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Book of Revelation talk!

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posted on Dec, 1 2008 @ 12:47 PM
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As I personal believe that we're in the end of times, and that the book of Revelations is a important book of our future. I want to make a thread that talks about all the chapters within the book.

I want to start with the first 3 chapters of the book. Which first talk about that the book is the revelation of Jesus Christ himself. Who gave John the revelation.

The second and 3rd chapters are the 7 letters to the seven angels of the churches. (I don't have a bible right now can some post the name of the churches)

What I want to know is who are the churches (or religion) are they still alive today (I heard that they are not), and where are they? and who are the angels that they are talking about. Every letter written says to the angels of church.

I want us to goes through every book with detain so that those that don't know can know.

God bless!!

[edit on 1-12-2008 by slymattb]



posted on Dec, 1 2008 @ 01:10 PM
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The seven churches are the the seven eras of the church leading up to the end times. They are Ephesus, Smyrna, Pergamos, Thyatira, Sardis, Philadelphia, Laodicea.



posted on Dec, 1 2008 @ 03:59 PM
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Before we start; I would like an explanation.

Why do so many Christians take the KJV as the literal word of God, not open to interpretation but on the other hand play fast and loose with Revelations and say that it's just symbolism?



posted on Dec, 1 2008 @ 04:13 PM
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Well I think because they're stupid. If you take the bible as the word of God. Then you have to take revelations as God's word. And I personal believe that we have to get as close to the original language that the bible was written in.

Please do not go off topic again. I would like to stay on topic. God bless and thank you.



posted on Dec, 1 2008 @ 04:25 PM
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reply to post by whaaa
 



Before we start; I would like an explanation.

Why do so many Christians take the KJV as the literal word of God, not open to interpretation but on the other hand play fast and loose with Revelations and say that it's just symbolism?


As the original poster requested, he/she only wants to talk about what he/she posted. That is quite fine with me.

I, on the other hand, would actually like your question to become it's own thread and I would like to participate in it.

Please feel free to start a thread like that? (Or anyone, if they are interested.)



posted on Dec, 1 2008 @ 04:43 PM
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reply to post by slymattb
 


Here's one of the best studies I have seen on the seven churches of Revelation. It gives the meaning of Revelations 2 & 3 in a current sense as they were in antiquity as well as the prophetic foreshadowing they hold throughout the church age:

Part I
Part II
Part III

All three parts dissect and explain all seven churches.

And here is his study on chapter 1 as well since you mentioned that, too:

gracethrufaith.com...

Well worth the read.



posted on Dec, 1 2008 @ 04:51 PM
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Nice site Ashley I got alot to read. Just a quick question. Why does it say to the angels of the church????



posted on Dec, 1 2008 @ 05:18 PM
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reply to post by slymattb
 


I don't know for sure but this is the commentary my study Bible offers:


The seven stars/angels possibly represent angels who are assigned, each to a church, to assist it in its spiritual warfare (See: Matthew 18:10 and Revelation 2:20), or the pastors of these churches.


-The Full Life Study Bible. Page 2006. Footnote 1:16.



posted on Dec, 16 2008 @ 01:15 PM
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Well now we can start after the letters and the begining of the the revelation. Lets talk about the seals, and the woes. I believe chapter 5 . Lets start with the 4 horse men.


Bible quote
Revelation 6
The Seals
1I watched as the Lamb opened the first of the seven seals. Then I heard one of the four living creatures say in a voice like thunder, "Come!" 2I looked, and there before me was a white horse! Its rider held a bow, and he was given a crown, and he rode out as a conqueror bent on conquest.

3When the Lamb opened the second seal, I heard the second living creature say, "Come!" 4Then another horse came out, a fiery red one. Its rider was given power to take peace from the earth and to make men slay each other. To him was given a large sword.

5When the Lamb opened the third seal, I heard the third living creature say, "Come!" I looked, and there before me was a black horse! Its rider was holding a pair of scales in his hand. 6Then I heard what sounded like a voice among the four living creatures, saying, "A quart[a] of wheat for a day's wages, and three quarts of barley for a day's wages,[c] and do not damage the oil and the wine!"

7When the Lamb opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth living creature say, "Come!" 8I looked, and there before me was a pale horse! Its rider was named Death, and Hades was following close behind him. They were given power over a fourth of the earth to kill by sword, famine and plague, and by the wild beasts of the earth.


Who are the four horse men. I know that they symbolize war and death. But I figure some of you have other things to say about them????



posted on Dec, 17 2008 @ 05:25 AM
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the ride of the 4 horseman always struck me as interesting. and it actually has changed my perception jesus' "second coming"

---the first horse is described as white, which usually means purity or righteousness. for example, the great multitude are described as having washed their robes in the blood of the lamb. this implies that they have cleaned themselves (or have taken advantage of christ's sacrifice and are now righteous. the rider is also described as having been given a crown, and he goes off conquering.

daniel talks about the son of man receiving a crown, which we know to be jesus. so my guess is that this is jesus.

since the passage talks about this crown being given to him, i would place his ride around the time he is actually appointed king. if you consider daniel 4, then we have this period of 2520 years where no king ruled over isreal.

if you calculate from when the last king ruled judah (607B.C.) then you arrive at 1914 as the date jesus was enthroned. this i believe is when the first horseman began to ride.

---- the second horse is symbolic for war. 1914, the great war started, it was over shadowed by a bigger WWII.

since, about 180 million people have been killed in different wars all around the world. i dont remember were, but i remember reading that there have been only a month or 2 worth of days that ther hasnt been a war fighting somewhere on earth. even the international year of peace only had a few days of actual peace.

users.erols.com...

this i believe is the ride of the second horseman

---- famine was the 3rd.


During the 20th century, an estimated 70 million people died from famines across the world, of whom an estimated 30 million died during the famine of 1958–61 in China. The other most notable famines of the century included the 1942–1945 disaster in Bengal, famines in China in 1928 and 1942, and a sequence of famines in the Soviet Union, including the Holodomor, Stalin's famine inflicted on Ukraine in 1932–33. A few of the great famines of the late 20th century were: the Biafran famine in the 1960s, the disaster in Cambodia in the 1970s, the Ethiopian famine of 1983–85 and the North Korean famine of the 1990s.


en.wikipedia.org...

---- plague the fouth

with fluenza, sars, polio, tebuculosis, aids, malaria, cholera. most of these (like war) have happened before, but after 1900, they accelerated. spanish influenza killed as many as 100 million alone.

en.wikipedia.org...

--- the fourth is followed by death.


Approximately 4,126,000,000 people have died during this century from all causes. If man-made megadeaths account for 185 million of them, then one out of every 22 (or 4.5%) human deaths during the 20th Century have been caused by fellow humans.


i take his following to mean that it is a very dangerous century to live in. but the point i would like to make about these horse men, since the early 1900's things in the world havent been the same. at least not on the scale they are now.



posted on Dec, 17 2008 @ 09:37 AM
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reply to post by miriam0566
 


It looks like you believe the four horsemen are historical and have already begun to show their presence. However, I truly believe it is futuristic for the tribulation. Also, I strongly disagree that the rider on the white horse is Jesus but is instead, almost certainly, the Antichrist.

You mention the fact the rider is wearing a crown and that Jesus is depicted as wearing a crown in other passages, therefore this rider is Jesus.

However, the word used for the white rider's crown is stephanons, signifying governmental power/rulership or victory. However, the word used for Jesus' crown throughout scripture is diadem, signifying exalted, kingly status and royalty. This rider on the white horse is not wearing the Jesus' style of crown.


In the second place this guy’s wearing the wrong kind of crown. The Greek word for a king’s crown is diadem. But this one wears a stephanos, or victor’s crown. It was the award given to winners in the ancient Olympics and other public games. It was typically an ivy wreath, and in fact the word stephanos comes from a root meaning wreath. It identifies the wearer as a conqueror, but not as royalty. And in Revelation 13 where the Great Tribulation begins, we’re told that He was given power to make war against the saints and to conquer them. And he was given authority over every tribe, people, language and nation. (Rev. 13:7) Why would Jesus make war with the tribulation saints to conquer them? Like I said, while he fools people into thinking he’s the Christ, he’s really the anti-Christ.


gracethrufaith.com...

Also, the weapon Jesus is always associated with is the sword but this white horseman is depicted as carrying a bow with no arrows. This signifies the fact he will arrive on the scene claiming to be peaceful yet he will be anything but.


I say that because this rider is most definitely not Jesus. He’s the anti-Christ. In the first place he carries a bow. The Lord’s weapon of choice is a sword. The reason he has no arrows is that he won’t use force to make his initial impact on Earth.


gracethrufaith.com...

Also remember the Old Testament prophecies stating the contrast of the true Messiah's appearance and the false Messiah. One example would be the good shepherd vs. the evil shepherd. While Jesus is the actual, good rider on the white horse, the Antichrist will be an impostor on a white horse. The white horse, bow but no arrow, and victor's crown show that this rider will be an impostor who brings false peace and is only a pretender.

Anyone who is interested, here is a full study on the four horsemen. It is from the same website I link to above when dealing with the seven churches:

gracethrufaith.com...



posted on Dec, 17 2008 @ 09:58 AM
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I find it fascinating that even among believers there is dissension and disagreement in the meaning of the Book of Revelations.

Hal Lindsy tried and went down in flames as a religious hack; spreading fear and selling books. "The Late, Great Planet Earth"

Trying to decipher the BOR is a fools errand. IMO.

"No MAN shall know the time or place"



posted on Dec, 17 2008 @ 11:18 AM
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reply to post by whaaa
 


It's not dissension . Give Miriam a chance to get back to me before you say that. Believing the white horseman is Jesus is a very common and understandable error. Most people accept the correction right away once the error is pointed out to them. We're all still learning.

Second, Hal Lindsey most certainly did not go down in flames due to that book. It was just the opposite. He wrote that book in the 70's. After the cold war when things began to settle down, other prophecy scholars actually demanded an apology and recanting from him for his research. He absolutely refused and insisted things like China and Russia would most definitely increase their status. He held true to what the Bible prophesied regardless of backlash or the fact current events at the moment seemed to point in the exact opposite direction of his claims.

He stuck it out and sure enough events are now lining up exactly as he explained them and now his detractors are the ones publicly making the apologies to him. Of course the EEC is now technically the EU and other things like that but he hit the nail on the head in terms of 'European unifications,' Middle East alliances, Russian and China's power, etc. He refused to budge from what the Bible was saying and now he, and the Biblical prophecies, are proving themselves to be correct.


"No MAN shall know the time or place"


That is only in reference to Jesus' return- not the totality of end times signs that Jesus adamantly instructed us to look for.



posted on Dec, 17 2008 @ 07:17 PM
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reply to post by AshleyD
 


AshleyD:

Very good sites. Thank you for listing them. I agree with everything I have read there regarding the Book of Revelations.



Peace and Merry Christmas,
Grandma



posted on Dec, 18 2008 @ 09:08 AM
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reply to post by doctorex
 


Isn't it was ment for the 12 tribes? The 12 apostles.



posted on Dec, 18 2008 @ 01:08 PM
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Ok I would like to go to the the next seals.


bible quote
Revelation 6
The Seals
9When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained. 10They called out in a loud voice, "How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?" 11Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and brothers who were to be killed as they had been was completed.

12I watched as he opened the sixth seal. There was a great earthquake. The sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair, the whole moon turned blood red, 13and the stars in the sky fell to earth, as late figs drop from a fig tree when shaken by a strong wind. 14The sky receded like a scroll, rolling up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place.

15Then the kings of the earth, the princes, the generals, the rich, the mighty, and every slave and every free man hid in caves and among the rocks of the mountains. 16They called to the mountains and the rocks, "Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! 17For the great day of their wrath has come, and who can stand?"


For 9-11
The first question I would like to ask which I think I do know. But I know some here have other thoughts. Who are the souls in the altar. What does it mean that they're under the altar. The actual placement of the souls carouses me. I even almost picture them in some kind of black whole. But it says under the altar. Are they souls or do they have bodies. They where given robs???

For 12-14
I was always carious about the stars falling from the sky. We all the how space works. And I think its pretty much impossible for the stars to fall to the earth????And what does the "The sky receded like a scroll"???

For 15-17
IF there is any thoughts bring them up.

NOTE: on a personal note. I know some believe that the rapture will come. If when people through scripture in revelation says that the rapture is happening lets bring it up. I feel that the rapture is possibility. And I know when some believe it will happen. But if it is going to happen I believe scripture will prove it. I have read the Left behind books. And they give a really good picture on what will happen if it true.

PS: I want us to discuss the scriptures above. When it comes to talking about revelations lets only talk about when it happens and what scripture proves it in revelations. This is not a discussion on rapture.

[edit on 18-12-2008 by slymattb]



posted on Dec, 21 2008 @ 11:03 AM
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hey sly...

i know you moved on with the disussion, does this mean that i shouldnt reply to ashley?



posted on Dec, 21 2008 @ 02:45 PM
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LOL Miriam

Go ahead and reply. I moved ahead to keep the thread going and plus I was carious to what others would say about the scripture.



posted on Dec, 22 2008 @ 04:01 AM
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Originally posted by AshleyD
I strongly disagree that the rider on the white horse is Jesus but is instead, almost certainly, the Antichrist.


i have abit of a problem with antichrist prophecies.

1 john 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time. [22] Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.

1 john 4:[3] And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

2 john 1:[7] For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.

john is the only one who mentions the "antichrist", and he does so specifically to explain that the antichrist is anyone who decieves, or tries to work against jesus and god.

john wrote these letters after revelation (revelations was the first book he wrote), so likely john's opinion wasnt influenced by him seeing the white rider. however that could be possibly because he himself may not have known who the white rider was.

i tend to take antichrist prophecies with a grain of salt. people seem to really want a singular antichrist to come, even though many have been and will be antichrists.


the word used for the white rider's crown is stephanons, signifying governmental power/rulership or victory. However, the word used for Jesus' crown throughout scripture is diadem, signifying exalted, kingly status and royalty. This rider on the white horse is not wearing the Jesus' style of crown.


this doesnt necessarily disqualify jesus as the identity of the rider. the stephanos were also given to those who won races. jesus wore a "stephanos" of thorns (matt 27:29). those who are faithful receive the "crown of life" (james 1:12)

1 peter 5:4 - you will receive the "crown of glory" that will not fade away

rev 2:10 - (jesus talking to the congregation) Be faithful to death, and I will give you the crown of life.

rev 3:11 - I am coming quickly! Hold firmly that which you have, so that no one takes your crown.

rev 14:14 - I looked, and behold, a white cloud; and on the cloud one sitting like a son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

all the above example use "stephanos" instead of "diadem". rev 14:14 definitely refers to jesus, because jesus even called himself "son of man". even the context of 14 doesnt allow for him to be an antichrist.

my point - i think too much emphasis is put on the fact that rev 6:2 is a different crown. jesus did run the race and died faithful to god. he said he "conquered the world" (figuratively) and that we could too if we are faithful. its not that far fetched that he would be described with a stephanos


And in Revelation 13 where the Great Tribulation begins, we’re told that He was given power to make war against the saints and to conquer them. And he was given authority over every tribe, people, language and nation. (Rev. 13:7) Why would Jesus make war with the tribulation saints to conquer them? Like I said, while he fools people into thinking he’s the Christ, he’s really the anti-Christ.


ok, first thing, he is saying that jesus cant be the rider because he has a different crown, but then he somehow connects the rider to the beast, but ignores the fact that the beast is also wearing diadems. im not sure exactly how he is making that connection.

second. the beast of 13 is not a person.

if you cross-reference revelations with other books of the bible, you can see were the symbolism comes from.

rev 13 can be cross referenced with daniel 7. daniel describes 4 "beasts" who ascend from the "sea". verse 17 says that the beasts were "kings". some commentaries point out that its not just an individual king, but the kingdom itself.

rev 13 is describing a beast that looks like a bunch of beasts put together. connecting the worlds governments with the white horse rider doesnt quite connect in my mind.


Also, the weapon Jesus is always associated with is the sword but this white horseman is depicted as carrying a bow with no arrows. This signifies the fact he will arrive on the scene claiming to be peaceful yet he will be anything but.


it doesnt actually say that he doesnt have arrows does it? it just neglects to mention them. the scripture does say that he goes conquering. i know i wouldnt conquer much with a bow and no arrows. i actually dont fully understand how the author of the site you quoted comes to the conclusion that there are no arrows.

as for the why of a bow and no sword? well, my guess would be the type of interaction this conquerer has with his prey. its from afar. if this does occur in the past, then it makes sense that he would have work to do before the final war of armageddon. i speak of the preaching work. in this respect too, he is "conquering" the world in that right hearted people find the truth and are able to "conquer the world" themselves. he of course is doing this while still permitting the world rulers to have their day. (dan 7:25-28)


Also remember the Old Testament prophecies stating the contrast of the true Messiah's appearance and the false Messiah. One example would be the good shepherd vs. the evil shepherd. While Jesus is the actual, good rider on the white horse, the Antichrist will be an impostor on a white horse. The white horse, bow but no arrow, and victor's crown show that this rider will be an impostor who brings false peace and is only a pretender.


actually he talks about many false prophets (plural). matt 7:15; 24:11,24 mark 13:22

however, there is another reason that i dont believe that the rider is the antichrist.

if you look at the 4 riders, they are symbolic of events not people. war is not a person, but rather something that would happen during his ride. etc etc

the first horseman i think represents jesus, but in a way that its telling us what he's going to do. does that make sense?

if you look at matt 24, jesus decribes his "parousia" or presence (the chapter latter talks about his coming). he lists things like wars and catastrophes. but look at verse 14. in the middle of all this gloom and doom, the one positive thing is that the preaching work will be finished.

i think that the ride of the white horse represents that "conquering". jesus is not only supervising the preaching work (28:19 is the commandment, verse 20 he says "i am with you until the end of the days"), but he is also conquering as he is reaping the harvest (rev14) of holy ones, and preparing for armageddon. conquering in that satan, no matter how hard he tries, cannot stop jesus.



posted on Dec, 22 2008 @ 11:59 AM
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reply to post by miriam0566
 


Very true. But don't forget the Bible mentions two separate things: The spirit of Antichrist and the actual 'Man of lawlessness' [The AC]. There most definitely is a continual AC spirit that is prevalent in all generations then it mentions a specific person that will embody that spirit.




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