority of people are the religious types that refuse to allow change that most other contries are willing to make. Thus, I end this rant with the hopes this will have cleared up the question, why anone takes religion serously.