Are Atheists Morally Superior To Theists?

Originally posted by stereovoyaged

Originally posted by Lightmare
Also, I have never met a Christian that would deny themself or anyone else a blood transfusion or other important medical attention if it was needed. Again, there are small fringe groups within the faith who might do that. But the majority of Christians do not subscribe to that school of thought.

The Jehovah's Witnesses will excommunicate you from their church if you have a blood transfusion, thats a fact. They report 7.1 million members, I wouldn't call that a fringe group.

Also Christian Scientists don't believe in doctors/hospitals. Membership figures are confidential so there are a wide variety of speculation/estimates on their numbers.

I think the Amish/Quakers also have similar views and are difficult to get a count.


[edit on 11-5-2009 by The All Seeing I]

reply to post by The All Seeing I



The only reason I mentioned the JW is because one of my friend's grandparents were kicked out of the church because his grandfather ok'd the transfusion, he said "just save my wife, I dont care".

Originally posted by Xtrozero

Originally posted by The All Seeing I
to believe that women are a “weaker vessel” and are incapable of leading/guiding/instructing a male

India very religious with female leaders, Russia/china not religious and none, Pakistan, Philippines and many other countries are religious and have female leaders...

Are you confusing culture and religion?

I'm not that familiar with the dynamics involved in asian society with regard to gender equality... but never the less, i think it's safe to say that universally religion has a huge influence on culture, especially in countries where there is no separation of church and state.

In western and middle-eastern cultures we have scripture to draw from in pin pointing the source of gender inequality:

1 Corinthians 11:3

3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman [is] the man; and the head of Christ [is] God.
(Head of every woman is the man)

1 Corinthians 11:7 - 9

7 For a man indeed ought not to cover [his] head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man.
8 For the man is not of the woman; but the woman of the man.
9 Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man.

1 Corinthians 14:34 - 35

34. Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but [they are commanded] to be under obedience, as also saith the law.
35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.
(Woman to be silent in church. A woman is not to speak in church)

Ephesians 5:22 - 25

22 Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord.
23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.
24 Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so [let] the wives [be] to their own husbands in every thing.
25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
(Wives must submit themselves to their husband, afterall he is the head of the wife)

Colossians 3:18

18. Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as it is fit in the Lord.
(Wives submit to their husband -- the Lord expects it)

1 Timothy 2:9 - 15

9. In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array;
10 But (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works.
11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.
15 Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.
(Women not to wear braided hair, gold, pearls, or costly array.
Women must learn in silence. Women are not to teach and not have
authority over men. Women must be silent. Adam was created first,
then Eve. A woman was deceived, but Adam was not deceived)

Romans 7:2

2 For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to [her] husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of [her] husband.
(woman bound to her husband for life)

Titus 2:3 - 5

3 The aged women likewise, that [they be] in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things;
4 That they may teach the young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children,
5 [To be] discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed.
(Women to obey their own husbands)

1 Peter 3:1 -3

1. Likewise, ye wives, [be] in subjection to your own husbands; that, if any obey not the word, they also may without the word be won by the conversation of the wives;
2 While they behold your chaste conversation [coupled] with fear.
3 Whose adorning let it not be that outward [adorning] of plaiting the hair, and of wearing of gold, or of putting on of apparel;

1 Peter 3:5 -7

5 For after this manner in the old time the holy women also, who trusted in God, adorned themselves, being in subjection unto their own husbands:
6 Even as Sara obeyed Abraham, calling him lord: whose daughters ye are, as long as ye do well, and are not afraid with any amazement.
7 Likewise, ye husbands, dwell with [them] according to knowledge, giving honour unto the wife, as unto the weaker vessel, and as being heirs together of the grace of life; that your prayers be not hindered.

Genesis 3:16

16. Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire [shall be] to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.
(Women will be ruled by men)

Leviticus 12:2

2 Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, If a woman have conceived seed, and born a man child: then she shall be unclean seven days; according to the days of the separation for her infirmity shall she be unclean.

Leviticus 12:5

5 But if she bear a maid child, then she shall be unclean two weeks, as in her separation: and she shall continue in the blood of her purifying threescore and six days.
(Woman unclean for 7 days if she gives birth to a man child.
She is unclean for 14 days to 66 days if she gives birth to woman child)

Esther 1:22

22 For he sent letters into all the king's provinces, into every province according to the writing thereof, and to every people after their language, that every man should bear rule in his own house, and that [it] should be published according to the language of every people.
Job 25:4

4 How then can man be justified with God? or , how can he be clean [that is] born of a woman?
(Any man born of a woman is unclean)

Ecclesiastes 7:26

26 And I find more bitter than death the woman, whose heart [is] snares and nets, [and] her hands [as] bands: whoso pleaseth God shall escape from her; but the sinner shall be taken by her.
( Women can be source of evil for men. Men source of evil for
women? -- doesn't say)

Deuteronomy 22:5

5. The woman shall not wear that which pertaineth unto a man, neither shall a man put on a woman's garment: for all that do so [are] abomination unto the LORD thy God.
( Women not to wear pants, nor men to wear dresses)

1 Corinthians 11:14

14 Doth not even nature itself teach you, that, if a man have long hair, it is a shame unto him?
(Men not to wear long hair)

(note: a woman's lower status to the man's is even related to godliness.)

...now for the Koran's turn at bat... in beating down women:

Sura 4: 35. Men are guardians over women because ALLAH has made some of them excel others, and because men spend on them of their wealth. So virtuous women are obedient, and guard the secrets of their husbands with ALLAH's protection. And as for those on whose part you fear disobedience, admonish them and keep away from them in their beds and chastise them. Then if they obey you, seek not a way against them. Surely, ALLAH is High and Great.

4: 4. And if you fear that you will not be just in dealing with the orphans, then marry of other women as may be agreeable to you, two, or three, or four; and if you fear you will not be able to do justice, then marry only one or marry what your right hand possess. Thus it is more likely that you will not do injustice.

Sura 2:222. And marry not idolatrous women until they believe; even a believing bond women is better than an idolatress, although she may please you. And give not believing women in marriage to idolaters until they believe; even a believing slave is better than an idolater, although he may please you. These call to Fire, but ALLAH calls to Heaven and to forgiveness by HIS will. And HE makes HIS Signs clear to the people that they may remember.

2:223. And they ask thee concerning menstruation. Say, `It is a harmful thing, so keep away from women during menstruation, and go not in unto them until they are clean. But when they have cleansed themselves, go in unto them as ALLAH has commanded you. ALLAH loves those who keep themselves clean.'

2:229. And the divorced women shall wait concerning themselves for three courses; and it is not lawful for them that they conceal what ALLAH has created in their wombs, if they believe in ALLAH and the Last Day; and their husbands have the greater right to take them back during that period, provided they desire reconciliation. And they (the women) have rights similar to those (of men) over them in equity; but men have a degree of advantage above them. And ALLAH is Mighty and Wise.

4: 12. ALLAH commands you concerning your children; a male shall have as much as the share of two females; but if their be females only, numbering more than two, then they shall have two-thirds of what the deceased leave; and if there be one, she shall have the half. And his parents each of them a sixth of the inheritance, if he have a child, but if he have no child and his parents be his heirs, then his mother shall have a third; and if he have brothers and sisters, then his mother shall have a sixth, after the payment of any bequests he may have bequeathed or of debts. Your fathers and your children; you know not which of them is more beneficent to you. This fixing of portions is from ALLAH. Surely, ALLAH is All-Knowing, Wise.

4:177. They ask thee for a decision. Say, `ALLAH gives HIS decision concerning `Kalálah. If a man dies leaving no child and he has a sister, then she shall have half of what he leaves; and he shall inherit her if she has no child. But if there be two sisters, then they shall have two-thirds of what he leaves. And if the heirs be brethren - both men and women - then the male shall have as much as the portion of two females. ALLAH explains this to you lest you go astray and ALLAH knows all things well.'

As we can see by Saudi Court Approves Pedophilia the union of church and state can arrest a cultures ability to evolve.

[edit on 11-5-2009 by The All Seeing I]

reply to post by Xtrozero


"5. The woman shall not wear that which pertaineth unto a man, neither shall a man put on a woman's garment: for all that do so [are] abomination unto the LORD thy God.
( Women not to wear pants, nor men to wear dresses) "

Okay, it's a general rule that laws are made to deal with problems. So, I'm thinking they had a problem with cross-dressing back then?

Quite simply, atheists have a better sense of morality than theists. Atheists don't plant bombs in marketplaces or fly airplanes into buildings in the name of atheism.

There is also the suggestion that fundamentalists are a tiny fraction of theists but extremists wouldn't be extremists without the support of the majority. One needs only look at the way that homosexuals are treated in America for an example of this. For instance Gary Potter's comment here.

Originally posted by Xtrozero

Originally posted by The All Seeing I
or to encourage a lack of concern/responsibility for the planet due to a belief of a fast-approaching armageddon where/when God will come to clean house.

Naw this is your idea alone...enjoy it.

I think TheMythLives touched on a key insight. Being an atheist/agnostic you are more likely to take this life more seriously and therefore be more thoughtful/responsible for your actions. If you believe that god will come to clean up your mess, then why lift a finger?

Imagine that you fully believe that the inevitable end of the world is soon approaching. Do you really think you'll care about the environment or efforts to prevent a world war? The only motivation i can see on the rise, is for believers to convert/save as many atheists/agnostics as possible before it's too late.

[edit on 12-5-2009 by The All Seeing I]

When looking for secular parallels to religious activist orgs... The Reason Project... comes to mind. Unfortunately in the face of such overwhelming support for bible-group-think such moral atheist activist efforts are not enough to turn our society around... but at least it's a step in the right direction, that we direly need more people to support.

A 501(c)(3) nonprofit foundation devoted to spreading scientific knowledge and secular values in society. The foundation draws on the talents of prominent and creative thinkers in a wide range of disciplines to encourage critical thinking and erode the influence of dogmatism, superstition, and bigotry in our world.

Part of the reason this is an up hill battle is that all religious orgs actively target young minds. Before they can develop their first independent opinion/thought about anything they have been indoctrinated with a mental filter that great limits one's point of view.

[edit on 12-5-2009 by The All Seeing I]

reply to post by The All Seeing I


"Part of the reason this is an up hill battle is that all religious orgs actively target young minds. Before they can develop their first independent opinion/thought about anything they have been indoctrinated with a mental filter that great limits one's point of view."

The targeting is moving out of the churches and into secular schools. Where it is NOT wanted or allowed by law. They want us back in the 17th Century.

reply to post by The All Seeing I


I'll refrain from quoting your 2 feet of posts, and keep this simple. You are comparing the culture of 1000s of years ago with today’s views as your argument, and then suggesting atheist today are morally superior than theists a long time ago.

My point is in most mainstream religions there is a moral foundation built within. I’m not saying it is perfect or not influenced by culture, but when you look at other non-religious based cultures for the same time period there is even more extremism. So your point is really moot here my friend.

A THE IST and THE IST

THE stands for GOD and A for anti, anti Gods so God does exist for being anti are they. Maybe a wrong label atheist.

Forgot to use names?

[edit on 12-5-2009 by etherical waterwave]

Originally posted by mithrawept
There is also the suggestion that fundamentalists are a tiny fraction of theists but extremists wouldn't be extremists without the support of the majority. One needs only look at the way that homosexuals are treated in America for an example of this. For instance Gary Potter's comment here.

So the Unabomber was religious...

The problem is not so much religion as it is just man. You want to blame religion, but man will use any motivator for their non religious agendas. In the Middle East it is all about power and politics with religion used wrongly as a motivator. So even when religion is used in this fashion people are still able to fall back to the moral foundation, but in a non religious society that gets off the moral track they really get off it. Take china after Communism took over there. At the cost of 100 million plus lives they industrialized their nation.

Russia outlawed religion and in a few years one man killed 40 million to keep fear as his motivator of control.

Pol Pat decided to kill all religious leaders and educators of the country and in less than 4 years had children who once sat in a classroom to learn were now in those same classrooms torturing people to death for no reason but to kill them with 2 million dead. You want to see pure evil? Go visit that school today and see what devices they used.

Even today we see no religion in the extreme situation in Darfur were millions are dying due to warlords who rape, pillage and kill in very barbaric ways in 2009. We see how America decided in a non- religious political way to “change” the political environment of Iraq to a democracy….

If I had a choice to live in a religious country or a non religious one I would every time pick the religious one for I know just how evil man can be with no restraints to his morals or lack of.



[edit on 12-5-2009 by Xtrozero]

An atheist is a person who is one step closer to the real source of what we call God. You have to deny God before you can rediscover him/it/she.

This ussualy happens when previously you had some religious God then you became atheist.

Originally posted by Xtrozero
If I had a choice to live in a religious country or a non religious one I would every time pick the religious one for I know just how evil man can be with no restraints to his morals or lack of.

Historically, the religious have been just as unrestrained or worse, they used religion and religious holy books to justify their barbarism.

On the other hand Europe, for example is becoming less and less religious, yet they aren't killing innocent people by millions.

In current order the most irreligious (indifferent to) nations are;

Estonia 84%
Sweden 83%
Denmark 80%
Hong Kong 78%
Norway 78%
Azerbijan 74%
Czech 74%
France 73%
Japan 73%
UK 71%
Finland 69%
Mongolia 69%
Australia 68%
Netherlands 66%
New Zealand 66%
Demographic Map
-Wiki

Specifically atheist numbers are even more interesting:
Zuckerman (2005)

Dunno about you but I'd rather live in Sweden, Norway, Netherlands etc. than America.

[edit on 12-5-2009 by Welfhard]

Originally posted by Welfhard

Dunno about you but I'd rather live in Sweden, Norway, Netherlands etc. than America.

Naw over taxed and no Cosco....

Originally posted by Xtrozero

Originally posted by Welfhard

Dunno about you but I'd rather live in Sweden, Norway, Netherlands etc. than America.

Naw over taxed and no Cosco....

It be worth it.

Originally posted by Welfhard
Estonia 84%
Sweden 83%
Denmark 80%
Hong Kong 78%
Norway 78%
Azerbijan 74%
Czech 74%
France 73%
Japan 73%
UK 71%
Finland 69%
Mongolia 69%
Australia 68%
Netherlands 66%
New Zealand 66%

Re-read my post...people are the problem, and they will use what ever motivator they can find. Nationlism has been the worst by far, and there is nothing to compare unless you can find something that has outright killed 250 million over the years and created a living hell for 100s of millons more.

Call it what you will...it is human nature to blame and not religion. These countries you listed are what they are by culture mostly.

reply to post by Xtrozero

Call it what you will...it is human nature to blame and not religion. These countries you listed are what they are by culture mostly.

OK so lets just ignore it. Let's allow "human nature" to have it's beloved front for evil agendum, religion. I think it's something that we both can and should do something about on principle - not so much religion but dogma. Any thing that evil people can use, and tool, we should do what we can to remove from them, and as they have less and less to fool people with, they more we can unmask them.

Originally posted by Welfhard
OK so lets just ignore it. Let's allow "human nature" to have it's beloved front for evil agendum, religion. I think it's something that we both can and should do something about on principle - not so much religion but dogma. Any thing that evil people can use, and tool, we should do what we can to remove from them, and as they have less and less to fool people with, they more we can unmask them.

You suggest I might be on your side......

reply to post by The All Seeing I


I have not read all the posts, but I object to being grouped with religious extremists.

I believe In Jesus Christ, and I believe that if humanity followed his teachings we would not be in this mess.

I therefore, obviously, believe in God, His Father, but I do not believe in the organized religions of the world as I think they are based on false premises arising from false writings.

I do not think that atheists are better, nor do I think that theists are better. We are all equal.