What is the best form of government to live under?

Persoanlly i do not think i would want to live under any version of human governments. They all stink.

Maybe in the future, we may create computers that are so advanced, that they decide what is right and wrong in our society and let them be the judge. I heard al bielek, talk about his version of a future, with such a computer, but will we ever get such a thing, and will it corrupt, in some way, like how the matrix film plays out?

So the best i think is some sort of socialism, but again, humans being humans, they have there needs to bring suffering on people they hate.

So what can we do?

Originally posted by andy1033
Persoanlly i do not think i would want to live under any version of human governments. They all stink.

How about a system based on abundance and love...? One that really has no governance, but offers everything you might want, allowing you to do whatever you want whenever you want?

Maybe in the future, we may create computers that are so advanced, that they decide what is right and wrong in our society and let them be the judge. I heard al bielek, talk about his version of a future, with such a computer, but will we ever get such a thing, and will it corrupt, in some way, like how the matrix film plays out?

Or... How about a future where computers/robots do all our labor, freeing us to follow our personal bliss?

So the best i think is some sort of socialism, but again, humans being humans, they have there needs to bring suffering on people they hate.

Hate is generally spawned in a scarcity paradigm. If everyone is busy following their bliss, unworried about how they will provide for themselves (food, clothing, shelter, love, tools), there is little time for hate...

So what can we do?

Opt to automate all labor. Eliminate money. Promote love. Enjoy abundance.

The Scandinavian countries form of proportional democracy is the highest form of democracy operating in the world, and they shine their lights for all to see. Norway has repeatedly achieved the highest standard of living given by the UN. An example of how poorly winner takes all politics is done would be in BC, during the last election of Gordon Campbell. He received in his own riding, and throughout the province around 40% of the vote and won a majority government. 60% voted ndp and green, and thus a right winged party with fascist leanings won nearly every seat and feels its has the mandate to govern a majority who want a more decent equatable system. By comparison, in proportional democracy, the percentage you vote for takes the seats. This means votes aren't wasted and more and more parties form. Scandinavian countries have 30% and higher women elected as well. Their tax dollars boomerang back into their communities in superlative and remarkable programs, and the base standard of living for all members of society is practical and manageable. In addition, necessities such as the cost of food and housing is controlled so all have access to them. They show that trauma=crime. Their crime rates,especially violent crimes is substantially low. Norway has an almost non-existent murder rate, with 0 % being the closest number to round to. They treat their prisoners with respect as well. Here is a quick preview of Norway:




Now, with zeitgeist's latest video showing what a moneyless resource based economy could look like, introducing the venus project for consieration, its important to note, that a moneyless resource based society has already been in operation for over 10,000 years in the Americas. This is how the natives always lived.

reply to post by mystiq


Thank you so much for that vid. That was awesome.

Why our evil empire officials push for more and more degraging behavior towards others is... Well, it's not beyond me, since I can envision myself in that mindset, but it is [shrug] evil. Purely and simply.

Respect begets respect.

reply to post by iiinvision


Thank you for your thorough response on my input. You present very many good points.
However, I was only stating my opinion, I don't really expect anyone to agree with me, especially on a conspiracy website. But so far, there are many forms of Government that look good on paper.

the best form of Government to live under is the Dictatorship of Jerico65. I promise to be a nice guy as long as a fine collection of wenches are supplied to my castle on a daily basis.

Fail me on that, and you don't know the sort of Hell I can bring you!

reply to post by jerico65


In these dire times...you still got a chuckle outta me!

Thanks. [smile]

reply to post by Amaterasu


Thank you, thank you. I'll be here until Thursday. Please try the roast beef and remember to tip your waiter or waitress!!

Now, back to the thread!

reply to post by mystiq


While you are correct about the natives it's important to note that this is simply not the case any more (maybe in parts of S America but not in the north), in fact, most native americans couldn't and wouldn't want to live the way they traditionally would. The elders are the only ones who truly remember the old ways and they're all going to die within the next 20-30 years. I've lived in Oklahoma all my life and I'm part Comanche, a very very little part. I've studied the indian way of life for a long time; it truly was a beautiful system, even when unromanticized. It wont work anymore though, the big game is almost all gone, and we have too many structures to be nomadic in any way. The water isn't clean and neither is the food; it's a bad deal all around. Indians these days are happy to eat cheese and not pay their water bills. Not racist, just truth.

I'd love to see that way of life as much as anybody else, but like everyone has said, it simply can't happen. Not anymore. If we did get blown back into the stone age, we'd have to huddle into small (or largeish) camps around what few clean water supplies are left. This is assuming that the only thing which could be so detrimental is a nuclear war.

It would be a few years before any "tribes" were formed and even more before game was hunted again. Radiation's a ****

I want a "Virtual" Constitutional Democracy

one where we all use computers to enable any random person to engauge in political process

Congress can be abolished and finally we can start Progress, which is every person may choose to represent themselve in the political forum

I disagree. But thats because I see the world federal reserve as something that has to be greeted by complete non-cooperation. In the four corners, despite a certain modern structure a certain preservation has been maintained in traditional work. But I'm talking about project venus without the 500,000 price tag. Such a thing only takes the will of the people to do. This is a society that like the natives, is resource based and moneyless, but is more like the author of alien minds promotes as a more alien based economy, which is a very good thread he started here on ATS. Zeitgeists new movie is very good, because this time it offers alternatives. People aren't just going to walk away, in numbers, sufficient to take land and start their own communities yet. But the seeds of knowledge, or spreading the idea throughout the world, so its the back of everyones mind, is real solution. Nwo is only going to come about by making people feel hopeless and vulnerable, like theres no where to turn. But they've had the numbers to truly frighten those maintaining their power and false economic slavery. Benjamin Fulford says that the number of true powers and instigators of the worldwide system of slavery can be brought down to 50 old men.

If people have an idea in their minds, that they can do, simply by grouping up in large numbers, that they can build their own off grid villages for each other, and generators, ham radios, preserve technical no-how, alternate health, and grow until the futuristic venus project emerges throughout the world, without money, without bartering, one family emerging from the nightmare of institutions that enslaved them. Just planting these seeds will make it a lot harder for nwo to control the masses. Because they'll know the ball is in their hands truly and they can walk out. A moneyless resource society, without immediate access to high tech equipment, would begin as a lot of hard work for people, and not everyone could work equally as hard. But even kids can have fun stomping on the rolls of soil, minerals and hay to make cod houses. It will take a lot cooperation, and a willingness to enforce complete equality of everyone so that houses will be erected for infirm and elderly as well. This is the kind of solution that provides technology to be developed, not lost, and its practical in that, within 10 years or so of working hard together, the work would drop off. The pay off would be centuries of better living for every single child on earth, and their children, and their children's children.

Even under current conditions, villages like this are being developed throughout the world right now. Many people believe global catastrophes are coming. In addition, even if the worst of them don't arrive, they believe in a better way of life. Currently it takes money to get off the grid. If the numbers come through, it won't, it'll just take communities of people pooling up what little resources, tents, tools, supplies and know how, blue prints, they have on land they decide to build on. With knowledge of a real lasting alternative out there. And thats whats happening now, the knowledge is being given. The seeds are being thrown to the winds, the ball will truly be in our collective courts as to whether we choose to be slaves.

[edit on 11-10-2008 by mystiq]

In my honest opinion, no government at all would be the best government. Let people work together in communion, learning to prop one another up, sharing in the absolute amazement that is life. Well amazing when we aren't killing each other over ignorant things.

Originally posted by Oreyeon
In my honest opinion, no government at all would be the best government. Let people work together in communion, learning to prop one another up, sharing in the absolute amazement that is life. Well amazing when we aren't killing each other over ignorant things.

And let the robots do all the s^!t work.

If robots do that stuff, the jobs some people love can be done by those who love it. And the abundance of the Universe will flow to all.

Originally posted by wheresthetruth
For the moment, the government of the US (and others around the world) are not really working out like a lot of people would wish. The waters are so polluted in so many areas as nations try to adopt this or that to maintain their own idea of a successful society. Currently, the US is a Democratic Republic. In its origin, the founders felt this type of representation would allow the country to develop without giving too much power to any one or few people and that the citizens could choose for themselves who they would have speak for them. The democratic inclinations demand that every choice be met with majority favor, insuring that at least the majority of the people of the nation would be served with each action conducted by the representing government. Of course, we have seen of late (last couple of decades) that the bumpy road is paved with the best of intentions. We are evolving (or perhaps devolving) into Corporate Capitalism with Socialist intentions and it is further polluting the D.R. waters and corrupting the politicians that swim in it.
With the state of the world right now and the ever changing political societies that come and go, what would be your choice form of government to live under? Assume you could clutter or purify the ideology.

I may get scolded for this, especially as an American citizen, but in its simplest form, Communism is an attractive government option. Polluted by the socialistic or capitalist properties is when it starts to fail by serving the few on the backs of the many. Purified Communism is a free and open society where people are not labeled or placed into classes. It promotes all for all rather than most for the few. One downfall is the idea of collective ownership, which basically entitles everyone to everything. It is not a bad idea if you grow up in such a society, but it meets with objections from those that are used to private or limited shared ownerships and limited beneficiaries. As well, it is a bit chaotic, since the lack of classification means that many people do many things, having few specialists in the society. However, over time, I think a society that could hold the core ideals of this type of government would see more benefits than downfalls.

USSR proved that a cluttered Communism does not work over long term and the US has proven that a Democratic Republic does not always work either.

I would love to know what more of you think on this subject. There is a lot of civics out there to choose from and plenty of success and failure proof to back a claim either way.

When the Soviet Union finally crumbled in 1991, my ex-wife (a political economist and former advisor to a certain Texas political family) said, "Well, we're next". Of course she put no timeline on it, but it was one of the few things my ex-wife was right about. With Free Market vs. State Socialism, you have two unworkable systems slugging it out for dominance. What will finally come out of this mess is "The Third Way", a modified market economy with an activist government. The right wing of the GOP will jump up and down, but the tide has turned on their libertarian market philosophy.

reply to post by Amaterasu


Your view is very interesting. A technocracy is somewhat intriguing, but I have a few problems with its long term principles. The primary counterpoints that come to mind are vulenerabilities to villainous ends and the health risks for the people.

First, lets get the easy one out of the way. Health and wellbeing. You point out that by employing automation to handle the labor-intensive jobs, you free up people to pursue a more blissful life. I think you are putting too much faith in modern man's desire to self-motivate. There are far too many people that prefer a sedentary lifestyle and without encouragement or demand that they actually make a physical effort to "do something", you are likely to find a large percentage of people completely incapable of generating enough energy to think clearly or physically live their life. Granted, every society imaginable has a measure of individuals without any form of motivation and there are always those with addictions or genetic disorders, but there is a limit to those when labor directly influences lifestyle.

Next, we have the controversial point. Can the machines be secured against villainous activities? Can they be directed to cause harm? With all of the modern technology that we have now and on the horizon tracing its roots back to sci-fi, it is not a truly far stretch to consider that some of the worst expectations played out on page and screen could become a reality. I dont think it is remotely possible that there will be an infectious cloud that will cause trucks to turn on humans, but a robot can be programmed to do just about anything. They can also be controlled to do anything the handler wants and they operate in nano-seconds, or hundreds of times faster than human reaction. Couple that with Smart AI technology that learns from its mistakes, generates theory based on random analogy, can perform complex calculations thousands of times faster and more difficult than human couterparts and has an absolute lack of consciousness and you have before you a recipe for disaster. I work in and around robotic technology everyday. It is a given safety feature that they must be completely shutdown before entering a workspace within range of those massive, all-steel arms. An example of what happens is when a maintenance tech went in without shutting one down and with no prompt or short circuit, the arm swung around and shattered his jaw, losing all of the teeth on one side of his mouth and requiring a complete rebuild. To this day, there is not a concrete reason why the bot performed the maneuver.

I agree that automation aids society, but I have to disagree with it as a principle form of society.

reply to post by muzzleflash


I am torn on the idea of virtual control for the populace. I hear some really, really stupid people talk about what they wish the government would do. Couple the idiots with the self-absorbed, egotists who only want what is best for themselves alone and you have a major population that has no clue what even a decent choice would be for a society-at-large.
Of course, to counter my own statement, I would love to be able to vote at home. I would love it if I could be sent a copy of a document to review on my own, written in laymens script, given a fair and acceptable amount of time for review and vote my opinion, allowing for comments along with the vote. I say I would like that, but I also think I am a slightly less self-absorbed and definitely less greedy than most of those a$$hats that sit on the "hill".

I just dont think society could truly handle the responsibility of running itself. It would decend into chaos within a year.

I will propose a system of government similar to what the military has.

You get folks spread around doing different types of jobs for the benefit of the community, in support of the community and to advance the community, short and simple.

During the school years a kid could develop his own idea of what he wants to become and is he has the aptitude for it, then he is placed in a position that he could fill.

The decisions are made by the elders and the biggest decidions are made by a council, something like the Chief of Staff but with more members and representative of each segment of the communnity.

At some age the elders would be replaced by those who are coming up the ranks and this kind of pipeline can be sustain the same way the military does.

You increase your personal gains, by the more rank or by the contribution you make to the community that way you encourage people to be innovative and to progress.

Anyways my two cents.

Originally posted by unityemissions
Libertarianism. It makes the most sense. Anarchy is not an option for todays world, but a truly limited government is ideal.

[edit on 9-10-2008 by unityemissions]

Libertarianism is more a form of Ideology than a form of government, however I do understand where you are coming from, and I believe you are correct.

Limited Constitutional government = stronger communities. Rather than government reliance, folks rely on friends, neighbors, and themselves.

reply to post by Bunch


Wouldnt your proposal be a form of Communism? The only real difference between your idea and Communism is the difference in class/status (you offer reward of rank). Unless I am reading your post wrong.
How would ranking work? The higher your status, the more deserving you become? In the military, rank equates to your seniority, experience, professionalism, obedience, pay rate, and power. The highest ranking is in charge, while the lowest ranking is the obedient worker. In that respect, it seems to be also influenced by Authoritarian rule. Authoritarian rule is denoted by a single entity, which could be a dictator or a ruling cabinet.

Am I understanding your concept?

I have thought about this a lot.

I favor a system in which free market capitalism is followed with a socialist twist. A 100% death tax. And, I would disallow the corporate form in order to force personal responsibility. (No limited liability for your actions.)

This way every individual is allowed to rise or fall on his or her own merits, but their children are required to do the same. No "dynasties" are allowed, and thus, no oligopolies or monopolies form and disrupt the free market capitalism.

The proceeds from the death tax would pay for public works, education, the military, etc., and there would be no other form of taxation.

Since you cannot pass your wealth on to your heirs, there is no motivation other than your own personal drive and ambition to succeed, or your love of what you do. It also skews you towards having to invest your time with your children if you want them to succeed as well, because you will not get the chance to leave them a blank check that will allow them to buy their way through life.

It still needs some work, but thats what I would favor.

Not sure exactly what it is called yet. I am sure there will be a few unfavorable suggestions.