Is Atheism just a new religion? Part two

It has been at least a few months since I have last posted on here, so thanks everyone on the boards for enticing me in with your interesting views.

For anyone that doesnt know, this is a restarting of a thread I posted a while back late one night, I didnt get many replies (compelling enough to enjoy) and therefore left it. Over the months though, many people did read my post and get back to me, stating their beliefs, arguing mine and posing interesting ideas. Sadly I only just got to read them, and I unintentionally ignored a lot of good points. So I am willing to start this thread again, to revaluate these ideas and push for larger responses and a more debated topic.

So, my disclaimer, this is not written to change minds, im not against anyone, im not taking sides, in fact on the two sides, im not in the middle, im in a different place entirely but am interested in everyones views and beliefs. What I say, should not be Atheists siding against me and religious people supporting, but is intended to get a mixture from both, if you do react as expected then id feel that maybe you should think about things a little more before getting back to me, but your views are just as valid. This part is only to discourage posts that are irrelevant to the argument.

By the way, I'm useless at these so dont expect to fully understand what I mean before a few questions. But I digress. Why would I make my statement?

For my understanding, religious believers and atheists, both get a lot of stick for their beliefs, some for right, some for wrong. Atheists believe that there is no god and believe that religion is wrong also because of this, unfair in my part, for one to label all religions in one package, one might be right and I doubt most of this so called critics have bothered to read into any of them, yet alone all. Of course there is the evil, of religious pushing their beliefs, which is what most atheists oppose. But tell me this, if you oppose this, why do you find it so hard not to push your beliefs. Snobby behavior and an inability to let people get on with their beliefs because you dont share them. I know many a post will claim scientific proof of evolution and the solar system we know nothing about, the belief that we are the one planet in an empty ever going hole, that was born from nothing and will die as nothing, ive heard it, ive understood it, but please , ignoring the fact that no-one knows if humans have evolved, how does this disproof gods involvement in the world, a being with great power to create would surely find it impossible to let us adapt, ridiculous.

The coin has two sides, religion has perhaps pushed the boundaries of being a respectable organization, pushing far too many beliefs and being far too stuck in its ways. In fact its unquestionable belief system pushed me away from it and I would not account myself an atheist. Then there is the self destroying nature of religion. Wars and fights erupting around the world over which particular religion is right or wrong. Who is to say any are? How do they know there is a god? How does anyone know there isnt? Sure agnostics have their way of ignoring this by sitting on the edge of the coin, till one eventually wins the coin toss, this isnt wrong, but probably not right either, but it does no one no harm.

But why would you argue there is no proof of a God, if there is no counteracting proof. Yes the bible pulls a community in by offering cheap and easy answers, but does no one stand with my belief that Atheism offers the same cheap answers with no real solid basis to it. Yes there are theories, yes there has been experiments, but maybe we should have moved on by this point, Atheists believe that there was a time when religion wasnt needed and that time has passed. I beleive that the time has now come for athiests to step down from there places. Something new is needed, something not offering cheap answers. So thanks all you have just read my first MAX length post. Now you

If anyone is interested. Here is my original Thread opener in full. May help open a few more opinions than this attempt. As I am after opinions, not to change peoples beliefs on such things.

reply to post by Dany_Barking


Ok forgot the thread, try again:

"Ok,,, so reading around on ATS. A split seems to be set in stone about religion. Now I have no care either way as to what is what, who believes what, It's a persons actions that defines a man, not his passed on beliefs.

Now why I bring this up for is: - I wish to have peoples opinions, from both parties on this question: -

Is Atheism pushing against religion but setting itself as a religion of its own?

Why do I say this. Atheists as a general principle seem to blame problems of the world and history on religion. Perhaps there is evidence to support this, I havent looked into it much. But every Atheist I meet seems pushed to the notion that everyone should believe what they believe...

Now correct me if you feel the need, but isn't these traits the exact thing your against. Aren't you against religion because of the conflict caused by different peoples beliefs? So why are you against people with religious beliefs? Atheism is setting itself up with all the traits of religion, with science as your God. This being pushed to all manners of extremes.

I myself believe in Science, I believe in God. Im not sure about Christianity, as I refuse to believe a religion based on the fact that I was born in a mainly Christian country. If I was born in India I would have been Muslim or one of the other prominent religions of the Middle east. I will one day look into all these religions to further my knowledge, but for now I am happy with my own knowledge that something beyond the power of man exists. I believe it, you dont have to, you dont have to understand it.

It seems to me, Atheism was onto something good, man looking after himself, looking towards understanding the world rather than just living in it. But you took it too far. But anyway, I could go on about this for hours. I am not here to spread my view only, I want to hear others views, religious and atheists... What do you make of my views...

I leave the page open to you."

Welcome back! I have always thought that those who don't fear a god are more likely to act out of selflessness; and to not worry of the future consequences thier actions might bring. With that being said, I'm not sure how the world would be operating if everyone was an atheist. I believe in a higher power and wouldn't push my views on anyone, but I understand that there are seperate views and I'll continue to respect that. Much like the gay and lesbian movement, I still love, except, and understand their choice, but again I wonder if everyone was gay how could we remain populated. With that being said, there will always be people who will believe in something and so I don't think we'll ever see our planet full of atheists any more than I expect to see our planet filled with gay people. We are all different and that's what makes the world go round; and most of us have a conscious that tells us to do the right thing... whether we beleive in god or not. But I would challenge the best scientists to find our conscious in the human body and then when they can,t, then come tell me there is no god. For me, it just seems way to complex to come from a living cell... when we don't know where the living cell came from. Like the old analogy/question: "which came first, the chicken or the egg?" And when you pick one, then ask who designed it to be a chicken or an egg. If you say god, then ask yourself where he may have come from... and we can be here for eternity posting to this thread. In any case, I would like to believe that there is a god and I conduct myself as if he is judging me, but I have no proof of that anymore than I have proof he doesn't exist. And I've seen more evidence that intelligent life may exist in other galaxies and often wondered what they thought about religion, or whether they believe in a god. One thing I am sure of, however, is that the only possible way to find out in my lifetime whether god exists or not may be when I check out. If not, everything goes black and I never know the difference and that gives me the creeps. Good luck with more responces to your thread.

reply to post by LunarLooney1


Thank you. I hoped to get a good open reply like yours, but honestly wasnt expecting them till a little later on. Thank you for the comparison of religion and gay, while comical it certainly cannot be said that it doesnt ring true, it is all about peoples choices about how they wish to live. Off topic I know, but I too agree that anybody can be gay if they choose, even everybody and this will not change my opinion that I dont want to kiss a guy, this is true with religion also, I dont wish to be stuck down to a religion I was simply born into, but I certainly see this as no reason not to believe in a God, or for arguments sake, a 'higher power'.

Your points of the chicken and the egg is also a good one. I used the same theory when discussing the endlessness of the universe recently. We came to the conclusion that it is impossible for the universe to end, but at the same time that nothing is endless, so what is at the end? Nothing? If there was nothing thered be something beyond it, if so whats beyond that, if theres multiple universes, ok, but whats beyond them, they could circle in on each other, but whats around that circle. This is the same with the belief of God, how can there not be a creator if there is so much, how can nothing become nothing and what happens when that nothing becomes nothing? Then there are obvious forces in the world that cant be explained by religion or Science, merely named. Irony is perhaps among my favorite to ponder, while luck is my favorite to receive, of course you make your own luck in life, but this doesnt prove or disprove a thing.

Well they are two much larger topics right there on their own, if you have a view on either. Please send me a Private message and I'll consider a new thread. But dont anybody get sidetracked, our topic for this thread is above. Views, opinions and debates appreciated.

Even as a practicing catholic, to truthfully answer the OP, I have to say:

You can quite justifiably say that something doesn't exist without conclusive evidence to it's nonexistence, if there's no evidence for it's existence. Proof of nonexistence is almost impossible for even the most trivial things, let alone for an entity like god/gods. There is an infinite number of things you don't believe, most of which have not yet been conceived, and most will never be conceived. It's also a logical fallacy to assume that it's up to the other party to prove something doesn't exist.

There really isn't any credible evidence for any religion. There are, of course, billions of personal anecdotes, but, if you're being rigorous, the opinion of the overwhelming majority of human beings ever to live doesn't mean a damn thing. Much/most/all the physical evidence purported to prove any given religion is true is faked. My own religion is by far no exception; in fact, it's probably one of, if not the, worst offenders.

Essentially, regardless of whether it's the CORRECT opinion/belief, weak atheism is the most solid and justified position. Religion has to be taken on faith and personal experience, until some good evidence pops up. And in my opinion, it hasn't. Frankly, I can't see why most everyone doesn't just admit that atheism is a well grounded position, and that religion is a positive claim taken on faith. We're not supposed to believe in god because it's the undeniable truth of reality. There's nothing physical to support that. You're supposed to believe on faith.

John 20;29
"Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed."

Since Jesus isn't around anymore showing people the holes in his side to prove his Resurrection, and you can only see god in all things good in the metaphorical sense, you have to take it on faith. And that's what god intended, by my interpretation of this verse. It's actually preferred to believe without evidence. While that doesn't fit well with the rest of my personality, it's what god wants. And unless you aren't convinced by the word of the bible and it's adherents, who is anyone to deny god?

most other religions are the same way, nearest I can tell.

(By weak atheism, I mean the assertion that there isn't any good evidence for any god or gods, so no belief in any is taken, with the assumption that it's probabl that none exist. Strong atheism is the assertion that there isn't any god. Some of the latter kind get kind of preachy and annoying, like dawkins, but whatever. Ain't anyone ever blown people up in the name of a lack of gods.)


EDIT: removed an extraneous "y"

[edit on 3-9-2008 by mdiinican]

Thank you for your views. Indeed the very foundations of religion is to believe based on faith, faith that what your following is the right path to follow. Of course no-one knows for fact which is the right to follow, and that view can be added to almost every aspect of life.

I am quite disappointed that this thread isnt attracting more opinions, but regarding quality over quantity I am pleased. I blame the long original post, which can be a little off putting and daunting. I merely tried my best to cover all points for a fair and friendly discussion.

To reply to you post, I myself am a religious man without a religion. I mentioned before that I dont feel I could benefit from supporting a religion that was forced upon me, so have taken a few years out to get my head around my own belief system. While I cant say my life has benefitted majestically from the time ive given myself, it has allowed me to freshly observe the actions of both religion and atheism from a completely fresh perspective, allowing me to see the Atheists around me be molded into the very group of people they themselves are against. They even have elected themselves a figure head from which their beliefs stem. Yes, this isnt all Atheists, some believe what they believe and get on with life, but there are many, who have now decided to follow Atheism, follow its teachings and believe that the world would be a better place if all people shared there beliefs. Its when any section of society get to this stage that they can become very dangerous indeed. As a reminder many people have been killed in the middle east and by the middle east over similar beliefs.

So for Atheists on the boards, feel free to share, this isnt posted as an attack on you. Many a similar belief has been expressed on this board by atheists and I tend to side with them more, more of these characters have like me spent a little time to think about it, worked out how they believe the world works and followed it despite any social constraints. So far ive had two very good posts, clear and thought provoking. Lets see some more. But remember to deny ignorance... please!

Athiests believe in science and logic... but the fallacy there is that we can observe everything and, within our society, we are inherently logical. Some figure put the observable portion of existence at less than one percent. I'd say it is infinitely smaller than that. I'd say that we only know what we pretend to know for certain. It's obvious to those who choose to look that all we are observing are symptoms of a quite layered multi-verse.

As for the religious, most believe without experience or even knowing what they believe exactly. Same as most atheists. Anything can become a religion if you can't see past it.

reply to post by dunwichwitch


Exactly, Atheism becomes a religion the second people believe it without once questioning its authenticity. Its something they believe because they are told to believe. Religion has this problem, where people will tell you everything you need to know about it, that they themselves were told at a previous time, which is the problem I have with many an atheist, when they tell me that there is no God, no higher power, I wonder how they can tell me this without no proof. The same as I once did to Christians, and now incorporate to all groups of similar standings. All rely on faith, but shun others. Part of the reason I love this site, is its number of people who have overlooked the obvious, many of the exceptions who have posted here.

I take it now as a compliment that my topic has produced either no answers from those who view it, or a view that rest very similar to my own. It shows that I have expressed my opinion validly enough to not receive the usual array of ideal bashing which occurs with many a similar topic. I secondly blame the overly long opening argument however, but perhaps this puts off the idiots, who knows. But I have lot less posts than my last outing.

Makes me wonder, I try hard to get an opinionated post that discusses an issue that many can relate too, being careful to not be like the usual idiot and attack a certain group or belief, but rather lay out my views and asked for contributers. But it appears no one bothers to read as they feel the post was perhaps too long I guess. By this standing, I would have better to have a quick unthought out comment, chucked it with some offensive slurs and got lots of opinions. I thought the site was about opinions and being a part of something that cannot be found anywhere else on the net, but just like everywhere else, if its not an argument no ones prepared to join. Its sad to see that here.

Originally posted by Dany_Barking
reply to post by dunwichwitch

 

Exactly, Atheism becomes a religion the second people believe it without once questioning its authenticity. Its something they believe because they are told to believe.

i think the difference is that Atheism teaches not to believe in something, while religion teaches to believe in something.

Trying to "prove" atheism, or as you put it to verify its "authenticity," would be impossible, much like proving a negative is impossible.

reply to post by scientist


Hmm, I actually think you are wrong, Atheism has never taught anyone to not believe in something. I think you've over stepped there. Atheism teaches not to believe in God,,, but I think the requirements to believe in nothing of any sort are to just never really think about anything and not be led by anyones opinions.

When one believes in nothing entirely they must be living a very sad and lonely existence. It is human nature to believe in something, no matter how spiritual or materialistic that belief may be.

reply to post by Dany_Barking


well defining atheism is tricky. I am referring to it within the context of nontheism, and I didn't write that out correctly.

I meant that atheism (within the aforementioned context) doesn't really "teach" anything. It is the absolute absence of any belief in diety/dieties, and for some, absolute absence of belief in the supernatural (although not necessarily the case for all that claim to be atheist).

As far as the atheism that actually teaches active disbelief in god, I do believe that can be a religion of it's own, or it can even lead to a more popular, actual religion.

[edit on 4-9-2008 by scientist]

reply to post by scientist


Hmm, that I can agree with, Atheism to a certain level is belief in not believing the supernatural, as if science cant prove it then it cant exist. Of course scientific knowledge is great and understanding it can only benefit o=in the long run. But it seems now people are suffering from a withdrawal from the cushion of religion and using science as its replacement, explaining the beginning and the end and the guide it sets for living your life, exactly the same as any religion. But this religion only offers a certain level of depth, sure it all begun from a proposed starting place in the universe but it offers no insight into what happened before that, so I cant understand why atheism sells itself as the true and honest way when it hasnt got all the answers for itself, but still people follow these like teachings. It has fundamentally if not structurally turned itself into the religion of the 21st century.

"As far as the atheism that actually teaches active disbelief in god, I do believe that can be a religion of it's own, or it can even lead to a more popular, actual religion. "

Of course atheists will never label themselves as a religion, unless all of them got incredibly dumb and missed all the points by a mile, but as I been saying and as you said yourself. The way it presents itself in modern times is in the same way as any religion, which bends the truth to present itself as the mighty. These may not be an atheists intentions but its the reality and it just makes me think that something new is needed now before this gets out of hand.

Originally posted by Dany_Barking
But why would you argue there is no proof of a God, if there is no counteracting proof.

You might, but you needn't: you simply point out there is no proof.

No proof of fairies, dragons, gnomes, ....

There are a million things I have no reason for believing in.

9

reply to post by Dany_Barking


I agree. Science on it's own is a great tool - but it can also serve as a crutch for people. Then again, just about anything can serve as a crutch, so I never hold it against science. Religion is a different matter though, I tend to hold grudges against religion, even as an abstract concept. It does not seem to serve any purpose other than manifesting some sort of super-ego, which I see atheism tries to constantly deconstruct.

Originally posted by scientist
I agree. Science on it's own is a great tool - but it can also serve as a crutch for people. Then again, just about anything can serve as a crutch, so I never hold it against science. Religion is a different matter though, I tend to hold grudges against religion, even as an abstract concept. It does not seem to serve any purpose other than manifesting some sort of super-ego, which I see atheism tries to constantly deconstruct.

I basically agree, though wonder what on earth science is. What had begun to emerge as 'science' has become so fractured, fragmented, compromised and manipulated that it is mostly farce. Add to it the problem that science is replete with people who want to believe math is science, and play around with utter nonsense like string theory, and it gets pretty ugly (or funny, depending on how you look at it).

Hopefully it's a phase, but I'm over religion, over commercialised science, over academic bs. I won't subscribe to elaborate theories without evidence, and wonder what is left. I wish something solid would emerge. I do think, though, it's in our own hands. That is possibly about all I believe in right now.

9


[edit on 5-9-2008 by 987931]

reply to post by 987931


Well I like that, believing in your own thing is good. Just by taking everything I've learnt and sitting down to think it through, ive came up with a pretty solid view of the world and the only downfall is that my memory is so poor I forget it too soon and am left in a void again . Nothing solid will never really come along, you need to just take certain things at face value, like it is possible that gravity is not the thing holding us to the ground its a theory, but why argue it when we are not floating up into the air. I just think that to move past this, its perhaps time people realized that finding a meaning to life doesnt rest in finding theories and debunking other's, as this would be missing the point entirely.

the funny thing is people would be much happier in life, if we all believed something, even if this something wasnt true, and all agreed in it, than we would all searching for the truth. Off-topic but an amusing thought.

No and atheism is such a stupid thing but most of the time it is made up of very intelligent people or very stupid people. First off c'mon you really dont believe theres a God? Yea when we die nothing happens..

It does seem like atheism is becoming its own religion though. It just seems unreal that a group of people can make a relgion about no religion. Isn't that the most illogical thing you have heard.

Originally posted by Dany_Barking
the funny thing is people would be much happier in life, if we all believed something, even if this something wasnt true, and all agreed in it, than we would all searching for the truth. Off-topic but an amusing thought.

The funniest part is, that's what "reality" is supposed to be for It makes me wonder... If there's a cosmic joke, who's going to be there to laugh when we get to the punchline?