Book of Revelation talk!

This is important information to be clear on as "The Prince that Shall Come" is expected any day now, (if he's not already on the scene...)

I've studied this book with Dr Chuck Missler recently. Here is some pertinent information from my notes. I believe the 1st rider is certainly the Antichrist and he is a real man.

1st Seal: The White Horse/The Overcoming Conqueror
" And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer."

The Horses are judgements. Rider is NOT Christ: this guy keeps bad company. Christ is opening the seals: He is not inside them. This rider will resemble Christ; Furthermore, this one is called by the living creatures; hardly fitting for Christ Himself.

And like Ashley pointed out his “Crown”: stephanos, the victor’s crown, not a diadem. Christ will wear a diadema, the crown of a sovereign, reigning monarch (Rev 19:12).

Antichrist is only one of many names given this guy. I don't know why Antichrist is the one that stuck. "Mr Bigmouth" would be a better one as he always seems to be bragging...

Apparently he will suffer a wound. Here is what he will look like:

Woe to the idol shepherd that leaveth the flock! the sword shall be upon his arm, and upon his right eye: his arm shall be clean dried up, and his right eye shall be utterly darkened.
[Zechariah 11:17]

Old Testament Allusions (from a longer list of 33)
• Seed of the Serpent Gen 3:15
• Idol Shepherd Zech 11:16, 17
• Little Horn Dan 7:8-11, 21-26; 8:9-12, 23-25
• Prince that shall come Dan 9:26
• Willful King Dan 11:36

New Testament Allusions (from 13)
• Beast Rev 11:7; 13
• False Prophet Rev 13
• Antichrist (Pseudo-Christ) 1 John 2:22
• Lawless One 2 Thess 2:8
• Man of Sin 2 Thess 2:3
• One come in his own name John 5:43
• Son of Perdition 2 Thess 2:3

His Characteristics
• An intellectual genius Dan 7:20; 8:23; Eze 28:3
• An persuasive orator Dan 7:20; Rev 13:2
• A shrewd politician Dan 11:21; Dan 8:25;
• A financial genius Rev 13:17; Ezek 28:4, 5; Ps 52:7;
Dan 11:38, 43;
• A forceful military leader Dan 8:24; Rev 6:2; Rev 13:4;
Isa 4:16
• A powerful organizer Rev 13:1,2; 17:17
• A unifying religious guru 2 Thess 2:4; Rev 13:3, 14, 15

I just wanted to clear up the idea that he is only mentioned in the 1 John passage... as he is identified by many names throughout the Old and New Testaments and AntiChrist means "instead of" or psuedo Christ.

reply to post by slymattb

For 12-14 I was always carious about the stars falling from the sky. We all the how space works. And I think its pretty much impossible for the stars to fall to the earth????And what does the "The sky receded like a scroll"???

One thing you need to know about the book of Revelation, it is all in code but every single code is revealed within the scriptures, usually it is a reference to an Old Testament passage. Most people get off track in Revelation by not knowing the OT very well and just making stuff up. Curious that I am currently studying the book of Isaiah and I was confronted with this passage right after making my post.

This is Isaiah's vision of the exact same events of the tribulation way back in 700 BC (esv)

" Draw near, O nations, to hear, and give attention, O peoples! Let the earth hear, and all that fills it; the world, and all that comes from it. For the Lord is enraged against all the nations, and furious against all their host; he has devoted them to destruction, has given them over for slaughter. Their slain shall be cast out, and the stench of their corpses shall rise; the mountains shall flow with their blood. All the host of heaven shall rot away, and the skies roll up like a scroll. All their host shall fall, as leaves fall from the vine, like leaves falling from the fig tree." (Is 34:1-4)

I think the skies rolling up like a scroll is reference to something that will really happen before God creates a new heaven and earth. If you consider that physicists believe we live in 10-11 dimensions (not just the 4 we are aware of). The ones we aren't aware of are said to be curled up in less than a planck length. "Curled" being the interesting term. When you think in these terms God rolling up our known reality begins to seem feasible, at least I can imagine it.

Originally posted by AshleyD
Very true. But don't forget the Bible mentions two separate things: The spirit of Antichrist and the actual 'Man of lawlessness' [The AC]. There most definitely is a continual AC spirit that is prevalent in all generations then it mentions a specific person that will embody that spirit.

however, there are several possibilities

1 - is that your dead on. the man of lawlessness is an antichrist like no other before.

2 - man of lawlessness is a position. or title.

the reason i believe 2 is the following.

verse 1 - Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

so the entire chapter is talking about jesus ¨coming¨ or the greek ¨parousia¨ or presence

this places it sometime before jesus´ more obvious second coming. (the coming that makes nations beat themselves in lamentations.)

i posted information in another thread that explains when the gentile times end and jesus is enthroned. it points to the early 1900´s as the beginning of jesus´¨parousia¨

i cant emphasizing this enough, im not talking about is more visible coming mentioned later in matt 24, im talking about the presence mentioned in the beginning of 24.

verse 2, the congregation was startled because they were told by someone (not the apostles) that the lord´s day (parousia) has come.

verse 3, he states that the lord´s day will not come until the apostasy comes and the man of lawlessness has been revealed

here´s the problem with the antichrist theory. this man is revealed before the lord´s day, meaning it is obvious who he might be long before the early 1900´s

is this something that could have happened?

well the apostasy happened quick. as the last of the apostles died, dissenters where quick to start false doctrines. by the 4th century, the church was teaching the trinity, immortality of the soul, and hellfire.

it wasnt long before the church taught things very contrary to what the bible teaches.

who was this man of lawlessness?

well who is in charge of the church? is it not the clergy that determine the policy of the church? some people might point to the pope specifically as this man, but catholicism is the only church involved in this apostasy. other churchs and denominations participate in perpetuating false doctrine. the clergy should know better.

in the past, the chruch was sometimes as bad if not worse than the sinners they condemned. bishops, even popes were sometimes involved in atrocities that made them blood guilty.

even today, isnt the pedophilia scandal what everyone thinks about when talking about the sins of the church?

thing is sometimes, they believe their own lies. verse 11 says that god sends a strong delusion, but the original greek translates better in saying that god permits them to believe their own lies.

verse 8 - And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

christs parousia reveals them.

unfortunately i cant get into this until we reach ¨babylon the great¨ and i think sly would want me to hold off

" False doctrine "

no no no, Miraim, to you it's false doctrine, but not to a billion catholics, me, and the saints.

secondly the man is a single person talked about in revelations. He is a singular false prophet, so he will be one guy.

Timothy talks about one man sitting in Gods temple and ruling for a while, 3 years,

So if the church is the new temple, I believe he will hold the popes throne as an anti pope, or rebuild the temple.

This shall come shortly, and the Vatican 2 false church because freemasons infest the vatican right now, are preparing for the one world order.

many souls shall be brought back to the fold after God rebuilds the church, but this will happen afterwards.


peace.

Originally posted by JesusisTruth
many souls shall be brought back to the fold after God rebuilds the church, but this will happen afterwards.

thats true, but its my belief that this event has already happened.

when jesus´ parousia started, so did the preaching of the gospel mention in matt 24.

its something that has happened, i dont believe it is a future event

First and foremost. The idea that Satan has not been in control for over the past 2000 years is wrong. He has always been "god" of this world, ruler of this world, king of this world. In the end times, he is merely confined to rule only here. This is made obvious because Jesus says the prince comes soon(2000 years ago), and of course Satan offers Jesus the world - which means Satan had control of it, and also Jesus says - this is not my kingdom.

As for the churches, I'm not sure what they all are, but I believe the church of Philadelphia is the the USA. Which was founding in Philadelphia in the city of brotherly love. The original churches were in middle east, but I think this is the modern day church. However, ONLY the spirit of this church, not all the people or things it does. The spirit on what it was founded on. That key of david it mentions I think is the constitution. Because it has protected many people who actually know it, and even in the roughest of times it's protected even those who don't know it. This shouldn't be confused with anything the US government does as being a part of it. The constitution/key of david is just the protection(and why it's always under attack).

Because the kind of people the constitution really helps are the same kind of people David lead. The socially unwanted/persecuted etc.

And in comparison to the rest of the world - we have escaped alot of judgment and harshness. Not really going to find a place that has suffered less.

Ok I would like to go to the the next seals.

bible quote
Revelation 6
The Seals
9When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained. 10They called out in a loud voice, "How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?" 11Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and brothers who were to be killed as they had been was completed.

12I watched as he opened the sixth seal. There was a great earthquake. The sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair, the whole moon turned blood red, 13and the stars in the sky fell to earth, as late figs drop from a fig tree when shaken by a strong wind. 14The sky receded like a scroll, rolling up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place.

15Then the kings of the earth, the princes, the generals, the rich, the mighty, and every slave and every free man hid in caves and among the rocks of the mountains. 16They called to the mountains and the rocks, "Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! 17For the great day of their wrath has come, and who can stand?"

For 9-11
The first question I would like to ask which I think I do know. But I know some here have other thoughts. Who are the souls in the altar. What does it mean that they're under the altar. The actual placement of the souls carouses me. I even almost picture them in some kind of black whole. But it says under the altar. Are they souls or do they have bodies. They where given robs???

For 12-14
I was always carious about the stars falling from the sky. We all the how space works. And I think its pretty much impossible for the stars to fall to the earth????And what does the "The sky receded like a scroll"???

For 15-17
IF there is any thoughts bring them up.

NOTE: on a personal note. I know some believe that the rapture will come. If when people through scripture in revelation says that the rapture is happening lets bring it up. I feel that the rapture is possibility. And I know when some believe it will happen. But if it is going to happen I believe scripture will prove it. I have read the Left behind books. And they give a really good picture on what will happen if it true.

PS: I want us to discuss the scriptures above. When it comes to talking about revelations lets only talk about when it happens and what scripture proves it in revelations. This is not a discussion on rapture.

Please lets continue I am really interest in other people thoughts on the whole of revelations.

[edit on 27-12-2008 by slymattb]

reply to post by slymattb


Hello There

I believe these letters def went to those Churches at that time. so that would suggest hey all exsisted at one moment in time. Yet they clearly define the church ages over time. So they are an overview of all the believers as a collective over all time but also individuals and for want of a better term also the individual denominations/organisations.

David

Originally posted by slymattb
For 9-11
The first question I would like to ask which I think I do know. But I know some here have other thoughts. Who are the souls in the altar. What does it mean that they're under the altar. The actual placement of the souls carouses me. I even almost picture them in some kind of black whole. But it says under the altar. Are they souls or do they have bodies. They where given robs???

the slain souls are under the alter because their deaths are viewed as sacrificial.

to explain this, you have to understand that he soul or ¨life¨ of a person is symbolized by their blood.

in leviticus 4:[7] And the priest shall put some of the blood upon the horns of the altar of sweet incense before the LORD, which is in the tabernacle of the congregation: and shall pour all the blood of the bullock at the bottom of the altar of the burnt offering, which is at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation.

pouring the blood at the base of the altar was part of the requirements when making sacrifices.

verse 9 states that these slain ones maintained their testimony. so while they werent killed by god, their deaths are viewed as sacrificial.

another point could be made that these are also those with a ¨heavenly calling¨. in this respect, their deaths could be viewed as sacrificial in that they give up a hope to live forever on earth.

------

do the souls have bodies? well no, these souls are dead (eccl 9:5)

yet they cry out in that god´s perfect justice demands that they be answered. abel´s blood cried out in that god needed an accounting for it. (luke 18: 7,8)

as for the white robes, rev 3:[5] He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels. 4:[4] And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.

the white robes imply that they are sanctified. made perfect. they are given these robes when they are resurrected and assume their position in the court of god because they are now worthy to be there.

For 12-14
I was always carious about the stars falling from the sky. We all the how space works. And I think its pretty much impossible for the stars to fall to the earth????And what does the "The sky receded like a scroll"???

jeremiah prophesied about the fall of isreal with similar language.

jer 4:[27] For thus hath the LORD said, The whole land shall be desolate; yet will I not make a full end.
[28] For this shall the earth mourn, and the heavens above be black: because I have spoken it, I have purposed it, and will not repent, neither will I turn back from it.

this was reference to a spiritual darkness, not necessarily a literal darkness. to the isrealites, their worship was cut off. god eventually cut himself off from them since they were so unrepentant.

same pronouncement was given to babylon (isaiah 13:9-11)

what this implies is that in this last day, the earth will be shaken. everything that we think is permanent will seem to come apart. even mountains and islands (something that you would not see move unless through amazing extraordinary circumstances) would be moved.

the heavens be rolled up refer to rulership of this world.

isaiah 34:[4] And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their host shall fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling fig from the fig tree.

this pronouncement was referring in particular to the land of edom, their leadership or government was permanently destroyed.

the worlds rulers today will be rolled up and destroyed like those in edom

For 15-17
IF there is any thoughts bring them up.

mountains too can refer to governments. (see daniel) its possible that when all this is going on and all of civilization is crumbling, people will put faith in the only things that provided security in their lives, like money, or the government, or even their religion. but its all to avoid facing the one who´s causing it.

Thanks Miriam for still posting in this thread. I guess people dont want to talk about revelations. I am moving on in scripture to revelations. I will go straight to the seven seal and skip (144,000 Sealed v 1-8) and (The Great Multitude in White Robes v 9-17) because I think they are self evident.

Bible Quote
Revelation 8 1-13
The Seventh Seal and the Golden Censer
1When he opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven for about half an hour.
2And I saw the seven angels who stand before God, and to them were given seven trumpets.

3Another angel, who had a golden censer, came and stood at the altar. He was given much incense to offer, with the prayers of all the saints, on the golden altar before the throne. 4The smoke of the incense, together with the prayers of the saints, went up before God from the angel's hand. 5Then the angel took the censer, filled it with fire from the altar, and hurled it on the earth; and there came peals of thunder, rumblings, flashes of lightning and an earthquake.

I dont think we have to talk this part, but if you have any thoughts feek free! But the Trumpets lets start there!

Bible Quote
Revelation 8 1-13
The Trumpets
6Then the seven angels who had the seven trumpets prepared to sound them.
7The first angel sounded his trumpet, and there came hail and fire mixed with blood, and it was hurled down upon the earth. A third of the earth was burned up, a third of the trees were burned up, and all the green grass was burned up.

I think I understand hail and fire, like acid rain kinda right??? But what does it mean all at is mix with blood??? Does it mean that the hail and fire will mix with blood killing people when it hits earth????

Bible Quote
Revelation 8 1-13
8The second angel sounded his trumpet, and something like a huge mountain, all ablaze, was thrown into the sea. A third of the sea turned into blood, 9a third of the living creatures in the sea died, and a third of the ships were destroyed.

So obiously this is a big rock hiting earth thing. We both know when a rock comes to earth the rock burns in the atimouspher. And everything obiously a 3rd of everything dies in the sea.

Bible Quote
Revelation 8 1-13
10The third angel sounded his trumpet, and a great star, blazing like a torch, fell from the sky on a third of the rivers and on the springs of water— 11the name of the star is Wormwood.[a] A third of the waters turned bitter, and many people died from the waters that had become bitter.

I a still yet confused when it says a star fell on earth. I dont see how it could actual happen. Maybe this is a angel. We know that stars do represent people. Like the star of David, of the star that appread to the wise men when Jesus was born. I think the Name of the start Wormwood is important but I dont know why.

Bible Quote
Revelation 8 1-13
12The fourth angel sounded his trumpet, and a third of the sun was struck, a third of the moon, and a third of the stars, so that a third of them turned dark. A third of the day was without light, and also a third of the night.

I believe this is self evident. But any thoughts????

Bible Quote
Revelation 8 1-1313As I watched, I heard an eagle that was flying in midair call out in a loud voice: "Woe! Woe! Woe to the inhabitants of the earth, because of the trumpet blasts about to be sounded by the other three angels!"

I believe the next trujpets are the worst and the woes are coming??? God bless


BRB to finish


[edit on 7-1-2009 by slymattb]