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OK, so UFO's are REAL..now what?

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posted on Dec, 1 2008 @ 11:44 PM
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reply to post by Anti - Government
 


The government does not make disclosures about knowledge that is in the public domain. I have catalogued 6500+ pages of blueprints from the patent office show how to build the flying craft that people see on a regular basis and mistakenly call UFOs. I offer you a free E-book (in MS Word format) explaining how they work, free videos to explain the science of the propulsion system, and even a Q&A page of the most regularly asked questions--please come check it out at ufohowto.com--I invite questions and feedback.
Best regards
Luke



posted on Dec, 2 2008 @ 12:01 AM
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reply to post by lifeform
 


--From a NOVA interview with the late Carl Sagan

NOVA: Could you please comment on the part of the quality of the evidence that is put forward by these so-called "[alien] abduction proponents."

SAGAN: Well, it's almost entirely anecdote. Someone says something happened to them...And, people can say anything. The fact that someone says something doesn't mean it's true. Doesn't mean they're lying, but it doesn't mean it's true.

To be taken seriously, you need physical evidence that can be examined at leisure by skeptical scientists: a scraping of the whole ship, and the discovery that it contains isotopic ratios that aren't present on earth, chemical elements form the so-called island of stability, very heavy elements that don't exist on earth. Or material of absolutely bizarre properties of many sorts—electrical conductivity or ductility. There are many things like that that would instantly give serious credence to an account.

But there's no scrapings, no interior photographs, no filched page from the captain's log book. All there are are stories. There are instances of disturbed soil, but I can disturb soil with a shovel. There are instances of people claiming to flash lights at UFOs and the UFOs flash back. But, pilots of airplanes can also flash back, especially if they think it would be a good joke to play on the UFO enthusiast. So, that does not constitute good evidence.



posted on Dec, 2 2008 @ 12:31 AM
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reply to post by Turiddu
 


im not sure i understand what your point is, i did say people tend not to trust somebody's word for it without that extra proof.

however lack of proof dos'nt prove they are lying and abductions do not take place.

when all you have is witness testimony(which is considered evidence in a court of law and is evidence regardless of wether we trust it or not), then the frequency of the events and comparsions in stories is all you can use to decide if it is something worth taking serious enough to investigate.

so how many people does it take before people say "hmmm, why would that many people all lie and come forward only to recieve mass ridicule unless something is occuring" and how many simular to identical encounters before people asked themselves if it is really resonable to label them all as liars or nutjobs?

lack of proof proves nothing either way is all my point was, it just proves there is no proof that is able to be offered to OTHER people. which dos'nt mean it dos'nt happen or the person who had the experience is lying. thats just simply people jumping to conclusions and assuming they all must be lying etc.







[edit on 2-12-2008 by lifeform]



posted on Dec, 2 2008 @ 07:46 AM
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Wow, I have skimmed back through this thread to try and get an preliminary idea of what kind of ratios we may be looking at. On one hand I am surprised with the initial results, but I understand why the majority of people think the way they do. Very interesting so far, to be sure... as I have stated this thread will remain active until Friday, to give people time to read it over and state their opinions on what UFO's are or represent.

On Friday my partner, Skully er...uhhh CA_Orot and I will be tallying up the results and submitting our findings and conclusions. So I encourage anyone who has not stated their "opinion" to do so by then. Next weekend will kick off PART TWO and that already promises to be exciting. There will be various theory presentations and the debate is sure to be intense, so feel free to join in the fun...


Again I wanted to just take a moment and thank everyone who has taken the time to read or contribute to this study. This is a grassroots project, done on the civilian level... for the people! I don't think that the "powers that be" are going to disclose anything. They may be in the same boat as we my find ourselves, and not know WHAT to call it...not know just HOW to classify it... but at least we will not be sitting back, doing nothing except digesting what we are spoon fed.


The truth is out there..









[edit on 2-12-2008 by Alter-Ego]



posted on Dec, 2 2008 @ 08:33 AM
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I think it is time that we start to understand that life can exist anywhere in any form. That said we are back at square one
.
If aliens exist? Well i think the government would cover it up....



posted on Dec, 2 2008 @ 11:29 AM
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"State what you think they are."

I don't know.

Best guess based on experience and data available? A consciousness that has been around as long if not much longer then we have. They are a manifestation of a something, that doesn't (as we do) depend on physical reality to "exist" in the classic sense. They *can* be real, but they don't have to be.

They do, however depend somewhat on us to manifest themselves as something we can perceive, and that perception is tailored to the individual perceiving it, and current cultural views.

I feel that they are an external force, but not so separated from us. They are as far away as distant galaxies and closer then we dared think, or for that matter, closer then we'd probably be comfortable with.

What are they here for? I don't know. It could be that they're trying to influence our minds to evolve, to suggest ideas, and evoke discussion that will change us.

Scary when we don't even know who they are.

The ETH is a comfortable theory, but it doesn't match the presented phenomena. This has become the common answer, the easiest scenario...however we are clearly not dealing with an easy enigma. This is one far more complex then it's given credit for. However, in the capitalist society, spacemen sell. I have no doubt, that what the public or media calls "top researchers", have been holding out on you. I know this for fact by the way, not hearsay. There is a "paranormal" aspect to the UFO that mainstream researchers won't address, because it becomes unpalatable to the consumer.

It's convoluted enough right? No need to add that high weirdness stuff to it all. The issue is the general public doesn't have an accurate portrayal of the UFO/alien phenomena...and has summarily adopted a theory that doesn't pass the filter of complexity.

Now, you get where we stand today, where the phenomena is shoved into a very earth-bound pedestrian answer and accepted out of hand because dammit...people want answers, right.

Talk to some of the elder researchers worth their salt. They'll tell you after 50 some odd years of study, this ain't about ETs. Few of them will admit it publicly, because they've built a reputation on an ETH platform. A platform of belief, not theory, that has yielded NO answers, NO physical proof, and no progression on answers. But it's yielded plenty of fakes and charlatans.

This phenomena has not become more explicit. It has remained elusive and on the edge of our perceptions. I would suggest that the true "alien" is SO alien it'll will make your jaw hit the floor. It's not to be marginalized.

That high strangeness issue no one addresses, is where at least better questions lay, if not a possibility of answers.

Lets look at one aspect: the shape and "design" of the "craft". Different aren't they? As varied as we are. And I would contend, because we help in some way to manifest them based on expectation and perception derived from current culture mindsets.

We are already being informed that Newtonian physics is in for serious revision. Reality existing based on the observer. We may have more to do with "reality" then we care to know. Everyone is so quick to dismiss the psychological - when perception, experience, and our very concept of reality...is ALL psychological.

So the question ultimately becomes for me, when we say "real", what do we mean. Exactly.

This is to me, where the solution to the UFO issue might be.

[edit on 2-12-2008 by jritzmann]



posted on Dec, 2 2008 @ 01:59 PM
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reply to post by jritzmann
 




WOW.


I have held my personal opinion on this matter up until now. I have heard some really good theories, and some great testimonials, but NEVER and I mean EVER has ANYONE put it into words as eloquently, rationally and as understandable as Jeff just did. I am blown away, and in fact I believe EXACTLY as he does concerning this phenomenon. No one will never know all the answers. This thing is multi-faceted.

I dare say that this will be the first time most readers have heard this honest and true representation of the UFO enigma... and it is vital that they do, so that UFOLOGY can take that next step...and EVOLVE or FOCUS the research where it needs to focused, so we can ascertain WHAT it is all about.


The key word is "manifestation". The high strangeness is a subject connected with this mystery that I would like to focus my "personal" research on, as I believe THAT is where the answer lies to all of this regardless of its popularity. Old school "hardcore" researchers like Vallee' and Hynek both eluded to this hypothesis, but no one wanted to hear it..


Again, at the risk of tainting my own study I have to stand up and applaud jritzmann for his post and his courage and his steadfastness and commitment to the TRUTH. IMHO he has been one of the ONLY, true researchers/experiencer's intrepid enough to tread where few ever dare and stand up and put it on the line. How many of us can say that...


My meager words cannot cover it, but I want to thank you on behalf of those of us not stuck in "stigmas" or "preconceived notions" and truly seek the truth. And for those who have been misled by the MSM and are ready to learn... thank you Jeff.



posted on Dec, 2 2008 @ 02:05 PM
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reply to post by jritzmann
 


The following is my opinion as a member participating in this discussion.

JR, your comments make a lot of sense and parallel my thoughts on the matter (and somewhat Jacque Vallee's).

Somehow, we may be assisting in manifesting something. I don't know that 'craft' are related but there are some definitely highly strange cases involving aerial phenomenon. They're not all distant night time lights or day-time discs. Throughout history the 'craft' seem to be based on what we expect to see.

I always go back to the example of Flatland and the 2-D analogy. To them we are 'beyond mysterious'. Since they don't have 'up' or 'down' we are as Gods to them. We make 'noise' but are invisible. We can enter and leave and affect them but do not appear as we are because 3-D beings can only show up as a 'slice'.

Likewise it's possible we don't know the truth because we can't know. We may lack the faculties to explain this phenomenon in terms we, biological beings who perceive reality through five senses and who are really living a femto-second in the past (we seem to perceive things after they happen - yet, parenthetically, I might add, there's some evidence we do see into what we call the micro-future) might require.

I think we need to re-define the phenomenon, even to the point of separating the 'classic UFO' from the 'classic Alien'. I'm not convinced they are related to each other, except in sci-fi.

$.02

As an ATS Staff Member, I will not moderate in threads such as this where I have participated as a member.



posted on Dec, 2 2008 @ 04:06 PM
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Originally posted by jritzmann
"State what you think they are."

I don't know.

Best guess based on experience and data available? A consciousness that has been around as long if not much longer then we have. They are a manifestation of a something, that doesn't (as we do) depend on physical reality to "exist" in the classic sense. They *can* be real, but they don't have to be.

They do, however depend somewhat on us to manifest themselves as something we can perceive, and that perception is tailored to the individual perceiving it, and current cultural views.


When people from one side of a state report a certain UFO and people from the other side of the state later that day make a report on that same UFO, it does not seem likely that they all could have caused the same manifestation.

When an air force pilot with tens of thousands of hours of logged flight time all of a sudden reports a UFO, is interviewed for hours by the military, and then told to keep quiet about it and he does so, I don't see how your theory would explain this type of case.

When ground radar picks up a solid object and sends a fighter jet to intercept it and the fighter jet gets a visual which agrees with the ground radar, I don't see how your theory would explain this type of case.

The thousands of alien abduction cases, I don't see how your theory would explain those. Abduction cases are as old as the history of UFOs themselves. The descriptions of the insides of the UFOs, of the aliens, where did these abductees get that information? Pure imagination? I don't think so.

Maybe, maybe there's some alien races out there that can appear to be whatever you perceive them to be, but I don't believe that accounts for the other alien races.

[edit on 2-12-2008 by Leto]



posted on Dec, 2 2008 @ 04:43 PM
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Originally posted by Leto
When people from one side of a state report a certain UFO and people from the other side of the state later that day make a report on that same UFO, it does not seem likely that they all could have caused the same manifestation.


It also doesn't seem likely that you'd be able to prove we're talking about an "alien" instance or an advanced craft of our own development or making.


Originally posted by Leto
When an air force pilot with tens of thousands of hours of logged flight time all of a sudden reports a UFO, is interviewed for hours by the military, and then told to keep quiet about it and he does so, I don't see how your theory would explain this type of case.


If it were advanced craft we made and a great weapons delivery system you don't want your enemies knowing about...you can bet you'd be told to keep your mouth shut.


Originally posted by Leto
When ground radar picks up a solid object and sends a fighter jet to intercept it and the fighter jet gets a visual which agrees with the ground radar, I don't see how your theory would explain this type of case.


How exactly do you know who or what manifested that craft be in the here and now? And again, sightings of exotic craft don't equate to "aliens" or this phenomena. It only could be.

You have to realize that there's a confusion of advanced craft...ours and what we see as "them". We have NO idea what our military has and experiments with. We don't need to know. That's their business, to keep us safe and keep our enemies wondering. Your fat tax dollars buy phat weapons. Nuff said. We cannot distinguish because we don't know. Few have been off the charts as far as discernment.


Originally posted by Leto
The thousands of alien abduction cases, I don't see how your theory would explain those. Abduction cases are as old as the history of UFOs themselves. The descriptions of the insides of the UFOs, of the aliens, where did these abductees get that information? Pure imagination? I don't think so.


The accounts are varied and differ, with some aligning major points. However there are highly, highly bizarre instances that you are completely unaware of. I never said pure imagination. I said a manifestation of current cultures expectations. You make it sound, that experiencers report exactly the same experience, and that's simply untrue.

What is true is that the majority of public cases have utilized regression hypnosis which is faulty and potentially dangerous except in specific instances (and none of those are alien interaction). What you see in regression accounts is cultural contamination, and coupled with leading questions and a preconceived notion, you get an abductee.

I'm predominantly interested in experiencer accounts where no regression has ever been used, or sought. None of mine have been, and I certainly don't want to contaminate any of it with fantasy prone hypnosis techniques. Some of them are the strongest memories I have, and I've had shared experiences with others that we both remember just fine.


Originally posted by Leto
Maybe, maybe there's some alien races out there that can appear to be whatever you perceive them to be, but I don't believe that accounts for the other alien races.


Thats just it. There's no real evidence of "other races", past the cultural contamination we've already mentioned. The costume may change, but the enigma does not.

Look at Dorothy Izatt. When she held a good mindset and looked at this with curiosity, she got benevolent beings. When someone suggested to her they were "demons" and she focused on that as a possibility...that she'd been fooled by these demons...thats exactly what she got. She got fearful experiences.

She got exactly what "they" saw in her consciousness.

Think of it as a masquerade, only they don't remove their masks...perhaps the mask is all we can perceive, and that's why they wear them. But we are the makers of the mask.



[edit on 2-12-2008 by jritzmann]



posted on Dec, 2 2008 @ 04:57 PM
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Originally posted by jritzmann

If it were advanced craft we made and a great weapons delivery system you don't want your enemies knowing about...you can bet you'd be told to keep your mouth shut.

[


Air Force pilots have since the 40's reported about UFOs that can instantly reach speeds far higher than anything we have achieved today, and some of their reports were even backed up by ground radar. If those UFOs were really just craft that we made, what happened to them? Why didn't we use them in the Korean war for instance? We sure could have used them then.



posted on Dec, 2 2008 @ 05:16 PM
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Originally posted by Leto
Air Force pilots have since the 40's reported about UFOs that can instantly reach speeds far higher than anything we have achieved today, and some of their reports were even backed up by ground radar. If those UFOs were really just craft that we made, what happened to them? Why didn't we use them in the Korean war for instance? We sure could have used them then.


How is it you know they did not? You don't, we don't. Again, you don't know what speeds we have achieved. You know what the public knows. That sure ain't all there is.

By now these craft may be replaced with even more insanely ridiculous machines.

And BTW, don't forget natural phenomena, and celestial events into your sightings.

There's much more then what I outlined that might help you. I'll try and make some time tonight to explain some things.



posted on Dec, 2 2008 @ 05:49 PM
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reply to post by Leto
 


I think you'd have to take another, closer link at reports that claim instant accelerations.

I'm not disputing you, but a lot of times when you go back to those original reports and look carefully you find problems.

Remember there were some very fast planes flying in the 50s. The F-104 flew from 1958 until 1967. That's the official release date. Prototypes may have been flying prior to that.

The problem with this field is there is a huge amount of contamination from so many sources, it's a wonder anyone can get good information.

Just a thought.



posted on Dec, 2 2008 @ 06:22 PM
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12.15am in Ireland. If any Irish on here with decent telescope can yee check bight light in east-south. I only have binoculars. Have watched skies all my life and never seen light like this. Can clearly see green , blue, purple , red, can't focus on object. Freaky thing is it seems to be faintly lighting up sky around it too.



posted on Dec, 2 2008 @ 07:00 PM
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Originally posted by jritzmann
The ETH is a comfortable theory, but it doesn't match the presented phenomena. This has become the common answer, the easiest scenario...however we are clearly not dealing with an easy enigma. This is one far more complex then it's given credit for.


After having an interest in this field for decades now, this is one of the hardest things to get across to people. It's not all about Roswell or lights in the sky or Travis Walton. When you dig deep into the files, it becomes about people having really strange and weird things happen to them that just defy rational explanation to the point where they're essentially incomprehensible.

It gets tiring having to keep re-educating people who are new to the field that what they're getting on the surface is really only about 10 percent of what's really going on.



posted on Dec, 2 2008 @ 07:48 PM
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Extraterrestrials are the reasonable answer.

There are unidentified objects flying in are sky and there's no natural explanation as defined by some skeptics.

To me, extraterrestrials would be a natural explanation because they would have evolved like we did.

All you have to do is look at our technology 100 years ago and then imagine a race thousands or millions of years ahead of us in evolution.

We can reason about these things without having a ship to examine.

Theoretical physicist reason about things like Parallel universes without having a paralel universe in front of them.

Within ufology, you have eyewitness accounts, abduction cases, trace evidence, pictures, videos and more so there's more than enough evidence to draw a conclusion based on logic.

Many of these things are not unidentified, it's just the skeptic doesn't like the way the eyewitness is describing them.

How is this logical?

If you investigate a sighting and at the end you can't find a natural explanation that fits your belief then it's put in the unexpained column because you can't accept the way the eyewitness explained what they saw.



posted on Dec, 2 2008 @ 09:34 PM
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Originally posted by Dodecahedral
Theoretical physicist reason about things like Parallel universes without having a parallel universe in front of them.

Within ufology, you have eyewitness accounts, abduction cases, trace evidence, pictures, videos and more so there's more than enough evidence to draw a conclusion based on logic.


Sorry, but none of the stuff you mention has ever actually been proven to be the result of or related to extraterrestrials. Nobody has an "alien" in front of them any more than they have a parallel universe.

Ask Budd Hopkins, perhaps the leading abduction case researcher around, what he thinks about the notion that these happenings are related to your average extraterrestrials. Even he admits these days that there's probably something happening that goes way beyond ET, because the data just doesn't fit.

I would suggest to anyone who has a real interest in thinking beyond the ET box to review a couple different things. One is the trilogy of books written by Jacques Vallee in the 1980's, Dimensions, Confrontations, and Revelations. These provide a basic working understanding of how the UFO field limits itself by narrowing the focus of thinking to UFOs as alien spacecraft. You may not agree with what he has to say, but in the interest of learning about the field, they should at least be considered.

Surprisingly, another thing you might want to look into are the talks given by Philip Corso, Jr., the son of the guy who wrote "The Day After Roswell." There are online videos of these talks you can find on YouTube and here:

www.dailymotion.com...

Working from his father's unpublished notes, he offers an interpretation of the Roswell event and the phenomenon in general that is significantly different that what is covered in his father's book. If Corso, Sr., was anything, he was a Company man, and would never have released his book without it being heavily edited per the instructions of the intelligence community. And if Corso Jr's., interpretation of the notes is even somewhat correct, there was quite a bit of editing done.

I don't think Corso Jr., gets everything right, but a lot of what he says is intriguing, and at least offers potential for fresh thought about the subject. Particularly interesting to me are the connections he makes between time and consciousness as they relate to UFOs and space travel. His presentation is a little scattered, but there are gems in the rubble.

What I don't get is the way ordinarily respected UFO researchers like Stanton Friedman and Bill Birnes continue to hang on to the ET Hypothesis. If I was conspiracy minded, it would be enough to make me think that these guys are actually members of MJ-12 (or whatever it's called these days), working with folks like Seth Shostak and Neil deGrasse Tyson to steer any serious inquiry into the safe, infertile ground of aliens and space ships.

Of course, that's just crazy.



posted on Dec, 3 2008 @ 12:38 AM
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Originally posted by Dodecahedral
To me, extraterrestrials would be a natural explanation because they would have evolved like we did.


See, this is where I part company with most people. A culture on another planet, with no involvement or influence from Earth reality, would have NO basis in anything "like we did". Nothing. Hence, "alien".


Originally posted by Dodecahedral
Within ufology, you have eyewitness accounts, abduction cases, trace evidence, pictures, videos and more so there's more than enough evidence to draw a conclusion based on logic.


I'm glad you do. I've been at it 21 years this year and I find the evidence for the ETH sorely, sorely lacking. I see evidence of a phenomena, or a non-human intelligence, but not extraterrestrial by any stretch, at least by the way of definition as we understand it.

Again, mainstream UFOlogy, has NOT educated the public about the UFO question...it's sold it to them in a neat package. I can't fault anyone not involved in it to understand that.



posted on Dec, 3 2008 @ 01:13 AM
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Here's something maybe we can talk about as it relates to this broader and more complex sense of UFOlogy:

Do any of you know, what is reported by "experiencers" as occurring to them in addition to "abductions"? In other words, what else they experience - barring nosebleeds, marks and such. I'm talking about other experiences. Anyone know? Because it's highly telling. I won't be shocked if no one knows, because it's been buried by most mainstream "researchers" for years.

Until then, I was emailed a question that I said I'd answer here:

"Hey Jeff-if these beings are not real/real when they want to be how is it they do implants and put marks on people? If the evidence cannot exist in our reality part them being here, how is it the marks remain as well as the implants abductees have?"

There has never been any sort of implant recovered that passed the filter of not being earth based matter or body fragments. Not one. If there was, it'd be major, major news.

The idea that people would be tagged is absurd on the face of it. An obviously advanced race that can manifest itself here, through whatever means, needs to cut people and put stuff in? This is where things don't add up or make sense.

Again, the pedestrian view of little green men tagging us like animals, when it's logical to think if they can get here from wherever they are, human reproduction and keeping track of us would be no problem. Surgery in comparison to the technical prowess it displays, would be like us using string and tin cans as telephones when we have computers and cellular technology. It's absurd. Of course that's my view, and I guess to a certain point it's conjecture...but it makes sense to me for other reasons.

Here's the part where I draw on my own experiences, which you are free to believe me or not - that's your call. Doesn't bother me one way or the other.

These beings, seem to have an inordinate need to be recognized. Acknowledged as real, by us. Now it could be that by being recognized as such, they gain more easy access to our reality by being in public mind.

But, for a second remember that these people exist on the edge of our perceptions, yet want and desire acknowledgment as real. They cannot leave a piece with you, a gift, etc, because perhaps what they are "made of" cannot exist here for long (note the short instances of alien experiences, and sightings). So how to make you realize just how real they are.

Mark you with a cut. Scar you. You take the proof to yourself, on you.

"That's how real we are."

It's insignificant to the world, but YOU know. Thats all that matters. Again, this is a very subjective and personal experience. It's also deep in layers. It's also the most fearful experiences I personally have ever had...as in...ever.

So the scars, cuts and "implants" are more like wake up calls. Youre awakened to the complexity of the reality of experience. They want acknowledgment...and after that, you'll give it.

Make any sense? It's all very complex and hard to explain and I wish I had the ability to perfectly detail it....but thats the general gist.

Anyway in regard to the question at the beginning of this post...anyone?



posted on Dec, 3 2008 @ 04:03 AM
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I have only read through half of the pages in the thread & I'm already dying to see what outcome this study might bring forth
S & F for a very intriguing & honest effort to move forward in Ufology Alter Ego..

Here's my take on the matter


1) UFO's can't all be Alien nor can it all be simple mis-identification of natural phenomena & secret military projects. There are also quite a bit of cases where the probable ship/aerial vehicle seemed to show a somewhat organic property (i.e. shape shifting)....Thus for me they are, base on what limited facts & data are currently available, a mix of all three possibilities. (I don't know enough about inter-dimensionality to talk about such possibility)

2) I think UFO's are a mix of all 3 possibilities mentioned above, because there have always been cases representative of all three categories, as far as my personal recollection counted
Of course, I can always be wrong...

Is this multi-faceted nature of the UFO phenomenon actually a by product of the human collective perception or consciousness?? I really hope your keen effort will bring us at least closer to answering that



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