Mass confusion of Citizenship Rules: Obama is Legit

Any child born to a U.S. CITIZEN is a U.S. CITIZEN.

Also, a person who is a citizen from birth cannot be denaturalized (though denaturalization rarely ever occurs).

(source www.visalaw.com...)

So even if Ann Dunham relinquished Baracks Citizenship... SHE COULDN'T.
Once a citizen Always a citizen.

In 1940, Congress passed a law making illegitimate children born abroad to US citizen women citizens if the mother had resided in the US. However, under this law, if the child was legitimated by the foreign national father before his or her eighteenth birthday, the child would not be considered a citizen.
In 1998, the Supreme Court issued an opinion upholding the requirement that a child born out of wedlock to a US citizen woman be legitimated before his or her eighteenth birthday.
The decision was reaffirmed in the 2001 US Supreme Court decision Nguyen v. INS which held that differing requirements for out-of-wedlock children of US citizen men versus US citizen women are constitutions.

So... The only way OBAMA IS NOT a citizen... Is IF HE FILED FOR KENYAN CITIZENSHIP Before HIS 18th BIRTHDAY.

That being the Case... Barry Obama being born to an American momma and spending time before his 18th birthday as a U.S. Citizen; MAKES HIM a legal citizen.

I supported Obama in the Race. I supported Ron Paul in the Primaries. I consider myself a skeptic, and I spend a LOT of time on this site. I'm involved HEAVILY in politics in my state, and if you asked a few people in upper levels of my city, they could tell you a little bit about me.
I'm not a status quo guy. I'm a buck the system guy. I call it like I see it, but I have a calm and cool demeanor about it. I see the same in Obama.

I've vetted him for myself. I vetted John McCain for myself (and if the McCain we all knew and loved >2000 would have gotten my vote hands down if he hadn't sold his soul to the GOP). I decided on Obama, and I am happy with that decision.

I highly doubt all of these folks who are so desperate to undermine Obama's presidency (even before he's taken any oath of office) took the time to research Barack Obama, OR took the time to research how citizenship works in the U.S. It doesn't Matter whether he was born in Honolulu, or the Himalayas... If his Mother was a citizen, and he spent ANY of his time from birth to 18 in the US, he had a chance to, and DID declare his citizenship.

Those of you looking for a reason to hate this man, truly puzzle me.

I didn't vote for Bush, but I did give him a chance(the first time around). I even supported the war on Iraq at first... Until I realized I was following the herd. I pulled of the rose coloured glasses and saw no connection between Iraq and 9-11. I saw Afghanistan forgotten, and Bin Laden slipping across Mountainous borders. Only then did I realize Bush was a failure (in my opinion).

ladies and Gentlemen... Let us not be hasty to judge, especially based on the ugly sport known as the political season. Everything you heard negative in this election has been cast aside. It always is when everything's said and done, the final ballot counted and a winner declared. Can we not hold the same standard as our politicians? can we not stop bickering until something happens to bicker about?

*snip*

====
Mod Edit: No political baiting, please
The End of Political Baiting and Sniping on ATS







[edit on 11/30/2008 by Badge01]

good thread .
i did not vote for obama but i do like when people put time into the threads that they post.

I think you are confusing citizen with natural born citizen. The United States Constitution requires that Presidents (and Vice Presidents) of the United States be natural-born citizens of the United States.

reply to post by coven


While I can applaud your diligence in looking up the law, your application of it in the Obama case does not apply here. The question before the Supreme Court, yes, has to do with his citizenship, but more importantly, his birth certificate. Because the established law at the time of his birth, 1961 had its applications and restrictions, the changes later in the law, as you have quoted, do not "grandfather" 1961 law into it.

Therefore, even with some court cases tried on a similar matter, it is not the matter before the court under consideration. I will say that your cites may indeed be brought up in the conference discussion, but I highly doubt the justices will consider them as an issue in this case.

We are all waiting to see what transpires.

reply to post by Evisscerator


Agreed. It's not JUST his birth certificate that is in question, but a lot of other documents as well, either counterfeit or missing.

It makes you wonder, though...if Obama is found to not be qualified and has to relinquish his spot as President, provided that by some miracle mass chaos does not ensue, how will the President be chosen? Will there be a reelection? What are the rules about that?

It's not JUST his birth certificate that is in question, but a lot of other documents as well, either counterfeit or missing.

such as? source?(other than a site owned and operated by swiftboaters, inc.)

citizen, and born within the states citizen = 2 different things.

example. Arnold Schwarzenegger = citizen and Governor of CA --CAN NOT become president as he was not born on American soil, to American parents, so he can not be President. The Constitution is pretty clear in that is does not allow for anyone born outside the USA to be allowed to be commander in chief of the USA.

NO offense, this is a great thread, great post... Its good someone is talking about all this...

reply to post by coven




The point is he wasn't born here to begin with. He was born in Kenya, had a birth certificate filed there, he was then transported to Hawaii and a certificate of live birth was filed there, you do not have to be born in the state of Hawaii to file that certificate.... the LONG form Hawaii version of the birth certificate will reveal this.

The supposed birth announcement in the Hawaii Advertiser was also filed after the birth in kenya, following the registration in Hawaii.

Obamas mom was not allowed to travel preggers on a plane, this is why obama was born kenyan AND IS NOT A NATURAL BORN.


www.colony14.net...

You have inadvertantly proven your own point. You have just realized you were actually one of the mass confused. You have just been enlightened.

Originally posted by coven
So even if Ann Dunham relinquished Baracks Citizenship... SHE COULDN'T.
Once a citizen Always a citizen.

You are correct that his mother couldn't have relinquished his citizenship, but you are incorrect when you say a citizen always a citizen.

There are numerous actions you can take that can result in lose of citizenship.

Section 349 of the Immigration and Nationality Act (8 U.S.C. 1481), as amended, states that U.S. citizens are subject to loss of citizenship if they perform certain specified acts voluntarily and with the intention to relinquish U.S. citizenship. Briefly stated, these acts include:

1. obtaining naturalization in a foreign state (Sec. 349 (a) (1) INA);
   
2. taking an oath, affirmation or other formal declaration to a foreign state or its political subdivisions (Sec. 349 (a) (2) INA);
   
3. entering or serving in the armed forces of a foreign state engaged in hostilities against the U.S. or serving as a commissioned or non-commissioned officer in the armed forces of a foreign state (Sec. 349 (a) (3) INA);
   
4. accepting employment with a foreign government if (a) one has the nationality of that foreign state or (b) an oath or declaration of allegiance is required in accepting the position (Sec. 349 (a) (4) INA);
   
5. formally renouncing U.S. citizenship before a U.S. diplomatic or consular officer outside the United States (sec. 349 (a) (5) INA);
   
6. formally renouncing U.S. citizenship within the U.S. (but only under strict, narrow statutory conditions) (Sec. 349 (a) (6) INA);
   
7. conviction for an act of treason (Sec. 349 (a) (7) INA). (source)

Section 349(a) (1) particularly applies to Obama's alleged Indonesian nationality question, as it states in full:

obtaining naturalization in a foreign state upon his own application or upon an application filed by a duly authorized agent, after having attained the age of eighteen years

Obama never lost his US citizenship because he didn't relinquish his nationality (nor did anything to lose it), and he wasn't even 18+ years old when he allegedly had Indonesian nationality.

Even though, apparently at the time, Indonesia didn't allow dual citizenship, US law did. While in the eyes of Indonesian law Obama might've only been Indonesian, in the eyes of US law Obama could have never lost his US citizenship at that particular time, and especially through the actions of his mother or stepfather.

So... The only way OBAMA IS NOT a citizen... Is IF HE FILED FOR KENYAN CITIZENSHIP Before HIS 18th BIRTHDAY.

This is not true either. US law allows you to have dual citizenship. Even if Obama had applied to Kenyan citizenship, that simple fact wouldn't void his US citizenship.

Dual nationality can also occur when a person is naturalized in a foreign state without intending to relinquish U.S. nationality and is thereafter found not to have lost U.S. citizenship: the individual consequently may possess dual nationality. (source)

edit: emphasis added.



[edit on 30-11-2008 by danx]

It doesn't matter, the requirements for being President are that you are a citizen born in U.S. territory.

reply to post by avingard


Hrmmm... Well I guess that rules out McCain as well.


Otherwise... I like where this is going.

Does anyone have a source for the law saying the pres has to be born on U.S. land?

I could have sworn the president had to be a natural born citizen (which is what the first quotation is about... Natural citizenship comes from the mother, unless married, until the age of 18...)

Also Danx, Thanks for the extensive quoting of the laws... I kinda half butted this as it was a reply to this thread www.abovetopsecret.com..., so kudos and stars for finding further sourcing!!!



[edit on 11/30/2008 by coven]

I supported Obama in the Race. I supported Ron Paul in the Primaries.

Funniest thing I ever read.

Originally posted by coven
Hrmmm... Well I guess that rules out McCain as well.

I believe this too, that McCain is not a "natural born" citizen

Does anyone have a source for the law saying the pres has to be born on U.S. land?

There's no law saying the President has to be born on US land specifically. Article II Section I Clause 5 of the US Constitution states that:

No person except a natural born Citizen, or a Citizen of the United States, at the time of the Adoption of this Constitution, shall be eligible to the Office of President; neither shall any Person be eligible to that Office who shall not have attained to the Age of thirty-five Years, and been fourteen Years a Resident within the United States.

Nowhere in the US Constitution (or US law) "natural born" citizen is defined, which is why there's so much controversy on this matter.

And the Supreme Court has never ruled on this matter in particular, either.

It is my personal opinion however, that by "natural born" citizen they meant someone born within the United States.

According to the Foreign Affairs Manual:

“United States” means “the continental United States, Alaska, Hawaii, Puerto Rico,
Guam, and the Virgin Islands of the United States” (Section 101(a)(38) INA).

edit:
Section 101(a)(38) of the INA has been apparently amended since then.

(38) The term "United States", except as otherwise specifically herein provided, when used in a geographical sense, means the continental United States, Alaska, Hawaii, Puerto Rico, Guam, the Virgin Islands of the United States, and the Commonwealth of the Northern Mariana Islands.

[edit on 30-11-2008 by danx]

There is also the issue that the mother be at least eighteen years of age and living in the U.S.and at least four years."Mommy" dearest wasn't of leagle age.So she wasn't able one way or the other a factor in giving him status as a U.S. citizen ship.

Originally posted by Evisscerator
reply to post by coven

While I can applaud your diligence in looking up the law, your application of it in the Obama case does not apply here. The question before the Supreme Court, yes, has to do with his citizenship, but more importantly, his birth certificate. Because the established law at the time of his birth, 1961 had its applications and restrictions, the changes later in the law, as you have quoted, do not "grandfather" 1961 law into it.

You need to do a bit more studying. The change Coven referred to was thoroughly grandfathered in. There is absolutely no doubt that Obama was born an American citizen.

Justia> Law> US Law> US Code> TITLE 8 — ALIENS AND NATIONALITY>
CHAPTER 12 — IMMIGRATION AND NATIONALITY>
SUBCHAPTER III — NATIONALITY AND NATURALIZATION>
PART I — NATIONALITY AT BIRTH AND COLLECTIVE NATURALIZATION> § 1409. —
Children born out of wedlock.

- (c) Notwithstanding the provision of subsection (a) of this section, a person born, after December 23, 1952, outside the United States and out of wedlock shall be held to have acquired at birth the nationality status of his mother, if the mother had the nationality of the United States at the time of such person's birth, and if the mother had previously been physically present in the United States or one of its outlying possessions for a continuous period of one year.

I've always been under the impression that "natural-born citizen" just means that you're automatically a citizen when you're born. IE your parents are citizens, or you're born on US soil. If either of his parents are American then I don't see how there is any debate about it.

correction;mother only has to be of leagle age regardless of where she resides and has to have at least lived in the U.S. at least four years.I don't think I made myself clear and wanted to correct my last post. I would also like to add that that I am concerned that he has erased,blocked and done everything possible to hide who he is.So who is our presadent elect?

reply to post by coven


There are two issues here: If a person was born in Hawaii, then there is no doubt he is a U.S. citizen. Generally speaking, if a person/child was born outside of the United States - say in Kenya for the sake of argument -his American father or American mother could only transmit his/her US citizenship to that child if he/she resided in the United States for ten years, five years of which were after the age of fourteen years. In other words, the child's mother or father would have to be 19 years of age at the time of birth of that child and has resided continously within the geographical limits of the United States for at least ten years prior to the birth of his/her child - before that child could could acquire the US citizenhip of his mother/father. I don't know how old Ms. Dunham was when she gave birth to his son if in fact his son was born in a foreign country. What I know is Obama was born in Hawaii and therefore a U.S. citizen - unless proven otherwise. The US Nationality Act of 1940 and 1952 clearly defines the citizenship of children born abroad to American parents.