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OK, so UFO's are REAL..now what?

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posted on Dec, 3 2008 @ 04:20 PM
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Originally posted by Badge01
As far as we know, paranormal events or experiences seem to resist any attempt to demonstrate it for scientific examination. Sure there are photographs and radar traces, but all of them are blurry, indistinct, equivocal, subject to mis-interpretation or variable interpretation (depending on the experience or lack of same of the one inspecting the event).


Ah, another point of the desire to be acknowledged, focused on, etc. If it gave you what you wanted, you'd know it. It wants to be pursued. Not caught. Caught means it's game over. Pursued means the game can go on as long as it chooses.

If it presented as a UFO/alien all the time, you might have a notion of what youre dealing with.



posted on Dec, 3 2008 @ 04:26 PM
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reply to post by Badge01
 


well, I'm no physicist :-)

so, all I can do is guess at things I experience or hear about

I just wonder if what is known is exactly that - what is known

if we consider the possibility of extra bend-y space and time - or auxiliary dimensions - or even conditions we haven't thought about yet because they're just too far fetched to even imagine - maybe it's a matter of things lining up at the same place or time - or under certain so far unobservable conditions - and then figuring out how to work it

and that place or condition is where all the ghosts and goblins, angels, demons and UFOs have been hiding out



posted on Dec, 4 2008 @ 12:53 AM
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Originally posted by Spiramirabilis


- maybe it's a matter of things lining up at the same place or time - or under certain so far unobservable conditions - and then figuring out how to work it

and that place or condition is where all the ghosts and goblins, angels, demons and UFOs have been hiding out




Hi, Spiramirabilis... I think this is a great place to start. I think the operative word here is "condition" or set of "circumstances". When you think of repeatable phenomenon and how to capture it, the first thing that comes to mind is UFO HOT SPOT. A place where the UFO phenom is witnessed by multiple subjects during seperate but multiple times. A place where the UFO or related phenom may present itself or manifest on a regular or at least on going basis. Are there certain conditions or circumstances in these area's that make it easier for the enigma to manifest? Great questions.



Which leads me to my next point. What else "manifests" or repeats its phenomenon in or on the same location. What would be the first thing that comes to mind? For me it was "haunted" house or place.



As Jeff pointed out there are many cases where the two mesh together ( UFO's and the paranorma l) or happen simultaneously.. adding a degree of "high strangeness" that often leaves the experiencer reeling, questioning their own sanity... and not wanting to mention any of these other strange experiences feeling it will label them (as if there wasn't already a stigma associated with 'encounters') even more a potential "crack pot". My heart goes out to these people, we must come to an understanding if we wish to look at this issue HONESTLY for what it is... They do in FACT seem to be related or at the very least..."cut from the same cloth"..


Think about that. Both phenomenon seem to originate from the same source, have the same degree of mystery, unpredictability and be equally elusive.



posted on Dec, 4 2008 @ 01:24 AM
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I seriously think that they are technologically advanced space tourists on an intergalactic safari. Earth is just one of the most popular destinations. Think about it. If they wanted to interact with us they would have a long long time ago. Why wouldn't they interact us? Because we are just as interesting as ants are to us. I don't think they have any specific agenda aside from sightseeing. We're just lucky that we aren't interesting enough for them to warrant them to do experiments. Or have they?



posted on Dec, 4 2008 @ 10:24 AM
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reply to post by Alter-Ego
 


I see the same thing - hot spots - haunted locations - places where something maybe overlaps or opens up

a few months ago there was in interesting thread about "stuff" in this category - the category being the unknown - and could there be a connection between different unknowns

unfortunately the thread didn't go as far as it could have gone

www.abovetopsecret.com...

it just makes sense to me that no matter what you're observing - it can only be observed when it's observable

I also tend to think that we evolved - each and every living thing - our senses evolved - and then the perception that comes with those senses - and then all the many thoughts, beliefs, conclusions and behavior that comes with perception

and everything that was incorporated into what we are was only perpetuated because it was useful to our existing - and continuing

we didn't develop anything that would recognize - or use - conditions we didn't need

birds see light we can't see, and may be using the earth's magnetic fields to navigate - bats use sonar, elephants communicate over vast distances by using very low frequency sound - it goes on and on

just because we don't perceive it doesn't mean it isn't there

how much of this information was available to us prior to the 20th century?

it seems silly to some to believe in ghosts - lucky for me - I'm not worried about my credibility - that ship sailed far, far away a while ago :-)

there's always a rational way to explain things away - it's so much easier to dismiss it because it seems impossible to prove - for now

so, I understand the skeptics - they aren't wrong - but that doesn't mean they're right

I can't shake the feeling that different "conditions" can exist in the same place at the same time - but still be different places - just as radio waves - for example - exist in the same place at the same time - yet, they really don't

if you look at the color spectrum - there's yellow and there is blue - directly in between is green - but in between green an blue - and yellow and green - are an infinite number of greens

if my explanation seems a little too "kindergarten" I use it only to explain - where does something stop being where it is - and start being somewhere else? Maybe the difference between two places is so close at times that there's some bleed through

we don't know yet - I think we're beginning to suspect

we might know someday - and we'll understand it well enough to understand how we can slip out of one and into another - it'll be common knowledge - it'll be in commercials on TV



posted on Dec, 4 2008 @ 11:53 AM
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Originally posted by Spiramirabilis
I can't shake the feeling that different "conditions" can exist in the same place at the same time - but still be different places


I have that feeling as well sometimes. My old Guitar shop was in a haunted location, exceedingly haunted apparently an intelligent one as "ghosts" have interacted with the owner of the estate quite a lot.

I remember thinking what I would ask if I saw one and could communicate with it. The best I got was "where are you".

That's the question with certain phenomena. Does the "ghost" see what we do. Do they know where they are.

I recall one instance of "Ghost Hunters" on Scifi - where they visited a Hotel that was favored by a UK princess I think, of some sort. She died there. They went to her room and called out "Princess are you here" the evp recorded was one of the clearest I ever heard:

"Hello?" Female, with a decidedly Euro accent.

Later in that same room, Jason said "If you're here Princess you need to let us know."

Again, a clear EVP, and same voice:

"Well of course I'm here...where are you?"

I'd heard other EVPs in the same vein. It occurred to me then that, could it be possible they were not contacting a long dead Princess' ghost, but that they were talking to her through time. Was she standing in her room long ago, heard voices and responded to them? She did sound genuinely perplexed.

Does time exist laterally as a whole, and consciousness moves through it. If so, by focus and intent and possibly the right conditions, can we contact the past for brief seconds?

Now that said, are some UFO's the same thing? Mirages not in space, but in time?

Yeah...let that twist yer head for awhile.

[edit on 4-12-2008 by jritzmann]



posted on Dec, 4 2008 @ 12:25 PM
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reply to post by jritzmann
 




...It occurred to me then that, could it be possible they were not contacting a long dead Princess' ghost, but that they were talking to her through time. Was she standing in her room long ago, heard voices and responded to them? She did sound genuinely perplexed...


..and that she thought she was hearing the voice of a ghost? she's not dead - just someplace else?

yeah - I have thought about it

well, we've succeeded in hijacking Alter Egos thread :-)

would be better applied to his upcoming thread I suppose -

but, if we're trying to answer - what do we think they are? - I do think the answer has something to do with all of this

either that - or we are just imagining things - all of us - everywhere around the world - and throughout history



posted on Dec, 4 2008 @ 12:35 PM
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reply to post by jritzmann
 


I forgot this part:



Does time exist laterally as a whole, and consciousness moves through it...


and this:



Now that said, are some UFO's the same thing? Mirages not in space, but in time?


love it - and if it turns out that time is traversable after all?



posted on Dec, 4 2008 @ 12:49 PM
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Originally posted by ziggystar60
reply to post by aliensarereal
 


Well, I am both a skeptic and a beliver. Many things I consider pure BS, like the Galactic Federation of Light and the chemtrails. But UFOs? There is NO doubt in my mind that they are real, that real sightings and encounters have occured.

My personal theory is that some are aliens, some are secret military technology, and some are timetravellers. Yes, I dare to say it, timetravellers.

So there you have it, my very personal opinion. Interesting thread you have started, thanks!


To me the acceptence of UFO's will only occure when the emotional awareness of their being here sinks it to the population. Anyone can have an "intelectural"acceptance that givin the size of the unversive, it makes perfect sense that life is out there and may be here. But its a major sociological leap our people will experience when they are convinced it's really true! The intelligence community did a whole host of simulations with the intent of finding a way to break it slowly to the masses.

But despite the reality we are being visited, we need to understand motives, with special emphasis on how far can we go in providing unasailable evidence to our people and not have a breakdown in civil/military bodies. I think this is a big reason governments have been so worried about disclosure



posted on Dec, 4 2008 @ 12:57 PM
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Originally posted by Alter-Ego

What do you think UFO's are?


I want to prelude my thought by stating that you have asked for what we THINK they are not what we BELIEVE they are. That out of the way, I think that they are many things.

Yep UFOs are real. It is without a doubt that people see crap they cant identify in the sky all the time. I have fallen prey to this character or biological flaw a few times as well. However, I do not automatically equate an unidentified anything with alien visitation. I can be just as amazed by what humans can accomplish as I could be by what I could imagine an advanced alien species could accomplish. In short, I dont sell humans short, ever.

They are odd atmospheric phenomena, terrestrial test craft (military or commercial), misidentified anything one would see in the air or on the ground(birds, balloons, planes, helos, cars etc. - you know all the normal boring stuff that people hate).

They are some peoples dreams come true and other peoples worst nightmares. They can exciting and can be frightening to some people.

They also could be alien visitations to our planet. Yes it is possible, but until they decide to for whatever reason stop playing this stupid cat and mouse game with humanity (if they are here) and allow themselves to be undeniably proven with irrefutable and generally agreed upon evidence, it is not probable.


A brief explanation of why you believe what you've said


Well, I dont have a lot to say about why I believe what I've said, because like I mentioned I do not base why I think what I do on belief - only personal knowledge and the knowledge of those I judge to be correct and in excess of mine.

To me, belief has a tendancy to allow speculation (wild speculation as well) to muddy the waters per se. To allow fantasy or non verified second hand information to mix with reality to the point where differentiation is difficult for some. It also requires little more than faith to work. Nowhere near enough for me, ever. Not that I dont speculate, I do but I simply do not allow speculation and wishful thinking to become part of the foundations of my conclusions.

And my mind can be changed, completely, if indisputable and tested evidence arises that is convincing enough for me to warrant it. I am very unsure about a number of incidents in our experience. There are simply no provable explanations for them and I can be very happy with that conclusion until something changes it for the good or bad. I wont be swayed to any line of thought just because it is popular or entertaining.

Ha! Me in a nutshell! Funny...



posted on Dec, 4 2008 @ 02:53 PM
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Originally posted by Badge01
I think we need to re-define the phenomenon, even to the point of separating the 'classic UFO' from the 'classic Alien'. I'm not convinced they are related to each other, except in sci-fi.


I agree with this. I have thought for a long time now that UFO's and Aliens were incorrectly rammed together as a result of the early years of UFO interest and what the early mindset of those enthusiasts was. It stuck primarily because of the fuel it got in the 50's and 60's from Hollywood. Here we are 60 years later and there is absolutely nothing but sheer willpower holding the two together. Let them be investigated and wondered about without the hinderance of the other and if, in the long run, some undeniable truth binds them solidly together, so be it.

I have even hoped that someday here at ATS we would progress enough to be able to separate them as a forum topic someday, just to clear the air for each topic so to speak...



posted on Dec, 4 2008 @ 04:26 PM
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Originally posted by Lost_Mind
I have even hoped that someday here at ATS we would progress enough to be able to separate them as a forum topic someday, just to clear the air for each topic so to speak...


I'd continue hoping. We can't seem to get past "Billy Meier is the REAL DEAL!", and "I'm an Alien" or "Stargates are Real!".

Let's face it, if you're critical thinking and you question this subject intently and stand up and say what has to be said...you're in the minority. Most would rather subscribe to fantasy and aggressively defend it then consider the actual data and get into some new thinking.



posted on Dec, 4 2008 @ 05:54 PM
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Originally posted by jritzmann
Most would rather subscribe to fantasy and aggressively defend it then consider the actual data and get into some new thinking.


Speaking of new thinking I really like some of your take on the metaphysical/perception angle. I think its is a fun and productive thought experiment to try and radically grasp the perception of another person like this. Not at the expense of my own but enough to say that I can relate a bit to where they are coming from.

Maybe this kind of "half" awareness or partial perception of this phenomena is bound to our current level on awareness and consiousness, which in turn could also be connected by our current state of evolution to our progressive understanding of quantum physics. Maybe it is more biological than we would ever think. Is that stretch?

I'm not a religious person by a longshot but as a human being (if you are paying enough attention) you cant help but notice that life here has some undeniable pattern to it at times. Maybe there are some rules that are held in place by another type of science we have yet to discover or understand that forces a cadence or pace on which we can become more aware of our universe/selves and how it all works. Is it possible that some of the truly unexplained paranormal/UFO events could be a lingering effect from poking our minds into areas unknown fully?

Everything else in the universe seems to have its rules whether we got them right ATM or not so why would our growth of awareness or conciousnenss be any different? Rules and purpose makes the world go round, eh? Every thing always going forward no matter how hard we have the brakes on in our puny little heads.

OK enough for me. Things are dripping our of my head I dont recognize so that means its time to have a pizza and beers. I love pondering things like this but I am always going to be entrenched in the tangible and the probable. But I keep the head open just in case.



posted on Dec, 4 2008 @ 06:04 PM
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Originally posted by jritzmann


I'd continue hoping. We can't seem to get past "Billy Meier is the REAL DEAL!", and "I'm an Alien" or "Stargates are Real!".

Let's face it, if you're critical thinking and you question this subject intently and stand up and say what has to be said...you're in the minority. Most would rather subscribe to fantasy and aggressively defend it then consider the actual data and get into some new thinking.


This is so true JR. But you cant really blame the "public at large". We have been spoon fed from birth completely conditioned to believe the "Extra-Terrestrial Hypothesis". Why? Is someone trying to reveal something to us, OR are they trying to hide or mask a reality that may be too frightening to try and explain, to the masses?

I grew up watching Star Trek, Star Wars, Battlestar Galactica, Buck Rogers and the 25th Century.. Close Encounters of the Third Kind .. and many more, and that was when I was a child!!!

Today we have awesome, almost completely realistic special effects, gift wrapping "aliens" to us like never before. Independence Day, War of the Worlds, Alien (0-4), Predator, the list literally goes on and on...

It is so easy to believe what our impressionable brains are fed day after day.. year after year. It's called "programming". It is a VERY effective technique and I wonder who or what is behind it all. Answer that question, and we'll be one step closer to the truth.

I will see this study through to the end. This thread will be a beacon in a sea of misinformation and misrepresentation to all those who truly seek the TRUTH and are willing to let go of the conditioned responses to this mystery... to follow this research wherever it leads, regardless of preconceived notions or what 'sounds cool' or what comes in a "neat little package, with a glowing silver bow" ... to explore the "high strangeness" or the things that dont fit a "classification" .. because life isn't simple, its complex and as diverse and wondrous as the universe we live in and the mysteries we ponder..



posted on Dec, 4 2008 @ 06:28 PM
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You know all this talk of grouping Aliens and Ufos is so right, there is a good scientific reason to analyse UFOs and find out what they are.
But if you admit you are interested in UFO's people start talking space alien at you and it all becomes fiction. It is impossible even on this forum just to have a rational conversation without someone bringing "beliefs" in with it. Then when ufologists are cynical/skepical - believers get all upset as if you were attacking their religion!

Can we vote and have sperate sections mods???



posted on Dec, 4 2008 @ 08:04 PM
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UFO's are real. As for Now What? Canadian, American and Mexican Political High ranking peoples can bring out the truth about what they know, and when did they become aware of EBE reality? (Well I'm dreaming a wee-bit there).

Jef knows his stuff and I stand back a bit if he feels and expresses a possible phonyness toward anything pictorial (wow cool word) he may feel needs deeper investigation.



posted on Dec, 4 2008 @ 08:20 PM
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Originally posted by jritzmann

Originally posted by jritzmann

Do any of you know, what is reported by "experiencers" as occurring to them in addition to "abductions"? In other words, what else they experience - barring nosebleeds, marks and such. I'm talking about other experiences. Anyone know? Because it's highly telling. I won't be shocked if no one knows, because it's been buried by most mainstream "researchers" for years.


Since no one has responded to this I'll spill it.

The commonality you won't often hear from the mainstream is that other "paranormal" events do often occur in the lives of lifelong experiencers. It can run from ghosts to other more bizarre events.

Interesting no?


Look at it this way, a more advanced intelligent species might not be a technological construct, it might be a purely energetic phenomenon, a sort of consciousness matrix that interacts directly with the minds of it's peers and possibly of other species. This is angel territory, very advanced creatures that have fused themselves with their environment, which would be the entire universe. This is the "any advanced enough techonology would seem to be magic" quote scenario.

And any species inbetween could be technological and spiritual, much the same way some of us may be now. You may be able to see into and interact with the spiritual plane, but you still need utensils to cook and eat. And possibly to travel in this plane. I don't think there's going to be a distinction between aliens and paranormal either, when we come down to it. I even expect aliens and paranormal to link up with religion and spirituality, into a more cohese whole that will be more in tune with the nature of the universe.

David Icke, and others, are saying we live a holographic reality, where everything is just a physical manifestation of a background conscious energy field. If this scenario is true, and it makes more sense to me than the nihilistic materialisms of atheism, then we are really all just God's dreams.

And in dreams anything is possible.

Btw, Richard Dolan confirms your statement that ufo witnesses are frequently subjects of paranormal activity, on the record. As do a few others, so it's trickleing up. The danger with the spiritual aspect is that, because it is so imaterial, it is open to manipulation and I for one would dislike to see the NWO crowd succeed in making another bs religion out of ufology and any new age spirituality that could come of the contact experience.



posted on Dec, 4 2008 @ 08:35 PM
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reply to post by Alter-Ego
 


Just hang in there.
Disclosure should happen around December 21,2012.
When the truth is told, a lot of people will say "Wow! that sounds
like Star Trek!"
The U.S. Government has already figured out almost all of the
very advanced technology that the aliens use.
When disclosure is made about the truth, we will see incredible
things here on Earth.
Think Back to the Future II November 5, 2015.
The time machine Delorean?
Marty Mcfly. Doc Brown.
We will be able to control the weather.
The aliens can control the weather on their planets. We are just
cheating and using their technology.
We will travel to the asteroid belt out past Mars and mine valuable
metals. Go ahead and laugh but i predict we will be able travel
from Earth to Mars in about 20 minutes.
It's called traveling in nonlinear time.
All you need is a gravity wave sphere. Put your spacecraft in the
sphere. - Spacial Deteriation of Time -



posted on Dec, 4 2008 @ 08:52 PM
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Originally posted by KembaraLangit
I have only read through half of the pages in the thread & I'm already dying to see what outcome this study might bring forth
S & F for a very intriguing & honest effort to move forward in Ufology Alter Ego..

Here's my take on the matter


1) UFO's can't all be Alien nor can it all be simple mis-identification of natural phenomena & secret military projects. There are also quite a bit of cases where the probable ship/aerial vehicle seemed to show a somewhat organic property (i.e. shape shifting)....Thus for me they are, base on what limited facts & data are currently available, a mix of all three possibilities. (I don't know enough about inter-dimensionality to talk about such possibility)

2) I think UFO's are a mix of all 3 possibilities mentioned above, because there have always been cases representative of all three categories, as far as my personal recollection counted
Of course, I can always be wrong...

Is this multi-faceted nature of the UFO phenomenon actually a by product of the human collective perception or consciousness?? I really hope your keen effort will bring us at least closer to answering that



The Roswell crash July 1947 is when we got some really cool
technology from the Grays.
It took us about 40 years figure out what in the world we
were looking at. Imagine handing someone a Blue Ray DVD
in July 1947. What is this thing?
A movie???
It takes time but we finally figured it all out.
We have built our own starships and already flown around the solar system. I think we have shared this very advanced technology
with our closest ally the United Kingdom - British Intel.



posted on Dec, 4 2008 @ 08:58 PM
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reply to post by Lost_Mind
 


I see what you're saying, but I'm afraid I can only offer this:

It could be, at least in my thinking, that our advancement could be a response to the anomaly. You know how the ETH crowd seems to think every advancement we have is related somehow to spaceman technology gleaned from some back office X-Files "deal" with aliens?

Well, to a certain point it might not be far from the mark. Not in the sense of any X-Files scenario, or that we got technology from ETs, but that our understanding and advancement may be in part our natural response to the anomaly. The "alien", or whatever.

The contact experience often if not always involves altered states of consciousness. That "hyper reality" thing I mentioned before. Now, besides the "naturally occurring" (whatever that is) "alien experience", are there other ways to achieve that contact. Such as has been mentioned by McKenna, through '___' or other Tryptamines. That becomes a real weird issue for a lot of people, because it's associated (of course) with "hallucinations". However, '___' produces, at sufficient doses and not piddly ones, a consistent experience throughout all people. I seriously question the whole aspect of what a hallucinogenic experience is. If we perceive it, is it real...on some level. Remember the observer and reality.

As described by McKenna and others: You start by seeing a Mandela-like pattern. Then you are propelled through it, and suddenly find yourself (and see if this seems familiar) in a round, low ceiling room, with indirect lighting. There are "elves" there, and they produce objects from thin air by "singing" and show them to you. Their language is (again familiar) visual. There is the overall sense that our reality is fake...and the '___' experience is ultra-real. Experiencers have much the same outlook with regard to visitation...again, hyper reality.

To hear McKenna and others describe the '___' experience...for me who has never tried any drug (I'm completely chicken sh** when it comes to being out of control of myself...and frankly I don't need a drug to see this stuff), it's hauntingly similar to alien visitation.

So, in past ages when the medicine man, or shaman goes into the depths of a mushroom experience (a close relative of '___') does he gain such insights from these beings...and are they the same intelligence we see in the UFO enigma?

Has humanity responded to that...and we don't even know it.

I know this is deep stuff, but again I see significant connective tissue here between the altered state of consciousness and "alien" experiences and Tryptamine hallucinogens. I wish I had the guts to try it and see just how similar it is. But, I don't like being around "them", and the idea of bringing it on is not something I want to do.

Again, none of this says the experience isn't "real"...we need to define what that even means. It's *more* real then real. But if you could hit a saucer with a rock, would it make a sound.

McKenna tells of being in the Amazon and watching some clouds spilt and form into a saucer. It made the old theramin sound of sci-fi saucer movies as it passed over him. He wondered if the anomaly was more true to form as cloud or machine. But there was a problem: it was the classic Adamski craft. Yes, the faked photo made from the end cap off an old 1937 Hoover vacuum. McKenna knew the photo was faked, so what is a 1937 embellished Hoover end cap roughly 40 ft wide sailing around the amazon as a flying saucer?

Because it manifested to him. For him. It again, as so many times before and since, is self contradictory. Maybe it can't help looking to us as it does. Maybe there's no choice for it. But it gave McKenna a clue...it seemed to say "You know I'm fake..so what am I really?"

It should be noted he wasn't on anything at the time of the sighting. But youre also talking about a man who was intimately familiar with all known hallucinogens by direct experience...he said this matched no experience he ever had (and he'd know).

This is ultimately why when I do a lecture and someone comes up to me and asks, "are they real?", I always respond by saying "that depends on what you mean by real."

Our entire culture may be shaped by the anomaly...not necessarily the "alien" or fairy, or gnome, or ghost...the overall anomaly, and whatever it imparts. This conversation, and our suggestions and ideas about it may all be inspired by that. Who knows.

Again, I'm just free-form thinking here. I'm very interested in all the '___' "spirit molecule" thing...but I've only become aware of it within the past 6 months or so. But, it's interesting.



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