the problem with the "UFO cover up"

One of the accusations made by many UFO proponents is that their is a government coverup of the extra terrestrial nature of the UFO phenomeon, but strangely the list of agencies llegedly in the know is expansive:
FBI, CIA, NSA,NSC, FEMA, USAF, USN, USA, NASA, NOAA,FAA, LANL just to name a few. Then with each agency their is a huge list of people that allegedly knows.

My problem with this is as such: Anyone who's held a security clearence for the government, as I did with the DoD while I served, knows that the policy for classified information is that as few people know as possible, to this end only those with a clearence and a need-to-know are allowed access. Yet with the alleged UFO cover up it seems as if everyone is accused of knowing, and this does not make sense, especially with regards to intelligence agencies who were faulted after 9-11 for with holding information from one another, each one was competing to have the most intel and not sharing..yet were expected to believe that everyone said OK and everyone knows about UFOs?


Then you have the low quality witnesses. People like Lazar and Phillip Corso who were both debunked by Stanton Friedman none the less. Then you have these crazier witnesses like the guy who claims he got into a fight and shot 2 greys and that one of them shot his fingers off or some such, and the backgrounds dont check out.
Then you have legitiamte witnesses, there are a few who worked for area 51 but they reported not seeing any aliens or such, just advanced air craft, but for some reason for some advanced aircraft = ET. why? I dont know. your guess is as good as mine.

Then you have the witnesses who's significance is greatly exaggerated, such a a month ago when a former Canadian Defense Minister came forward and said he believed UFOs were ET.. on ATS many toted it as some sort of disclosure, it was made big news and people turned it into like a sort of "OMG" moment, but right in the article they quoted the Defense Minister specified right in there that he had NO DIRECT KNOWLEDGE of UFOs, that he had reached his belief after reading Corso's Roswell book... Ok...so he read UFO book and believes in UFOs now? this is big news....why?

Then youve got the exaggerated disclosures, such as the UK mod "disclosure" it wasnt really a disclosure at all, it was a report on sightings.. the biggest one being by the American pilot, and in that case the most anyone saw was a Radar blip, no one actually saw the alleged object itself, not even him.
So these reasons sort of cast a doubt on the whole UFO cover up idea.

If you put enough bunk information out there, people won't know what to believe. The CIA for one, uses about 30-40% of its budget on disinformation.(even that figure may be disinfo)

Regarding the UFO cover up, you should be aware of the Robertson Panel:

The Robertson Panel was a committee commissioned by the Central Intelligence Agency in 1952 in response to widespread Unidentified Flying Object reports, especially in the Washington DC area. The panel was briefed on U.S. military activities and intelligence; hence the report was originally classified Secret.
.....

The Robertson Panel concluded that a public relations campaign should be undertaken in order to "debunk" UFOs, and reduce public interest in the subject, and that civilian UFO groups should be monitored. There is evidence this was carried out more than two decades after the Panel's conclusion; see "publicity and responses" below.
....

Furthermore, the Panel suggested the Air Force should begin a "debunking" effort to reduce "public gullibility" and demystify UFO reports, partly via a public relations campaign, using psychiatrists, astronomers and assorted celebrities to significantly reduce public interest in UFOs. It was also recommended that the mass media be used for the debunking, including influential media giants like the Walt Disney Corporation. The primary reasoning for this recommendation lay in the belief that the Soviets might try to "mask" an actual invasion of the USA by causing a wave of false "UFO" reports to swamp the Pentagon and other military agencies, thus temporarily blinding the US government to the impending Communist invasion.

Their formal recommendation stated "That the national security agencies take immediate steps to strip the Unidentified Flying Objects of the special status they have been given and the aura of mystery they have unfortunately acquired."

Also recommended was government monitoring of civilian groups studying or researching UFOs "because of their potentially great influence on mass thinking... the apparent irresponsibility and possible use of such groups for subversive purposes should be kept in mind." Two UFO groups in particular were singled out: APRO and Civilian Saucer Investigations (CSI).

The recommendations of the Robertson Panel were implemented by a series of special military regulations. Joint-Army-Navy-Air Force Publication 147 (JANAP 146) of December 1953 made reprinting of any UFO sighting to the public a crime under the Espionage Act, with fines of up to ten thousand dollars and imprisonment ranging from one to ten years. This act was considered binding on all who knew of the act's existence, including commercial airline pilots.

en.wikipedia.org...

This Rand report from 1968, "UFOs: What to do?", is also interesting reading:
stinet.dtic.mil...

I agree with the op. But..

How about the cases were you have people suffering from exposure such as radiation sickness when there is no way in hell somebody outside the DoD or some nuclear labs can get drenched in such heavy amounts and why would somebody expose themselves to such high levels if it was just for show?

It is certainly a sad loss indeed with the passing of Betty Cash.

LINKY HERE


People can say the saw this or that and can make all kinds of claims and you can have pictures and videos showing all kinds of stuff YouTube is full of them most in my opinion are bunk but when you get hard evidence of events such as this we should really take the subject matter more seriously

IMHO



[edit on 2-12-2008 by SLAYER69]

so when gordon cooper filmed a ufo land at edwards air force base and then take off again. was that not alien?

the craft that hovered over arizona over a mile wide, was that not ET.

im agree that there are disinfo agents closer than we may like, and i agree that back engineering is taking place too.

but i will not believe that this entire world wide phenomena is a government agenda.

Originally posted by SLAYER69
I agree with the op. But..

How about the cases were you have people suffering from exposure such as radiation sickness when there is no way in hell somebody outside the DoD or some nuclear labs can get drenched in such heavy amounts and why would somebody expose themselves to such high levels if it was just for show?

It is certainly a sad loss indeed with the passing of Betty Cash.

LINKY HERE


People can say the saw this or that and can make all kinds of claims and you can have pictures and videos showing all kinds of stuff YouTube is full of them most in my opinion are bunk but when you get hard evidence of events such as this we should really take the subject matter more seriously

IMHO



[edit on 2-12-2008 by SLAYER69]

Nuclear labs and such arent the only way to get radiation sickness. Without having a complete catalog of the environments the person has been in there is no way to tell. Some common objects have radiation in them, furthermore if the person lived close to a area where nukes were tested or an area which the fallout landed in, they might be vulnerable to the effects of the radiation.


Furthermore in your link, this person may be an expert on that one sighting (I assume hes claiming such, since his email starts wih RB47expert) but as far as radiation, youd need to get a expert in radiation to testify to such , a qualified radiologist, a deramtologist who knows raditiation as well as a nuclear physicist would be the best people to digest such a claim.

[edit on 2-12-2008 by NavalFC]

Originally posted by LordThumbs
so when gordon cooper filmed a ufo land at edwards air force base and then take off again. was that not alien?

the craft that hovered over arizona over a mile wide, was that not ET.

im agree that there are disinfo agents closer than we may like, and i agree that back engineering is taking place too.

but i will not believe that this entire world wide phenomena is a government agenda.

Has this alleged video been verified? No.

Furthermore, you have a video of an unknown aircraft landing.

Ok. What proves that said aircraft is alien? Unless you have a video of the aliens themselves coming out of the craft you cant say thats what it is.

If I had a video of the Stealth before it was known I could easily have passed it off as a video of an alien ship, and many might hve bought it because the Stealth looks unlike any of our aircraft, its shape is very unique.

Point being that advanced aircraft in and of itself does not = alien ship.

Originally posted by NavalFC

Some common objects have radiation in them, furthermore if the person lived close to a area where nukes were tested or an area which the fallout landed in, they might be vulnerable to the effects of the radiation.

But in her case and a few others there was collaborating evidence that they were in the presents of a vehicle either extra terrestrial or Defense dept either way there is more to those types of stories that no cover up will hide, at least those have real physical evidence.

Also "Some common objects" Microwave ovens and smoke detectors don’t do the damage that she and others were exposed to.

Test range? Well again who in their right mind would travel through or live close enough to exposure.

Originally posted by ziggystar60
Regarding the UFO cover up, you should be aware of the Robertson Panel:

The Robertson Panel was a committee commissioned by the Central Intelligence Agency in 1952 in response to widespread Unidentified Flying Object reports, especially in the Washington DC area. The panel was briefed on U.S. military activities and intelligence; hence the report was originally classified Secret.
.....

The Robertson Panel concluded that a public relations campaign should be undertaken in order to "debunk" UFOs, and reduce public interest in the subject, and that civilian UFO groups should be monitored. There is evidence this was carried out more than two decades after the Panel's conclusion; see "publicity and responses" below.
....

Furthermore, the Panel suggested the Air Force should begin a "debunking" effort to reduce "public gullibility" and demystify UFO reports, partly via a public relations campaign, using psychiatrists, astronomers and assorted celebrities to significantly reduce public interest in UFOs. It was also recommended that the mass media be used for the debunking, including influential media giants like the Walt Disney Corporation. The primary reasoning for this recommendation lay in the belief that the Soviets might try to "mask" an actual invasion of the USA by causing a wave of false "UFO" reports to swamp the Pentagon and other military agencies, thus temporarily blinding the US government to the impending Communist invasion.

Their formal recommendation stated "That the national security agencies take immediate steps to strip the Unidentified Flying Objects of the special status they have been given and the aura of mystery they have unfortunately acquired."

Also recommended was government monitoring of civilian groups studying or researching UFOs "because of their potentially great influence on mass thinking... the apparent irresponsibility and possible use of such groups for subversive purposes should be kept in mind." Two UFO groups in particular were singled out: APRO and Civilian Saucer Investigations (CSI).

The recommendations of the Robertson Panel were implemented by a series of special military regulations. Joint-Army-Navy-Air Force Publication 147 (JANAP 146) of December 1953 made reprinting of any UFO sighting to the public a crime under the Espionage Act, with fines of up to ten thousand dollars and imprisonment ranging from one to ten years. This act was considered binding on all who knew of the act's existence, including commercial airline pilots.

en.wikipedia.org...

This Rand report from 1968, "UFOs: What to do?", is also interesting reading:
stinet.dtic.mil...

I am aware however I dont find it unusual that the CIA would want to invetigate something such as this to determine if it was a threat.
CIA investiating UFOs and then determining they werent a threat
does not equal: CIA knows aliens are here and is covering it up.

Originally posted by SLAYER69

Originally posted by NavalFC

Some common objects have radiation in them, furthermore if the person lived close to a area where nukes were tested or an area which the fallout landed in, they might be vulnerable to the effects of the radiation.

But in her case and a few others there was collaborating evidence that they were in the presents of a vehicle either extra terrestrial or Defense dept either way there is more to those types of stories that no cover up will hide, at least those have real physical evidence.

Also "Some common objects" Microwave ovens and smoke detectors don’t do the damage that she and others were exposed to.

Test range? Well again who in their right mind would travel through or live close enough to exposure.

You dont have to live close to the nuclear test range to be expose to radioactive fallout, which fell over several places in the United States.

Furthermore, like I said previously, if this is so hardcore they should get the aforemetioned specialists involved.

reply to post by NavalFC


Addressing your points:

Security – yes, some people make a lot of accusations without any specific evidence to back up their claims. That said, there are documents which prove the USG has had an interest in UFOs post 1969, when it claimed to stop investigating.

Secondly, no one, afaik, is saying everyone in all those agencies knows everything. Quite the opposite in fact, 99.8% in those agencies probably know nothing. Google Richard Dolan/Edgar Mitchell/Admiral Tom Wilson for some info on where the secrets could be. In short, it seems the real goodies are in the private sector.

Yes Freidman doesn’t like Lazar or Corso but others do. Paul Hellyer liked Corso because he provided dates, places and names that could be checked. Hellyer then contacted a retired US general friend who confirmed Corso’s book as correct. Sure, Hellyer has no first hand knowledge but then, he has never claimed to.

The UK MoD disclosure was exactly like you say – a mass release of old sightings reports. The MoD was getting tired of repeated FOIA requests on UFOs so decided to release a load together. They probably still have more.

BTW, where are all the USG’s UFO reports??? It’s your turn Uncle.

Originally posted by Anonymous ATS
reply to post by NavalFC

 

Addressing your points:

Security – yes, some people make a lot of accusations without any specific evidence to back up their claims. That said, there are documents which prove the USG has had an interest in UFOs post 1969, when it claimed to stop investigating.

Secondly, no one, afaik, is saying everyone in all those agencies knows everything. Quite the opposite in fact, 99.8% in those agencies probably know nothing. Google Richard Dolan/Edgar Mitchell/Admiral Tom Wilson for some info on where the secrets could be. In short, it seems the real goodies are in the private sector.

Yes Freidman doesn’t like Lazar or Corso but others do. Paul Hellyer liked Corso because he provided dates, places and names that could be checked. Hellyer then contacted a retired US general friend who confirmed Corso’s book as correct. Sure, Hellyer has no first hand knowledge but then, he has never claimed to.

The UK MoD disclosure was exactly like you say – a mass release of old sightings reports. The MoD was getting tired of repeated FOIA requests on UFOs so decided to release a load together. They probably still have more.

BTW, where are all the USG’s UFO reports??? It’s your turn Uncle.

As faras Corso an Lazar goes, give all the time and dates you want, but when their backgrounds dont check out, such as Lazars ficticious schooling or Corsos non existent spot on the NSC, that sinks their story since the story relied on them holding those position and gaining knowledge that way.

Goodies in the private sector? as in business and coporations? So are you suggesting business and corps know more then the USG?

As far as the USG, there is project blue book for starters, but this isnt of consequence. Whether or not the USG investigated UFOs beyond 69 says nothing of whether or not they were aliens

USG having an interest doesnt equal government hiding aliens.
Given the time period alleged: IE: During the cold war it would only be natural for the government to have an interest in craft that could possibly be in their skies.

Originally posted by NavalFC

I am aware however I dont find it unusual that the CIA would want to invetigate something such as this to determine if it was a threat.
CIA investiating UFOs and then determining they werent a threat
does not equal: CIA knows aliens are here and is covering it up.

I am pretty sure CIA viewed the UFOs as a possible threat:

On numerous occasions, UFOs have been reported over nuclear power plants as well as nuclear research facilities and nuclear weapons storage bunkers at military bases. (1) A good percentage of these reports occurred at highly restricted government research and production facilities, such as Los Alamos, Oak Ridge, Hanford AEC, and Savannah River AEC. Highly trained government scientists and military personnel, who had been granted top-secret military clearances, made many of these reports.

In a well-documented series of incidents in early November 1975, nocturnal lights and unidentified “mystery helicopters” visited a wide spectrum of American military bases and missile sites across the northern tier of this country. Between October 27 and November 10, reports of UFOs over nuclear weapons storage sites were repeatedly made at Loring AFB in northern Maine, Wurtsmith AFB in Michigan, Grand Forks and Minot Air Force Bases in North Dakota, and Malmstrom AFB in Montana. F-106 interceptors were scrambled out of Malmstrom AFB near Great Falls, Montana in response to multiple reports of UFO visits to nearby missile sites near Moore, Harlowton, Lewistown, and several missile sites around Malmstrom AFB.

A similar rash of incursions occurred in December 1948 (Los Alamos), December 1950 (Oak Ridge), July 1952 (Hanford AEC, Savannah River AEC, and Los Alamos), August 1965 (Warren AFB near Cheyenne, WY), March 1967 (Minot AFB, Malmstrom AFB, and Los Alamos), August 1968 (Ellsworth AFB in South Dakota), August 1980 (Warren AFB, Sandia Labs and Kirtland AFB, NM), December 1980 (Benwaters RAFB, Suffolk, England), and October 1991 (Chernobyl, Ukraine and Arkhangel’sk Missile Base, Russia).

www.nicap.org...

Here is also a witness account of a UFO switching off a nuclear dummy warhead:

www.youtube.com...

Originally posted by ziggystar60

Originally posted by NavalFC

I am aware however I dont find it unusual that the CIA would want to invetigate something such as this to determine if it was a threat.
CIA investiating UFOs and then determining they werent a threat
does not equal: CIA knows aliens are here and is covering it up.

I am pretty sure CIA viewed the UFOs as a possible threat:

On numerous occasions, UFOs have been reported over nuclear power plants as well as nuclear research facilities and nuclear weapons storage bunkers at military bases. (1) A good percentage of these reports occurred at highly restricted government research and production facilities, such as Los Alamos, Oak Ridge, Hanford AEC, and Savannah River AEC. Highly trained government scientists and military personnel, who had been granted top-secret military clearances, made many of these reports.

In a well-documented series of incidents in early November 1975, nocturnal lights and unidentified “mystery helicopters” visited a wide spectrum of American military bases and missile sites across the northern tier of this country. Between October 27 and November 10, reports of UFOs over nuclear weapons storage sites were repeatedly made at Loring AFB in northern Maine, Wurtsmith AFB in Michigan, Grand Forks and Minot Air Force Bases in North Dakota, and Malmstrom AFB in Montana. F-106 interceptors were scrambled out of Malmstrom AFB near Great Falls, Montana in response to multiple reports of UFO visits to nearby missile sites near Moore, Harlowton, Lewistown, and several missile sites around Malmstrom AFB.

A similar rash of incursions occurred in December 1948 (Los Alamos), December 1950 (Oak Ridge), July 1952 (Hanford AEC, Savannah River AEC, and Los Alamos), August 1965 (Warren AFB near Cheyenne, WY), March 1967 (Minot AFB, Malmstrom AFB, and Los Alamos), August 1968 (Ellsworth AFB in South Dakota), August 1980 (Warren AFB, Sandia Labs and Kirtland AFB, NM), December 1980 (Benwaters RAFB, Suffolk, England), and October 1991 (Chernobyl, Ukraine and Arkhangel’sk Missile Base, Russia).

www.nicap.org...

Here is also a witness account of a UFO switching off a nuclear dummy warhead:

www.youtube.com...

So advanced aircraft are being seen over US military bases, especially over ones where aircraft R and D is done? Not unusual.

As far as the dummy warhead, have we seen the video? No. Have any of the man's superiors come forward to verify the incident? No. I don't take anything at face value, his word isn't good enough. We need evidence.

Even seemingly credible witnesses, such as Phillip Corso who was an army officer, can be found out to be liars.

Originally posted by NavalFC
Ok. What proves that said aircraft is alien? Unless you have a video of the aliens themselves coming out of the craft you cant say thats what it is.

I would suggest that even if you have aliens come out of the ship and tell you they are from another planet, you can't necessarily believe them. Aliens can't lie? If I sent a clone or something like that into our time from the future, I'd give them a very plausible alien cover story to try to minimize potential damage to the timeline. Just in case.

I would have no automatic reason to trust anything an "alien" says.

Originally posted by Nohup

Originally posted by NavalFC
Ok. What proves that said aircraft is alien? Unless you have a video of the aliens themselves coming out of the craft you cant say thats what it is.

I would suggest that even if you have aliens come out of the ship and tell you they are from another planet, you can't necessarily believe them. Aliens can't lie? If I sent a clone or something like that into our time from the future, I'd give them a very plausible alien cover story to try to minimize potential damage to the timeline. Just in case.

I would have no automatic reason to trust anything an "alien" says.

What are you talking about? If they come out of th ship and we see them, we would know if they were from Earth or not. The only criteria one needs to be considered a space alien is to come from somewhere other then the Earth, so where is the necessary belief, if one were to land and beings emerge?

Originally posted by NavalFC


As far as the dummy warhead, have we seen the video? No. Have any of the man's superiors come forward to verify the incident? No. I don't take anything at face value, his word isn't good enough. We need evidence.

I don't think any military would be willing to admit to being that vulnerable, let alone provide evidence to the fact.

[edit on 2-12-2008 by AvidWatcher]

Originally posted by AvidWatcher

Originally posted by NavalFC


As far as the dummy warhead, have we seen the video? No. Have any of the man's superiors come forward to verify the incident? No. I don't take anything at face value, his word isn't good enough. We need evidence.

I don't think any military would be willing to admit to being that vulnerable, let alone provide evidence to the fact.

[edit on 2-12-2008 by AvidWatcher]

well if the story is true this guy sure felt no problem coming forward with it. Yet he is the only one? None of his superiors, etc?

Originally posted by NavalFC

So advanced aircraft are being seen over US military bases, especially over ones where aircraft R and D is done? Not unusual.

As far as the dummy warhead, have we seen the video? No. Have any of the man's superiors come forward to verify the incident? No. I don't take anything at face value, his word isn't good enough. We need evidence.

Even seemingly credible witnesses, such as Phillip Corso who was an army officer, can be found out to be liars.

Well, as long as they are UFOs, there is no way of telling what these things really are. Advanced aircaft? Perhaps... Or perhaps some sort of energy, something from another dimension or time, we really do not know.

And no, we have not seen the video itself of the nuclear dummy being switched off. Not very likely that we will ever see it, either. Apollo astronaut Gordon Cooper has also told about UFO being filmed at Edwards Air Force Base:

"I had a camera crew filming the installation when they spotted a saucer. They filmed it as it flew overhead, then hovered, extended three legs as landing gear, and slowly came down to land on a dry lake bed!

"These guys were all pro cameramen, so the picture quality was very good.

"The camera crew managed to get within 20 or 30 yards of it, filming all the time. It was a classic saucer, shiny silver and smooth, about 30 feet across. It was pretty clear it was an alien craft.

"As they approached closer it took off."

When his camera crew handed over the film, Cooper followed standard procedure and contacted Washington to report the UFO ­ and "all heck broke loose," he said.

"After a while a high-ranking officer said when the film was developed I was to put it in a pouch and send it to Washington.

www.ufoevidence.org...

Needless to say, the film has never been seen again... But I would say Gordon Cooper is a fairly credible witness, would't you? What could he possibly gain by lying about this?

reply to post by ziggystar60


again though advanced unknown aircraft at a AFB does not = Alien cover up.

Id expect advanced aircraft to be flown at Air force bases where R and D research is done...

Iran Contra, Nixon, Clinton getting a blow job.. things the government was powerless to supress...they cant conceal a blow job but they can conceal alien visitation? I think not.