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Jobless Could Be Forced To Carry Out 'Community Punishments'

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posted on Dec, 2 2008 @ 08:32 PM
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reply to post by masonwatcher
 


As an example of the british mentality, my best mate was made redundant a month or so ago as the software company he worked at cut costs. He lives barely 20 miles from my place of work and I sent him job specs of roles he fitted perfectly.

He has declined to apply as it's "too far" to go, despite where he lives (Henly on Thames) not exactly being a place of great employment. It's people with this mentality that result in the "unemployed", even during the boom years when the country was awash with jobs.

Ironically, it's these same people who complain about the Poles coming over and stealing jobs!



posted on Dec, 2 2008 @ 09:00 PM
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Obama isn't proposing community service as punishment for not working, but because it would broaden young people's perspective and give them some experience of the "real world" before they embark on their higher education and/or careers. I think he also believes community work is good for one's soul.

Here in the U.S., one is not entitled to unemployment benefits if one has voluntarily quit their job or has been fired for "just cause." Even when unemployment benefits are extended they are for a limited amount of time--less than a year in most cases--and the recipient must provide proof that he or she is actively looking for work.

Contrary to what a lot of people are saying, disability benefits are very hard to get. One has to supply a great deal of verification of eligibility from doctors and other sources and these sources are regularly reviewed. I do know someone who is on it that isn't really disabled, just doesn't want to work, but IMO he is an exception, not the rule.

Medicaid benefits are only given to the disabled and children, at least in my state. Other adults are not eligible. Welfare has a maximum limit of five years, and is generally only given to single mothers. Some states provide "general relief," but it's usually only about $75 per month (not enough for anyone to live on).

This is the population everyone wants to put to work picking litter off the highways, etc.

It seems whether it is the UK or the US, people on any sort of public assistance are going to be reviled and subjected to punishments of various kinds. It is just assumed that such people are unworthy of any help. It strikes me that usually the people who call for their government to provide no relief at all for anyone are youmg, healthy, above average in intelligence and consider themselves invulnerable.

There is always going to be a segment of any population who are genuinely unable to provide for themselves adequately. In those cases it is cruel and usually futile to punish them.

A side note: As politically liberal as I am, I still enjoy the royal family enormously. I hope they reign for many more years.



posted on Dec, 2 2008 @ 09:07 PM
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Originally posted by stumason
reply to post by ashamedamerican
 


The only Royals receiving public money are the Queen and Prince Phillip. Everyone else has their own money and businesses or careers.

As a Yank, I don't expect you to have anything good to say about anything from outside the US mind you, least of all the British Monarchy, and I certainly didn't think you'd have anywhere near an accurate view of what it is the Royal's do.

EDIT: Anyway, this isn't the thread for discussing the Roayls. If you feel the need to bash them, start a thread of your own.

[edit on 2/12/08 by stumason]

I don't have anything good to say about any elitists, especially when most of them are the ones responsible for economies tanking, then they talk down to the dirty 'jobless' heathens, who are jobless because of the decisions made by those elitists to begin with.

And you're right about one thing, in the U.K. and in the U.S. most of the inbred elitist trash do have 'their own money' now that they have raped it from the pockets of the average joe over generations.


I'm not saying that some people don't leech off the system, and no it is not right for average people to have to pay even more to support them.
However I don't think that inbred pampered brats have much room to talk though when it comes to discussion about people bilking the system, those who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.

By the way I'm an American, not a 'Yank' you can keep your derogatory slang to yourself, unless us Americans are now allowed to refer to anyone from the U.K. as a wanker.



posted on Dec, 2 2008 @ 09:09 PM
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getting the unemployed to do community work is all well and good, but alot of these people are unskilled workers so the community work you get them to do should provide them with being able to gain skills so that they can become fully employed otherwise its just slave labour and kicking those who are easy targets for the sake of a few votes.

if you want people to pick up rubbish and clean paint off walls etc (menial work) get prisoners to do it (low risk ones) hardtimers get em digging ditches on a chain gang



posted on Dec, 2 2008 @ 09:48 PM
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Single parents and those on sickness benefits will also have part of their weekly payments stopped for not keeping to a promise that they will make themselves ready for work.

There isn't much point being ready for work, if there is no work though, surely?
Unemployment at the moment is bad everywhere.
What is the point of making people do this at this time when there is less jobs?
Why didn't they do this, 5-6 years ago?



posted on Dec, 2 2008 @ 10:05 PM
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Originally posted by ashamedamerican
By the way I'm an American, not a 'Yank' you can keep your derogatory slang to yourself, unless us Americans are now allowed to refer to anyone from the U.K. as a wanker.


That's not even the same thing, is it?

You view Yank as derogatory, but that is your own personal view. I know Americans who don't mind it, like I don't mind being called a Brit, Pom or Limey

If Yank offends you so then you have issues, but to think it is even anywhere near as offensive as calling someone a wanker is plain stupid and displaying gross ignorance around what the word means.



posted on Dec, 2 2008 @ 11:05 PM
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reply to post by stumason
 

I'm not trying to start a petty argument but it is derogatory slang.

I have Canadian friends who 'don't mind' being called a '"canuck" however I don't go around referring to all Canadians by this word, because most Canadians find it insulting and offensive.
My friends don't get the privilege of deciding what offends other Canadians.
What you call your friends, and how you refer to an entire populace, shouldn't always be one in the same.

I fully understand the difference between calling someone a limey and a wanker, I understand exactly what both words mean. My point though is that you shouldn't use derogatory slang when you speak of an entire country, regaurdless of what that word may be.
Inappropriate is inappropriate >.< period



posted on Dec, 2 2008 @ 11:39 PM
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reply to post by stumason
 


A psychological view:

I'm assuming that your friend held a skilled and well paid position within the company prior to redundancy...and perhaps had been with that particular company for a while?

What I'm driving at is, if as I assume the above to be somewhere close to his situation, then I would guess that they're suffering from the psychological effects of redundancy. Your friend isn't being lazy by refusing your offer of a job with your company with the reasoning of "Its too far to travel" I'd guess what he REALLY means is "Its not the same, and I miss my old familiar routine"

Suddenly being made unemployed doesn't just affect the wallet, but also the psyche. An ingrained routine has been forcibly broken. The reason to get up in the morning, the familiar faces/places on the commute, the interaction with a 'family' of work collegues, all of those aspects also go into the daily working life, and can be said to be equally true for those who are long term unemployed.

Whether on the dole or in the workplace, once a support network of others who share a similar situation and set of values/goals has been built up and been reinforced through habit over time, it becomes increasingly harder to break.

A person on long-term benefits will be 'conditioned' to a particular mind set, have a particular habit pattern,and will have a regular interaction pattern with those around them, and should be helped to adjust to a new pattern of behaviour to adapt to the world of work.

Community work which reinforces that 'work ethic' is a positive step forward, but must be met with the threat of sanction to prevent regression, whilst rewarded and encouraged through a sense of personal success, achievement and self-worth



posted on Dec, 3 2008 @ 12:31 AM
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reply to post by citizen smith
 


That's all fine and dandy, were it true. As it stands, the jobs I was forwarding him paid more than what he was on previously and had far better prospects, but so far he has declined the offers.

As to your psycological analysis, I too have been on the receiving end of redundancy, so I know what it is like. What I did, however, was immediately start looking for a new job and jumped ship before the redundancy notice period expired, not sit around waiting for the axe.

I have also been unemployed for several periods, but not once did I claim any benefit, despite finding myself in abject poverty for a time, but instead I went out EVERY day from 0900-1700 looking for work. It took me a couple of months on one occasion to find work, but I did it. Not only did I find work, but I also boosted my income by around 50% by getting a new job.

In 6 years I have gone from unemployed and living in a squat too now earning close to £40k, living in a nice 3 Bed house in a nice part of berkshire, with two lovely kids and a gorgeous partner. I did not ONCE claim a single penny from the Government during my unemployment and got to where I am through hard work, dedication and personal ambition to improve my lot in life.

Compare my story to this scrounging waste of flesh:



No one in our house works


With redundancies rising and job vacancies shrinking, unemployment is back in the headlines. But for millions it never went away. As part of a series on Britain's jobless, one family explains how and why lack of work has touched their lives.

Elizabeth Malcolm, 43, has never had a job. She lives in a two-bedroom council flat in Glasgow with her three children, one grandchild, two cats and a hamster.

Neither of her two working-age children have a job.

The family is what the statistics gatherers call a "workless household" - one of three million in the country. In reality it's not quite so easy to put every jobless person into a neat little box. This is their story.

Elizabeth, known as "Biff" to family and friends, wishes now that she had got into work or college back in 1980, when she left school at 15.


Some of the excuses these cretins come up with for not working are unbelievable! Have a read:



They send for you every month to ask you why you're not working and if you've been looking for work. I've told them my situation, that I've been having panic attacks when I go out


I suffer panic attacks and have for years. Doesn't stop me working though! I also have palpatations, sore knee joints from Rugby injuries and poor eyesight in one eye. The ironic thing is I have to pay for dentistry and prescriptions, but this creature gets it for free, yet I'm the one out working and she just sits on her arse. You'd think she'd be the healthier one?



All my pals are looking for work as well. But it's not that easy to get a job straightaway, you've got to write out your CV and everything and then hand it in to places.


How does she think everyone else got a job????? Some magical fairy came to us and left it under the Christmas tree?

It disgusts me. I actually hate these people and their ilk. A complete lazy, bone idle attitude where they seem to expect everything handed on a plate.

[edit on 3/12/08 by stumason]



posted on Dec, 3 2008 @ 01:19 AM
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Originally posted by SuperSecretSquirrel
I do not condone the government of any nation giving handouts. That should be up to the neighbors/churches/local governments to take care of their own.

If that's the case, then what right should a government have to tax the people?????

Some people are genuinely in need of social welfare.



posted on Dec, 3 2008 @ 01:34 AM
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reply to post by DimensionalDetective
 





Jobless Could Be Forced To Carry Out 'Community Punishments'


In America, that could be thought as the "slave trade". In Australia, it is called "working for the dole".



posted on Dec, 3 2008 @ 02:06 AM
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Originally posted by stumason
reply to post by roknhrdcor
 


That's bollocks and you know it. Every member of the Royal family not on the civil list has a job or career. The ones on the civil list spend their entire lives attending functions, openings, gala's, foreign countries and the like at the behest of the UK Government. They have no private life and live to serve as living ornaments.

[edit on 2/12/08 by stumason]


It's a hard life. But at least they're bloody rich to make up for it, the poor dears. These people are exactly like pop culture celebrities, except they are less talented.

Monarchists can all swing for all I care. Sicophants.



posted on Dec, 3 2008 @ 02:15 AM
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reply to post by stumason
 


The psychological mechanism of conditioning is far more powerful than you may realise. It informs many aspects of the social and personal self right the way down to our core values that shapes the way we exist in our day to day lives

I'll take the comment you made of your friend to illustrate..


the jobs I was forwarding him paid more than what he was on previously and had far better prospects, but so far he has declined the offers.


Your friend may well have a different set of conditioned core-values with regard to employment, and rather than an increase in pay or prospects, puts a far higher value on the social aspect that is all part and parcel of any job.

I can readily identify with your past situation of living in abject poverty in a squat following redundancy having been there myself, and took on a very similar routine to get out of that situation, again, driven by personal core-values

However, rather than refuse to take-up what was available in terms of welfare as you described in your example, which will have been a result of your own personal conditioned psyche, I used the system as it was intended - as a temporary safety net.

At the same time as being a claimant I put a portion of the spare time outside of looking for employment into unpaid voluntary work as an advisor for the CAB as I believe (as a result of my own conditioned values) that it was my duty to society to give my skills and labours in return for the financial support that I had taken.

As a direct result of my voluntary work, I made myself far more attractive to employers and recieved several job offers that I was able to choose from



Elizabeth Malcolm, 43, has never had a job [...] Neither of her two working-age children have a job.


Socially conditioned behaviour learnt by the two children as a product of their family environment..



Elizabeth, known as "Biff" to family and friends, wishes now that she had got into work or college back in 1980, when she left school at 15.


...and as a result of social conditioning at some early point of the mothers life, has adopted the core-value of 'learned helplessness' and dependance on others or the state to the point that even though she may identify where she had gone wrong in her earlier years, has, through her conditioning accepted her situation as being a helpless one so perpetuating her self-beliefs and then educating her offspring with the same behaviour patterns



Some of the excuses these cretins come up with for not working are unbelievable! Have a read:



They send for you every month to ask you why you're not working and if you've been looking for work. I've told them my situation, that I've been having panic attacks when I go out


I suffer panic attacks and have for years. Doesn't stop me working though! I also have palpatations, sore knee joints from Rugby injuries and poor eyesight in one eye. The ironic thing is I have to pay for dentistry and prescriptions, but this creature gets it for free, yet I'm the one out working and she just sits on her arse. You'd think she'd be the healthier one?



All my pals are looking for work as well. But it's not that easy to get a job straightaway, you've got to write out your CV and everything and then hand it in to places.


How does she think everyone else got a job????? Some magical fairy came to us and left it under the Christmas tree?

It disgusts me. I actually hate these people and their ilk. A complete lazy, bone idle attitude where they seem to expect everything handed on a plate.


I agree with you and I find it disturbing, i'll even admit the same feelings of contempt, toward those people who live their lives this way, but there has to be an underlying reason as to WHY these people believe as they believe, that the state has an obligatory right to support them.

What aspect of our culture has gone wrong that reinforces the selfish belief of entitlement and to cheat society?

It's exactly the same attitude that has been described in another currently running thread on cheating students...selfishness, entitlement, and profit of anothers efforts



[edit on 3-12-2008 by citizen smith]



posted on Dec, 3 2008 @ 02:35 AM
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I think we should consider it as "employment by the state". There are no hand-outs, you just get paid a pittance to work for the government until you get a proper freaking job.

Make 'em work 9-5 for that 84 quid a fortnight...they'll soon find a proper job.



posted on Dec, 3 2008 @ 03:46 AM
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Originally posted by stumason

If you can work and there is a job for you, yet you turn it down, the your benefits should be cut or you should be forced into community work like clearing rubbish, fixing roads or cleaning up graffitti.



I brought this up with our County Councilor and a lower form of life from the Borough Council a few years ago at a meeting. Their answer? The Borough and County councils have contracts with the private sector for this work.
Ok, so why is the work not being done?
Their answer? Because they (the councils) don't have the funds to do it all.


I mean, how simple is it? Get lazy buggers on long term unemployment benefits to do it or, as I suggested to the two officials, get work gangs from the prisons off their arses and doing the work, contributing something to society. Can't do that either apparently.... something to do with human rights BS!




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