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“OMG! ‘Faith’ and ‘Quantum Physics’ are the SAME thing!” Well Maybe…??

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posted on Dec, 2 2008 @ 09:20 AM
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To help everyone out especially those who are new to QP or are unfamiliar with the movie, I found this link to watch "What the Bleep" fast and free!



posted on Dec, 2 2008 @ 09:24 AM
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I've got it on DVD! woot!

There's a sequel called "Down the Rabbit Hole" for those interested.



posted on Dec, 2 2008 @ 09:40 AM
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ive seen down the rabbit hole, very cheesy but lots of good info

One thing about this thing that i can do, it says somewhere (cant remember were, maybe in one of the movies) that when we change atoms with our minds that we cant influence other people, when we do the techniques they describe, although ive done it many times before


Any ways a thought that i had was something that no one has brought up yet that holds a huge amount of complexity to it.

If we are consciously creating the world we live in to some degree, where did the first world come from,

were did this original come from with the rules pertaining to thew sky and the limitations of the universe, with the rules of gravity etc.

Someone had to have started it off, and then the more i think about it the more it looks as if creationism starts to make a lot more sense and this place we live in starts to look a lot more like a prison.

Suddenly the idea surrounding the Matrix stories doesnt seem so far fetched.

im not saying we are in a computer program, but i think we might be somewhere meant to be like it.

And we are trapped, but those who let their minds escape are able to change and influence the matrix.

This brings me to another thought are plants and animals able to change things as well using their thoughts or are they just "programs"?

Something to ponder from the Tthinker



posted on Dec, 2 2008 @ 09:53 AM
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We'll OT did mention that in the OP...

Can of 'created'
worms there...

Using my treo...so gotta be breif...

God thought, God said, and we all see?

Fire away boys! I'll be checkin' in



posted on Dec, 2 2008 @ 10:23 AM
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reply to post by nj2day
 


Love is the bridge. Love is the key. Love is everything.



posted on Dec, 2 2008 @ 10:32 AM
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reply to post by OldThinker
 


While I appreciate your effort that went into this, I mostly got a "indistinguishable from magic" quote popping in my head.

The same old argument that if we can't understand it, it must be from God?
Did anyone else get that from this or is it just me?

Note: this is not an attack.. just an observation.



posted on Dec, 2 2008 @ 10:38 AM
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reply to post by gormly
 



Hey gormly, Are you asking about the OP? Or my last short statement, with a question mark?

OT

Thanks for asking btw!



posted on Dec, 2 2008 @ 10:39 AM
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reply to post by gormly
 

Also, great avatar...comments!!

OT



posted on Dec, 2 2008 @ 10:43 AM
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reply to post by gormly
 


One of the things that I see in most of these comments is that quantum theory,string theory and all other scientific maps are rigorously defined by mathematics.It may be a level of math that most of us wouldn't recognize but the strong definitions and rules are in the math. In faith there is no such definition at all, just a way of looking at life and phenomena.

It also sort of annoys me when people ask a perfectly good question and then it gets muddied by quotes from the Bible or some other book of folk tales like that. Lets keep our philosophy seperate from our rigorously defined science, ok?



posted on Dec, 2 2008 @ 11:01 AM
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Originally posted by OldThinker
reply to post by gormly
 



Hey gormly, Are you asking about the OP? Or my last short statement, with a question mark?

OT

Thanks for asking btw!


I was asking basically about the OP but my thinking was probably a bit biased by the many subsequent comments as well.

That plus I find it personally annoying (not you.. or your ideas) in my life when people say things like "he moves in mysterious ways" or "Gods will" when speaking with the religious. They tend to dismiss anything they do not understand as "God", it's like a catch all for scientific ignorance.

Then to read equating talk between bible/god/quantum/science just kind of brings it all to head.

again, not an attack on you... I just can't shate that feeling.

and yea, I agree, my Avatar is pretty cool.
(your probably the only other one who thinks so.. I get a lot of negativity for that)



posted on Dec, 2 2008 @ 11:23 AM
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Originally posted by gormly
reply to post by OldThinker
 


While I appreciate your effort that went into this, I mostly got a "indistinguishable from magic" quote popping in my head.

The same old argument that if we can't understand it, it must be from God?
Did anyone else get that from this or is it just me?

Note: this is not an attack.. just an observation.





I thought that OT was saying we did find an explanation its called quantum physics, which could also be used to explain faith and how it works....correct me if I've got it wrong.....



posted on Dec, 2 2008 @ 12:47 PM
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I fear that if we do manage to survive long enough to discover the nature of our universe we may not like it very much.



posted on Dec, 2 2008 @ 12:51 PM
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I think the common core of both is they all boil down to chance vrs certainty when 'anything is possible' is concerned.



posted on Dec, 2 2008 @ 01:22 PM
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Since I am a "gawrsh-she-has-no-life-scholar", I'm familiar with the things you're talking about. Soooo....


Originally posted by OldThinker

With ALL that said….here goes!

Implications/Questions?
A) Is there a connection/similarity between faith and material? If so, what?

No. Acts within and of the material are 100% replicable. If I say "I will cut this tree down" and take a chainsaw and cut all the way through it at an angle, it will fall over and go BOOM 100% of the time. Faith isn't replicatable or testable ("if I pray this prayer in this manner wearing these clothes at this time, this acne pimple will disappear within 2 minutes.")


B) Are words the bridge?

Words are the bridge to many concepts. But, if you mean "Can I change the path of the next three bosons by thinking I'm magnetic?" the answer is "no." There are a number of rigorous ways to test this, and the answer is still "no."


C) Is the Lord Jesus the missing ‘substance’ holding all ‘things’ together?

No. (explanation too long to go into right now.)


D) Is there time in eternity? Are past-on relatives ‘waiting’ for us in Heaven?


Depends on how you define eternity.
Not scientifically testable. Near death experiences of all faiths indicate that this may be true for anyone of any faith (and atheists as well.)


E) Is ‘speed’ the key to the infinite? Is it His home?

No. Basically speed is a property (like 'blue').


F) How does the Law of Attraction fit?

Which "law of attraction?" There are several. The one you cited was interpreted in an unusual way.


G) Did Christ ‘slow down’ to be the incarnate?

No... and there seems to be some information missing from your understanding of speed and time.


H) Can we (humans) mimic the creation-theme (on a small scale?)

We create every day in many ways, including creating our perception of the day. Furthermore, these creations evolve (the day starts out well and you learn some new things which change your view of a certain part of the world.)

Probably not what you meant, but in a metaphysical sense, yes.


I) Are the ramifications for ‘creationism’, ID, and evolution here?

Yes. It'll probably never be integrated into creationism because it's counter to several Biblical teachings. ID may incorporate something like "what the bleep do we know" to attempt to make others think it's scientific. On a public teaching scale, perhaps some of it may be taught by some teachers.

To the folks who have studied this and done the math, only a handful believe in it (Roger Penrose) and his belief isn't quite what you've described. I doubt it'll get any more converts because when you take it from the theoretical into the real world, the experiments don't give consistent answers.


J) What other bible verses would add to the dialog?

Why the Bible? It's a book created by people who spent 100 years arguing about it in religious conferences composed of some of the inspirational texts from one culture created over a span of 700 years.

Why not the Mahabdarata? Why not I Ching? why not Confucius? Lao Tzu? Socrates? Plato? Augustine?

Better yet, why not the writings of modern mathematicians and cosmologists?


K) What other secular sources/schools of discipline that would contribute?

A set of good books on math, science, astronomy, geology, and then several books on physics and subatomic particles. Then a course (or several) in quantitative and qualitative research so you know how to set up a question and look for the answer.

I'd also recommend courses in religion (something where you actually have to read a whole book rather than a chapter or verse and analyze it in context of what was going on in the writer's world.) And a course or two in philosophy, particularly discourses about Truth and perception.

I'm not being dismissive of you, but your sources are pretty darn poor (they're making up stuff based on a bad understanding of something.) You wouldn't be able to tell the chaff from the wheat without a better grounding in those fields.

Please don't interpret this as contempt. I see a sincere and questioning mind that has found some darn interesting stuff -- but a mind that doesn't have a background in things like dynamic systems equations and hasn't struggled through a few books on the nature of physics and time (I have.)

I'll give you some podcasts after I log on this evening (if you like podcasts) or link you to some reading material (if you'd rather have that) which can sort of get you up to speed on what's actually said in quantum mechanics and astronomy.

Do you have a format you prefer for your info? I don't do Youtube because the material there is generally such poor quality that it takes forever to find something decent. But I can link videos from universities or podcasts or papers...whichever you'd prefer to have.

Must dash. Sorry for quick and inefficient reply.



posted on Dec, 2 2008 @ 01:39 PM
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Originally posted by Anonymous ATS
reply to post by gormly
 


One of the things that I see in most of these comments is that quantum theory,string theory and all other scientific maps are rigorously defined by mathematics.It may be a level of math that most of us wouldn't recognize but the strong definitions and rules are in the math. In faith there is no such definition at all, just a way of looking at life and phenomena.

It also sort of annoys me when people ask a perfectly good question and then it gets muddied by quotes from the Bible or some other book of folk tales like that. Lets keep our philosophy seperate from our rigorously defined science, ok?



I dont think you read the beginning of the thread. It was also about faith not just science and it also included BIBLE scripture....so if that bothers you find another thread. So the conversation was posed in the context of Christianity.

[edit on 2-12-2008 by Cairowoman]



posted on Dec, 2 2008 @ 01:42 PM
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reply to post by gormly
 


speculative connecting the dots - no harm - I think these topics provoke open-mindedness to creativity, even though they come from the ambiguous and not the empirical - after all this is how new ideas and theories formulate.



posted on Dec, 2 2008 @ 02:12 PM
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reply to post by tankthinker
 



Someone had to have started it off, and then the more i think about it the more it looks as if creationism starts to make a lot more sense and this place we live in starts to look a lot more like a prison.

Suddenly the idea surrounding the Matrix stories doesnt seem so far fetched.

im not saying we are in a computer program, but i think we might be somewhere meant to be like it.

And we are trapped, but those who let their minds escape are able to change and influence the matrix.


Now you are speaking my language! Look to my moniker!



posted on Dec, 2 2008 @ 04:04 PM
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reply to post by OldThinker
 


The use of the word observer has confused everyone about this. There is no reason to suppose that a "conscious observer" is a necessary ingredient for the collapse of wave probability functions. Consequential interaction with any other particle is sufficient.

I'd be glad to stand corrected if I'm wrong on this.

Has there been a double slit experiment where the measurement of "which slit the particle went in" is calculated, recorded and furthermore destroyed to prevent it from reaching a conscious observer? Such an experiment would answer the question I think. And AFIK the observer needs not to be conscious.

-rrr



posted on Dec, 2 2008 @ 04:22 PM
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Originally posted by gormly

Originally posted by OldThinker
reply to post by gormly



I was asking basically about the OP but my thinking was probably a bit biased by the many subsequent comments as well.

That plus I find it personally annoying (not you.. or your ideas) in my life when people say things like "he moves in mysterious ways" or "Gods will" when speaking with the religious. They tend to dismiss anything they do not understand as "God", it's like a catch all for scientific ignorance.

Then to read equating talk between bible/god/quantum/science just kind of brings it all to head.



Man I understand how the fuzziness often seem from religion would frustrate you...

it really frustrates me...and I go to church with these people...


OT recognizes the OP is reaching....just looking for input...


The greek for for 'substance' in the faith definiiton is quite interesting, you would agree?

OT



posted on Dec, 2 2008 @ 04:35 PM
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I seen mention of the movie the matrix. I'm not sure if many people realize this, but that movie speaks alot of truth on a philosophical level. Neo also represents Christ in the movie. The machines represent the evil, as they have no heart or real understanding, as a result of being complex machines with no free will. Everything the machine does is literal and strict, the same as the evil pharisees who persecuted Jesus. One of my favorite all time movies, and not because of that action in it either.

Here's a good movie talking about the philosophy of the matrix.


Google Video Link


Also, what I mentioned before about the universe is mathematical in nature. I'm sure you've all seen and heard of flatland by now, especially since what the bleep has been mentioned.

Well 4d is a bunch of 3d realities stacked "on top" of each other. The nearest 3d realities will make up the 4d reality. If you could perceive 4d, then you would see the keyboard all around you in each of the nearest spots, and the same goes for every object around you including your body.

We consider the 4th dimension to be time, and that is not far off. In fact, we can somewhat see this effect because of time, as we do move through the 4th dimension and higher. Take your hand, movie it from the left to the right. Now, visualize your hand being in all those places at once. That is the path you just took in the 4d.

As for the basic things we do not see changing, like the position of the earth around the sun, and so on. These things require a much much higher jump than just the 4d. 5d for example is just a bunch of 4d stacked and so on.

You would have to make a huge jump, even beyond 5d and such to change the real physics of things. I mean huge jumps. I see people call these alternate universes, but they only view them as alternate universes because of how far the jump is.

A big dimensional jump for example would be like going 1000 years in the past from today. The earth is in another place all together, and the technology and such of the times is much different. Or if you go 1000 years in the future.

I see mention of 11 dimensions of science. This isn't exactly true, but you have to crawl before you can walk, and it is a step in the right direction. Just as quantum physics can only see hints of the partial wave.

There are other factors such as frequency which regulate our perception and so on. Perception plays a huge role in all this. I've learned what I've learned by trying to gain as much perception/perspective as I possibly can.

Oh, and a little bible goody. Would you purposely limit your perspective? YES! We do it all the time when we watch movies. Why? Boredom. Why did god create man? Boredom! To take on a limited perception. The fun is in learning and increasing the perception. God is in each of us, we are all god in limited perception. But it is important to realize - you are not the only one. That is where someone like Satan goes wrong. When you understand god is in each of us, then it makes sense why the commandments say what they do, and why they are sins "against" god.




[edit on 2-12-2008 by badmedia]



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