So I have been thinking, and I am sure I am not the first to think this.. but..

If God created all, including the Devil and Demons (demons by proxy) and they are what cause or at least tempt (assist) humans to sin and sin is what condemns humans to being tortured in hell (or at least being punished in some way)... well. WTF? Why does he allow them to exist? He knew about the bullspit Lucifer would pull when he created him, but he did it anyway. What purpose do they serve other than helping humans to condemn themselves? I honestly dont understand how this can be if God is all loving and powerful. Seems like we are being set up for failure by a God who created the Earth knowing FULL WELL BEFORE he created it that he would destroy most all of humanity not once but TWICE and condemn most all of humanity to hell. Doesn't seem like a nice thing to do.

While we are on the subject if we are Gods children, why the hell do we go to Hell for stealing, raping, murdering, having sex for fun, eating # we shouldn't, and just generally being ass holes while ALL of his other creations (see most living beings other than humans) act in this manner by design nearly from birth and they get off with no problem. We are getting the donkey dick end of this deal.



[edit on 29-11-2008 by shug7272]

Instead of thinking about this, you could simply have read this thread:

www.abovetopsecret.com...

In the very first place, what you learned in church about the bible is wrong. If you didn't learn anything in church or you simply swallowed the street version of the bible, it is more than likely also wrong.

There are two correct ways to read the bible. One is from the philosophical perspective. I personally see little point in this but it at least keeps you from the sorts of connundrums in which you now find yourself. The second and infinitely best way is to read it with your heart and mind wide open as a creature of love. The problem there is that only the rarest person has the capacity anymore. The crap the churches have spun around the bible and around belief in general have rendered both at best fanciful.

When you read it, don't look for it to stand up to rigorous logical analysis. Humans don't have that capacity anyway though we fool ourselves that we do. Check your ego at the door. Read only the message in the words. That's all it's about. Take it out of these three dimensions when you want to find truth.

When you read it and other religious texts - yes, you must do so with that same open heart and mind - you will get closer to the truth. They are all the products of the one unified message from our creator.

Let me give you one hint now. God isn't who you think he is.

I was told once, that jesus said eventually everyone gets out of hell but its supposed to be kept secret.

And CosmicEgg what gives you the right to determine the correct way to read the bible i can read the damn thing upside down, and if thats right for me then its the correct way to read the bible.

[edit on 30-11-2008 by WisdomInChains]

Originally posted by shug7272
If God created all, including the Devil and Demons (demons by proxy) and they are what cause or at least tempt (assist) humans to sin and sin is what condemns humans to being tortured in hell (or at least being punished in some way)... well. WTF? Why does he allow them to exist? He knew about the bullspit Lucifer would pull when he created him, but he did it anyway. What purpose do they serve other than helping humans to condemn themselves? I honestly dont understand how this can be if God is all loving and powerful. Seems like we are being set up for failure by a God who created the Earth knowing FULL WELL BEFORE he created it that he would destroy most all of humanity not once but TWICE and condemn most all of humanity to hell. Doesn't seem like a nice thing to do.

While we are on the subject if we are Gods children, why the hell do we go to Hell for stealing, raping, murdering, having sex for fun, eating # we shouldn't, and just generally being ass holes while ALL of his other creations (see most living beings other than humans) act in this manner by design nearly from birth and they get off with no problem. We are getting the donkey dick end of this deal.



[edit on 29-11-2008 by shug7272]

i agreee totally with what you have said and any one who tells me that there is some important message there in this holy book or any other holy book- i do not accept that i have to go through 99% stuff that i disagree with just for the 1% of philosophical truths there may be in it

give me the clip notes version andspare me the crap please

well i don't want to give the impression that i support christianity in any sort of meaningfull way but i do remember a mysterious passage from revelation.

there was st john in heaven being shown the apocolypse. at some point before the end there was the "voice of seven thunders". he was forbidden to write down what that voice said.

to me, it seemed it could be some sort of "forgive all" kinda clause where god didn't really intend on going through with all of this nonsense.

but seriously, if you're going to get philosophical about christianity then you're in for a serious head trip. you might as well wrap your mind around an electric fence.

here are some rules of thumb to go by.

if you've heard about it, it's either

a. watered down
b. old news
c. a complete waste of time

take an interest in these things but don't take it too seriously. whenever you run across problems like these imagine what you would sound like trying to explain your thoughts to a friend. that'll make you realize how goofy it all is. whenever i hear "the next best thing" as far as this website goes all i have to do is tell my wife and she looks at me like i'm retarded and then i remember, oh yeah, i don't know jack

For one thing hell is not a literal place. And sin is mostly a warning that if we do it, it could be bad for us. We can do anything we want. But sometimes it's better for us if we don't. Repercussions ya' know.

This is where the rest of the story should come in. I don't know what happened, but somehow our souls that are eternal have to be tested. Was this because of something we may have done before we were born??? God said He knew us even before we were placed in the womb!

Who knows, but it only makes sense in the context of something we have to prove to God...are we trustworthy to live with Him eternally, or at some point would we turn against Him like Lucifer did.

That is the reason He says not to worry about things we can't understand,...only to know the way to escape the second death of eternal separation from Him.

The ant can't say to the human I will resist you, because humans are far superior and hold the life of the ant in hand.

I think God will eventually tell us just why all must be tested, and why many will fail the test, but for now, He has provided a way through His Son to know what this life is about and to prove our worthiness to live eternally with Him.

Why am I bothering to post this...because I have experienced not only His love, but His awesome power firsthand. It was like the fantasy magic you see in the movies about wizards, only it happened in real life and changed my life...and I know it was God who answered because the prayer for intervention was directed to the Heavenly Father.

I do beg your pardon. I hadn't realized that you were clearly captain of your school debating team. Obviously, you've dedicated your life to the practice of critical thinking as well.

Perhaps you could read the book right-side up this time. You'll get more out of it. Maybe you might even get *something* out of it.

TH3ON3, have you read any little bit of the linked thread? There's no point with continued speculation if you aren't willing to pursue further information to supercede the erroneous knowledge which is causing your confusion.

But then again, your ant analogy there speaks volumes. You won't get it anyway.



[edit on 30/11/2008 by CosmicEgg]

The above edit seems to have disappeared into the ether. The first half of the above is directed to Wisdominchains (free yourself!).

reply to post by TH3ON3


Our souls are not eternal. Why would God say that the soul that sins shall surely die, if our souls were eternal?

And can you tell me where to find "God said He knew us even before we were placed in the womb!"?

Of course our souls are eternal. A soul is energy. We all surely know that energy can be neither created nor destroyed, by us anyway. Our bodies are mortal, not our souls.

I say if you don't feel any remorse for stealing, having unlimited sex for fun, etc.. then keep at it. That is between you and your conscience. I personally have something on my heart that when I didn't believe in G-d still let me know the difference btw right and wrong. Had nothing to do with religion, but had everything to do with ethics. All the things you mentioned DO bring turmoil to mankind and that is all G-d tried to get across. It was laws based on human kind. Of course, then you had the false Messiah (aka Jesus) come in and screw everything up.. now ppl feel that it is their RIGHT to tell you how to live and that was never G-d's intent. It was supposed to be strictly btw you and him. The punishment? Death, which is hell, although not to be mistaken for the picture of hell that we have been taught through Christianity. Hell is simply a returning to the dust of the earth... nothing to fear. So live it up if you don't feel the pull to do what's right by your fellow man.

Originally posted by shug7272
If God created all, including the Devil and Demons (demons by proxy) and they are what cause or at least tempt (assist) humans to sin and sin is what condemns humans to being tortured in hell (or at least being punished in some way)... well. WTF?

In order that YOU might have a free will choice to choose, others too are granted free will. Free willed creatures have the choice to choose to follow the will of Our Father. However free will would be an illusion if creatures didn't have the will to choose.

When a creature makes bad choices, such as the devil and demons, how is it God should have to take the blame? Would you rather have no choice?

Not very long from now it will be understood by all how the evils of one group benifit those WILLING to make GOOD choices to do the father's will.

Did you ever notice that when you do something bad to someone else, it's not that you did something wrong that god doesn't like, but rather a sin AGAINST god?

Did you ever wonder why they say the body is the temple of god?

Isn't it odd that in 1 place in the bible it mentions god as "I AM", and what makes us conscious beings it the feeling of I AM? I think, therefore I AM.

Why is it that science has to ignore consciousness in it's theories? Is it because it doesn't understand free will, only action and reaction?

Why is it impossible for a computer to generate a truly random number?

Why is it we can not understand hot without understanding cold? Doesn't that kind of answer your question?

Originally posted by WisdomInChains
I was told once, that jesus said eventually everyone gets out of hell but its supposed to be kept secret.
[edit on 30-11-2008 by WisdomInChains]

Really, that makes a little sense.
Everyone gets a chance.
Some don't want a chance, they really don't want a chance, they actually want the badness.
Everything ends up, where it belongs.
In an imperfect way.

reply to post by CosmicEgg


Explain then "The soul that sins shall surely die". That shows that the soul is not immortal.

reply to post by Blueracer


That is the second death. Souls that don't make it do are not punished for ever and a day, they are distroyed. Hell is a myth mistakenly created up out of understandings of hades. Hades is the "underworld" that such nonassending souls get stored in before being released to try again. However upon a judgement of the ages, all souls are judged. All souls are released and those that are good go into the barn while those that are bad go into the fire.

Originally posted by CosmicEgg
Of course our souls are eternal. A soul is energy. We all surely know that energy can be neither created nor destroyed, by us anyway. Our bodies are mortal, not our souls.

actually the soul, personality, is a lease hold upon a grouping of energy frequencies. The soul is not "a energy" but a collection of energies. Without rights to lease personality, granted and taken away by God, the soul's energies are dispersed and the personality of the soul, or the soul, dies.

Huh? What the heck kind of bureaucracy do you think is going on?

You know, one thing I've realized in my little ol' life is that the more complicated a thing is, the more wrong it is. That is to say, a thing has to be honest to be true. Simple, honest, elegant.

If your world is otherwise, perhaps you should hop off that train and hop on a gentler, kinder, easier one. You still have to wait your turn for the loo though. lol

God is omnipresent (in ALL things that exist, even the concept of "to not exist")... the WHOLE

God is also omniexistent (cannot be created or destroyed... simply is because anything other than that cannot be)... without beginning or end... infinite...

God IS and ISN'T omnipotent... there is no freewill there... 2+2 will always equal 4 and not even God can change that... nor can God choose that to be so in the first place... BUT because part of God is the fact that 2+2=4, no one else can change it either... truly there is no freewill in its purest sense of the concept (other than the fact that it does exist as a comprehensible concept alone)...

Hope that helps!