The Great Conspiracy-what if Jesus was never born?

Originally posted by clock1
Constantin the great will make a party with some of his buddies and they will make an edict and than they will attach it to some bestseller, just to boost popularity.

clock1,

skip meds today?

OT

PS: Please go over to another thread and distract, not here...

MODS?

Originally posted by rapinbatsisaltherage
I find your efforts interesting and applaud them, I really do. However since Jesus did presumably exist it is hard to create an in-depth analysis of what a world would be like with out him with out bringing in ones own bias. It is truly a question that will never have a right or wrong answer. I can assume the world would have been better off with out religion from the beginning and you can assume the world would be worse off with out Jesus. Either way the speculation is somewhat useless. The religions based off the bible have caused a lot of good and bad. I find it odd anyone would choose to assume what the world would be like with out Jesus, we only know of the outcome of the religious climate we now live in thanks to his existence; this current religious climate is already tirelessly debated as good or bad or both, with out bringing in “what if” speculations.

rapinbatsisaltherage, you are absolutely correct here!! There will never be a definitive answer...yes this is hypothetical.

However, the speculation is NOT useless...you see...there are millions of people who are busy with their lives...and for those who stumble on to ATS, this discussion MAY get them to PAUSE and think, 'maybe JC is not like that idiot Christian I know...maybe HE has had an effect (for good) on this world."

Maybe this discussion is apart of GRACE for some? I don't know..?

But I appreciate your thoughts...God bless you!

OT honored!

Don't get my joke wrong. My faith is Christian (Ortodox Christian) and for me it didnt matter if he was a real person or construct of imagination. What is important is the message as written in No.1 bestseller of all time. Main thing is that we still kill eachother and do evil like never before. It also bothers me that 2000 years is a long time and we still didnt get His message and those simple rules from old testament are so hard for humanity to remember.
Peace and respect.

[edit on 29-10-2008 by clock1]

Originally posted by SiONiX
One evil cult less on this world?

(I'm a formal Catholic Christian myself, but only in my passport, when I went to church the last time a decade ago I felt like witnessing a sect)

//EDIT: Just to clarify, in my country people don't jump around and dance and sing, it's more like this:

Scary...

[edit on 29.10.2008 by SiONiX]

SiONiX,

Scary... ????

For some maybe...

My worship/church service TASTES are a bit more contemporary than the link you showed...obviously right...from my youtube links in the OP.

All I say is...TO EACH THEIR OWN...

What ever works for you...or them!

OT will go to sleep, if things were that slow...

No judging here though...

OT out

OT,

I like you so forgive me when I say this, but some of the things you say in your post are very ignorant.

It's impossible to play the "What-If?" game, so I don't want to do that, but I'd like to point out some things that either still happen today, regardless of whether or not Jesus was real, or have developed in other parts of the world independantly of Christianity.


Slavery:
I was always under the impression that slavery was thrown out of the US because of international pressure, not religious beleifs.

Slavery has not disappeared today... there's a healthy human-trafficking market, and many, many people who are subsiding on menial wages, especialyl in 3rd world countries working to support the US. Not free at all.


Women's Rights:
I don't like how you lump all non-beleives into the catagory of "pagan." There have been many different cultures, who all have different beleifes as to the nature of men, women, and human sexuality, and they should all be discussed and compared within their own context.

That being said, the Christian ideal of males at the "head of the houshold" has caused just as much pain as any other system.

Would there be true compassion and mercy? Probably not! Jesus’ ministry gave an elevated position to the lowly. Notice the Good Samarian… it’s still a part of a vocabulary . While there are good charitable efforts outside of the name of Jesus, Christain charities stand out. Mother Theresa, the Salvation Army, religious hospitals, and church supported soup kitchens/thrift shops, etc. Saint Nick, too, was a saint.

This one really makes me go . Of course there would be true compassion and mercy. They are just as much a part of the human spirit as anger and hatred, just harder to bring out.

Do some reading into Buddhism, for example... compassion and charity is a major tenant of the religion.

It's unfair to say that things like the Salvation Army sustainable charities only because they are Christian. It's actually that are Christian charities because Christianity is the only dominant and accepted religious system in the West.

How would Children fair? Not Good! Back in the day infanticide was not only legal, it was applauded. In Roman culture the killing one's own children could be an act of beauty. It was the early Christian church that ultimately brought an end to infanticide. The modern pro-life movement is largely Christian. This pro-life view has been true from the very beginning of Christianity. An early Christian document, the Didache, contained instructions against abortion.

Infanticide has not stopped. It's even documentable here in our own culture.

What about Education? Would be way behind! Remember Judeo/Christian tradition certainly put an emphasis on the written word. The phenomenon of education for the masses has its roots in the Protestant Reformation. Please do a little research here.

Before the reformation the Church was actively stymying the progress of Western thought. This has improved only marginally today.

Please do some historical reasearch into the education and scientific prowess of Ancient China, Ancient India, and early Islamic cultures. You may be surprised. China had a profound knowledge of chemestry, both India and China were proficiant at weaving, dying, and medicine, and the Islamic nations profoundly increased human knowledge of astronomy and mathematics. These countries did not follow Jesus.

Likewise, oriental written alphabets and numeric systems far predate Christianity.

I will not deny you that Christianity has inspired some stunning works of art. I am particulaly awed by Catholic cathedrals, vestments, and Biblical illustrations. But once again, please keep in mind that the 3 cultures I listed above, and many, many without influence of Christianity, have just as profound of an artistic repetoire.

It's also unfair to suggest that art began with Christianity. Every culture has its art, but most hasn't survived to our eyes.


American Government:

The structure of the AMerican government was based largely on the writings of the Enlightenment. Secular scholars. It was also influenced by the Iraqois government, who once again were not Christian.



Those are my thoughts OT! Hope they help you out a bit!

Originally posted by clock1
Don't get my joke wrong. My faith is Christian (Ortodox Christian) and for me it didnt matter if he was a real person or construct of imagination. What is important is the message as written in No.1 bestseller of all time. Main thing is that we still kill eachother and do evil like never before. It also bothers me that 2000 years is a long time and we still didnt get His message and those simple rules from old testament are so hard to humanity to remember.
Peace and respect.

SWEET!!!!

That is a better post!!!!

I echo your hope for more love, respect and civility one to another...

What are your thoughts on my OP, if you have time, my brother?

OT

reply to post by OldThinker


I'm sorry, that's all I have to say about this topic. I could pick your post apart, but will use the time for sth. better then arguementing about this, I guess it would be useless....

One single point as an example why it's ludicrous:

Education. The church that was built upon the Jesus Myth raped the whole continent (Europe, amongst others), killed thousands of women and alternate thinkers, in an attempt to suppress education and science (cause they could prove those fairy tales too be completely fictional and wrong), so I think it's outrageous to say Jesus helped spread education.

Religion is bad. How blindly following people interpret it is even dangerous. One example to show the hypocrisity(sp?): "They shall not murder" vs. "They shall try real hard not to kill anyone unless of course they pray to a different invisible man from the one you pray to" (- George Carlin)

THIS is what all those silly wars are about, without religion I believe we could already have made it to a Type I Civilization. People are just to gullible. Thousands of years ago it was Jesus, or even Moses speaking to God, today it's Blossom Goodchild speaking to the Galactic Federation of Light.

I highly respect your belief though , but I don't respect the huge complex that was installed over the centuries that made you belief in it.

(And sry for being slightly off-topic, but the myth of Jesus played a major part in those developments)

"Slavery has not disappeared today... there's a healthy human-trafficking market, and many, many people who are subsiding on menial wages, especialyl in 3rd world countries working to support the US. Not free at all."

I agree with you. Right now there are more slaves than in Roman empire. But this is well hidden. The picture of todays world is photoshoped one with pink gold layers.

reply to post by asmeone2


Dude, we go back!!!!

Thanks for your time...and your thoughts...

We'll agree to disagree (on a percentage basis) with this one...some good thoughts here.

You are always ready for the discussion...OT honored to call you a friend!

Hows Texas tonight?

I'm freezing in VA, ready to watch BO do his thing!!

OT

reply to post by SiONiX


OK....

Have a good night...

Appreciate your contribution here!!!

OT

PS BTW, He's my best friend....over 35 yrs...U2U me if you like, ok?

Originally posted by clock1
"Slavery has not disappeared today... there's a healthy human-trafficking market, and many, many people who are subsiding on menial wages, especialyl in 3rd world countries working to support the US. Not free at all."

I agree with you. Right now there are more slaves than in Roman empire. But this is well hidden. The picture of todays world is photoshoped one with pink gold layers.

clock1,

Good point!!!

We should pray...

And do what ever we can to eleviate this BS...

MY kids and I support a number of children in those countries, thru a relief agency...

Have a good night, ok?

OT

reply to post by OldThinker


Thank you OT.

I say this with utter respect to you but it would do you good to read about other cultures, and try to view them from their perspective, without lining them up to how they are "wrong" against the bible.

For instance I am reading a book now about homosexual and transgendered individuals in tribal societies... it is a fascinating read... in their own culture these people were actually viewed as more holy, because they could understand things from a spiritually male or female perspective. It's quite different from how some people view the same behavior today, but made perfect sense and had a proper function within certain cultures, because it was not viewed as a msitake.

reply to post by OldThinker


I feel you. The message is right. Sure. Love your next, protect your family etc.

That's absolutely fine. But I'm afraid that's not all. In his name so much violence was spread around, it's a shame.

Look, this is how I think about it:
Let's consider the Jesus Myth to be true. 2000 years ago, it was a good thing. It was about love, help others, praise what you have etc., I may even have been one of his followers if I were alive back there.
But after this, what good did happen in his name? You wrote about crusades.... where's the "love your next" there? Some good probably did happen, but it is by far outweighed by the violence, hate and ignorance that was spread in his name. Poor guy...

I think if Jesus would return tomorrow, he would be ashamed what people did in his name and quit the Christian church.

reply to post by asmeone2


Exactly what I'm talking about. I think Jesus may be with you, if he were around today.

reply to post by asmeone2


Sounds like a great read to me...

I am open...

U2U me the title, ok?

Originally posted by SiONiX
reply to post by asmeone2

 

Exactly what I'm talking about. I think Jesus may be with you, if he were around today.

Hah. I would hope so

Originally posted by SiONiX
reply to post by OldThinker

 

I feel you. The message is right. Sure. Love your next, protect your family etc.

That's absolutely fine. But I'm afraid that's not all. In his name so much violence was spread around, it's a shame.

Look, this is how I think about it:
Let's consider the Jesus Myth to be true. 2000 years ago, it was a good thing. It was about love, help others, praise what you have etc., I may even have been one of his followers if I were alive back there.
But after this, what good did happen in his name? You wrote about crusades.... where's the "love your next" there? Some good probably did happen, but it is by far outweighed by the violence, hate and ignorance that was spread in his name. Poor guy...

I think if Jesus would return tomorrow, he would be ashamed what people did in his name and quit the Christian church.

SO TRUE!!!

If JC were to come back (anonymously) he would be at FROGGIES, or whatever the local bar is in your area...

Not some stepal/church!!!!

He is about the folks!!!!! not so-called religious-ites...where Bill Mayer, when you need him?

SiONiX, please give this Jesus another chance, ok?

Have you read...

Romans 3:23
Romans 6:23
Romans 8:1
Romans 10:9, 10

The Apostle Paul is da-man!!!!!!!!!

Originally posted by OldThinker

1) Yes, Christians make mistakes and are hypocrites, so please no response-links to the crusades, ok? Mistakes are the REASON we ‘need a savior’… www.youtube.com...
2) Yes, Christians are pushy, in asking ‘why do you run from Jesus?’… www.youtube.com...
3) Yes, Christians are arrogant and OT is a peculiar Jesus Freak… www.youtube.com...

Readers, any thoughts on these youtube musics videos, their message????

I believe Jesus was alive but his name was used in vain, and dark forces created a religion to fit their agenda without having Jesus support. The irony: they used his name to further their interests and to dupe mankind, but they did it with righteous facades!

"By their fruits you will recognize them," Yes the fruit from religion has a long history of being rotten.

The negative results of Christianity far outweigh the positive and that - unfortunately is how it needs to be viewed. Otherwise, God and his son cannot be considered divine. They fail too easily!

That is an unpalatable option to me so I have to understand that Christianity never had their blessing!

I understand though, your ministry, in wanting to do what you feel is their will. I sympathize with you, I was there once.

Originally posted by MatrixProphet
I understand though, your ministry, in wanting to do what you feel is their will. I sympathize with you, I was there once.

Thanks...

What changed your mind, since you were once here??

OT