The LHC was a bad idea from the start

strong magnetic fields are generated... remember the manhattan project..

navy debunkt it.. but..........

www.think-aboutit.com...

Ahh who cares about the paranoid masses.. I would love for cern to capture evidence of the higgs boson (God particle), and if they open up a black hole or a wormhole... that is like icing on the cake. Seriously, mankind really needs to push the envelope with science, and space exploration. Too many worry worts around here.

Well, my opinon is that since they are hoping that this has a creation event affect, they could very likely end up with an extreme energy output. Stable? Unstable? If they are wrong about any of their theories, they will only be wrong....once.
I would love to see some good come from this, but I have to say that listening to the oppositions concerns leaves me a bit sketical.

I wont pretend to know what will happen, nor will I assume that they havent done every calculation 3 times. I just hope they are right, cautious and ready for whatever happens.

As to waiting until October to fire it, I wish they would just flip the switch and get it over with. Has anyone seen how cold that thing has to be just to fire once? Sheesh, I didnt know those temps even existed. At minus 275 C, I would think just being in the vacinity of that temp would freeze you instantly.

The largest gathering of physicists in Europe initially rule out the production of dangerous black holes at the Large Hadron Collider (LHC) near Geneva, Switzerland. Their first argument against stable LHC-produced black holes is the fact that scientists almost universally agree that black holes rapidly evaporate, emitting particles called Hawking radiation, named for Stephen Hawking, who proposed the phenomenon and showed why it exists. A microscopic black hole would thus be very unstable, disappearing in the tiniest fraction of a second.

They also remind us (in another argument presented in the past) that collisions with the same power as those to be produced at the LHC-in the trillion electron volt range-happen all the time on Earth, when cosmic rays from deep space (protons with extremely high energies) collide with molecules in the upper atmosphere. The quick, logical conclusion is that such events, if they could produce dangerous, stable black holes, would have already done so.

However, a disconcerting argument with the LHC in Geneva is that it is buried very deep underground, so it does not follow the natural senario of cosmic rays from deep space being filtered out by the upper atmosphere. What will such power produced at the LHC-in the trillion electron volt range-do deep within the Earth? Can it effect the Earth's natural electromagnetic fields? We will find out on September 10, 2008, when the collider is scheduled for a test run. It is set to be fully operational by 2009.

We can compare Earth to a giant electromagnetic motor, a geodynamo, with a rotating molten core producing EMF output. There are "hot spots" strewn along the Earth's surface where higher EMFs are present: tectonic strain fields, volcanically active sites, Bermuda Triangle, etc. Man-made energy grid-works are becoming increasingly prevalent, emitting EMF signals of their own, especially true on the northern hemisphere. Earth's ionosphere is influenced by immense solar and lunar forces. At what point do forces converge on Earth's EMF engine? Can varying resonance make the "Earth engine" shift, shake and sputter? Many scientists firmly believe that Earth is due for another polarity reversal. Will a pole shift bode well with mankind's EMF constructs?

"A magnetic pole reversal may be of significance to the search for clean energy generation and transportation. If earth magnetic anomalies become more frequent or are concentrated in certain areas, we could see disruption of existing electrical grids, even without the dramatic atmosphere expansion and radiation damaging to life and computers." -- Mary-Sue Halliburton

Here are two "doomsday" quatrains from Nostradamus from 16th Century France:
Nostradamus IX-044 Translation [and interpretation]:
Migrate, migrate out of Geneva everyone [Get out of Geneva everyone]
The sky will change from gold to steel [altered ionosphere]
The "contre Raypoz" [countercurrent EMF] will exterminate everyone,
Before the event [day of advent] the sky will show signs.

Nostradamus II-46 Translation [and interpretation]:
After big human distress, the worst follows,
The big engine [Earth's EMF] renews the centuries [temporal impact],
There will be floods and all sorts of afflictions,
In the sky will be seen, fire running and big sparkle.

These particle accelerators & colliders are being constructed all over Europe and North America. They generate massive amounts of ENERGY from deep beneath the Earth. The LHC in Geneva is the biggest one yet. They are given the green light, the word is Go! The switch is being flipped ON...

I agree with this thread 100 percent. Why risk it? I don't really give a crap how the universe was made. I care about bills, work, and my family. Other than that...WHY IN THE HELL DID THEY BUILD THIS THING? At some point we all just need to be happy and enjoy what we have. They should have spent the money on this project to fund SETI. IMHO

Originally posted by TXMACHINEGUNDLR
I agree with this thread 100 percent. Why risk it? I don't really give a crap how the universe was made. I care about bills, work, and my family. Other than that...WHY IN THE HELL DID THEY BUILD THIS THING? At some point we all just need to be happy and enjoy what we have. They should have spent the money on this project to fund SETI. IMHO

SETI is futile, and who knows what awesome new technology we might get from these experiments.

I think its a bit silly to say they shouldn't risk it. Over the course of human life, alot of dangerous experiments have been conducted (granted, nothing on a global scale, but still human lives nonetheless), wich make the life you live the way it is. Should people back then have said "Don't do it" as well?

I know its in human nature to fear the unknown, but I think its a great experiment.

You are all fearmongering way too much. If these black holes that COULD be formed are really dangerous, we would have been sucked up by one a long time ago.

I can't comment on the dangers, but I agree that it is not that good of an idea. It seems like if it takes this much energy, precision, and effort to even detect these particles, how practical would it be to try predicting and manipulating them?

Does proving the existence of exotic particles just lead to more accurate hypotheses about how the universe works, or is does the proof have immediate practical applications?

It sounds like most of the people against it are of the religious nature in that they believe in some type of "forbidden knowledge" or "forbidden fruit." The real problem is not that "they" don't understand what they're doing. It's that YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND and you redirect your ignorance into waving your paranoid hands in the air while screaming "STOP IT!"

Give me a break. Once the tests have been run, and you seen that the Earth is fine, all you'll be able to say is, "Well, IT COULD HAVE destroyed the world!" to save face, as if the phrase makes any sense at all.

But, don't be saddened! We'll be left with a new ignorance filled phrase - an upgrade of "Detonating an H-BOMB is going to burn up the Atmosphere!" - and, you'll STILL HAVE AN EXCUSE to act like a Luddite, even after the LHC does not blow up the planet!

The Super Large Hadron Collider (SLHC) is a proposed upgrade to the Large Hadron Collider to be made around 2012

en.wikipedia.org...

Hahahahah. 2012... It's too funny. Put on your tinfoil hats everybody!

reply to post by TXMACHINEGUNDLR

Maybe something like this is why there is an asteroid belt outside of Mars' orbit, and possibly some ruins on Mars' surface, at least on one side.-
Some have speculated about the existence of planet Phaeton, a sister planet to Mars. While there doesn't appear to be enough debris in the asteroid field to make up a planet, this could be caused by the complete blowing to smitherines of planet Phaeton. Possibly the asteroid that hit the Yucatan penninsula was from Phaeton.
Here's another thought, could the Tegunsta event in Siberia have been caused by one of these tiny black holes interacting with the atmosphere.

Originally posted by TXMACHINEGUNDLR
I agree with this thread 100 percent. Why risk it? I don't really give a crap how the universe was made. I care about bills, work, and my family. Other than that...WHY IN THE HELL DID THEY BUILD THIS THING? At some point we all just need to be happy and enjoy what we have. They should have spent the money on this project to fund SETI. IMHO

I understand your point, but you need to remember one thing: without such experimentation and investment and pushing of boundaries we would not be talking like this now. Every piece of technology upon which you depend: your car that takes you to work, your computer at work on which you carry out your tasks in return for your wages, your TV and games console and internet and all the electronic goods that your family depend on - all these things would not exist without daring experiments in physics.

The same arguments were levelled at the first generations of particle colliders - they might destroy the world! And to the physicists who created the nuclear bomb - what if they set off a constant chain reaction?! But they didn't. And risks such as those (and many others, it should be noted) all led to technological advancements including (but not limited to) nuclear power, transistors, microchips, consumer electronics, the internet, and so on and so on.

When you think of the "why" of the LHC you should bear in mind that, yes, for the unbelievably intelligent physicists involved their goal is to find the Higgs boson, and to try to understand just a little bit more about our universe. But aside from their goals, the potential technological developments that come out of these experiments are far more important.

Physicists confirming the existence of strange and mystical particles will have no benefit to you, I agree. But if they discover something about quantum physics that leads to the first, feasible and affordable quantum computers? Or if they discover things that help lead to unlimited power sources and therefore allow every single human on the planet to have access to electricity, heat, light, and the ability to cook hot food for almost nothing? And if this power source meant that we would no longer have to spend money fuelling our cars, or polluting the environment? And that we would no longer find ourselves mired in geo-political wars based solely on preserving oil supplies?

Personally, I think given the choice, if this facility has the potential to change the way every human lives their life for the better, via a massive and unprecendented shift in the direction of the world's socio-economic and therefore geo-political structure, I'm all for it. Because, at the end of the day, either it will a) have benefits such as above, b) it won't have those benefits and we will all end up nuking ourselves to death anyway over oil, or c) we will all be dead within seconds and be none the wiser.

I don't see the bad side here.

And one last point to make to hopefully reassure you all is that the energy released in the collisions will be less than or maybe at best equal to the energy released by cosmic ray impacts. And these occur every day. And I can guess that you probably haven't been swallowed up by a black hole yet. Because there is not enough energy to produce a stable, threat-level black hole.

But I tend to agree with many posters here: people frantically running around in circles shouting that we're all doomed need to make sure that they understand fully what the LHC is, how it works, and what it does, before panicking themselves into a state. Not because it is annoying on the forums, but because you are worrying where you need not. And anyway, you risk looking pretty dumb when physicists who frequesnt ATS point out your knowledge gaps.

[edit on 2-9-2008 by dogsounds]

I cannot believe how many completely rude posts I have read on this thread... All I have read, has been ego's flying about how "ignorant" someone is. I believe that courtesy is a rule of ATS?

I apologize as I will not go off topic again.. I believe this experiment to be of the highest importance. I do not know what MIGHT be the outcome of this experiment, so I cannot be so quick to dismiss it. But the what we could learn from this, could change all of mankind. We cannot let fear get the best of us, when this was going to happen anyway...With or without us knowing.

^ ^ Sorry for my first response, but I get very upset, when I see anyone get lashed out at personally when they give their opinion.

Originally posted by Selket
I cannot believe how many completely rude posts I have read on this thread... All I have read, has been ego's flying about how "ignorant" someone is. I believe that courtesy is a rule of ATS?

Even though the term ignorant is usually taken as derogatory or a synonym of stupid it really isn't.

On ATS it is usually applied in this sense:

uneducated in the fundamentals of a given art or branch of learning; lacking knowledge of a specific field; "she is ignorant of quantum mechanics"; "he is musically illiterate"

There is nothing wrong with being ignorant of the function of the LHC and its purpose. It is, after all a complex machine which will be used to study things that most laypersons know little about. Allowing that ignorance to create and spread fear is stupid.

You should note the slogan of ATS.

Originally posted by umbr45
Once again I do not claim to know anything.

But of the scientists know EVERYTHING they already know what will happen. As long as they don't there is still an unknown element.

WARNING: MAY "SOUND" LIKE A STRAW MAN ARGUMENT. I APOLOGIZE IF IT IS.

So by you're logic, EVERYTHING we've ever done as human beings, we've either known what we were doing and what the result would be or that anything could happen as a result of us not knowing what would happen. Do you know how many damn experiments have been done without us knowing the result? BILLIONS UPON TRILLIONS.
By your logic, if we don't know what will happen, we shouldn't ever do it.

PS: Aw, man. Tunedbeats said what I said. Whatever.

[edit on 2-9-2008 by flyindevil]

Maybe they will open up a STARGATE, of some sort, to travel to vast planets and civilizations.

But with the our luck it will open THE MIST, and then we'll have big creepy crawlies from another dimension running around.

I say go for broke. I would risk it all for the promise of some amazing discoveries. So what if we all die? We all die someday. I may get to go out with a bang and say I was among the final generation. I'm sick of this meager existence anyway. Either we all die, or we leap forward. Either way, I'm ok with it.

You really have to be paranoid if you think the LHC will "destroy the world". Scientists from all over world are like little childs before Christmas Eve when they talk about it, and have already calculated any possible threats/outcomes. Also most the LHC does is proving/denying already existing theories.
Take a look at the following predictions about "what the LHC will find", I think to win the lottery on Mon., get stroken by a lightning Tue. and get hit by an asteroid Wed. is way more likely than the LHC will create a stable black hole, which itself is less likely than it finds God.

What will the LHC find?

Content from external source: (What's that tag again?!)
The Higgs Boson: 95%.
Supersymmetry: 60%.
Large Extra Dimensions: 1%.
Warped Extra Dimensions: 10%.
Black Holes: 0.1%.
Stable Black Holes That Eat Up the Earth, Destroying All Living Organisms in the Process: 10-25%.
Evidence for or against String Theory: 0.5%.
Dark Matter: 15%.
Dark Energy: 0.1%.
Strong Dynamics: 5%.
New Massive Gauge Bosons: 2%.
New Quarks or Leptons: 2%.
Preons: 1%.
Mysterious Missing Energy: 15%.
Baryon-Number Violation: 0.2%.
Magnetic Monopoles, Strangelets, Q-Balls, Solitons: 1%.
Unparticles: 0.5%.
Antimatter: 100%. (We detected antimatter long ago! In 1932, to be precise. It is no longer a mystery.)
God: 10-20%. More likely than stable black holes, but still a long shot.
Something that Has Been Predicted, but Not Listed Above: 2%.
Absolutely Nothing: 3%.

Source: CosmicVariance


Greetings,

S.

I know all you science geeks in this thread will call me crazy, but my concern is not so much that a black hole might grow and swallow the Earth, but that -- as some fringe scientists believe -- black holes may be PORTALS that could let things in we don't want here.

I'm talking about malevolent beings from other dimensions, using black holes as an entry way to access our dimension. If that were possible, we could experience, literally, hell on earth. I think there are fates worse than death...

A couple things to keep in mind:

1. The LHC has been reviewed by many indepedent scientists (not on CERN's payroll) and they've given it the green light.

2. If the big bang theory is true, there were all kinds of super-heated explosions and light-speed particle collisions going on when the universe started. If the universe's own creation didn't destroy the universe, I can't see how the LHC is any threat.

The LHC experiment has only collected a handful of opposing scientists, the rest are highly excited. I myself have posted in several threads about this and i will say again, i am quite happy to risk my life to try this experiment. If it suceeds, and teh maths say it will do so safely, then we will learn so much it's amazing. Truly a mind blowing experiment.

Many thigns could be discovered, some scientists have talked about understanding the big bangs beginnings, the very moment of creation. Others have talked about the possibility of sci-fi concepts like anti-gravity! Whilst these are the edge of the table claims, they are however worth looking into.

I'm sorry but throughout modern history it's been said experiments would end the world and yet we took those risks. It's what defines humanity i think, the thirst for knowledge. I commend these scientists, they have worked out to the best of their ability the safety concerns and it seems the probability of trouble is rather low.

I will happily risk my life for further knowledge of our universe (the mathmatically small risk it is) and i don't quite understand those who wouldn't. If it all goes wrong and a black hole destroys us, well in all truth i won't be that unhappy. I'll have learnt that black holes exist.

Um umbra...

Since ∞ + 2 = ∞ and ∞ - 4 = ∞
Then ∞ + 2 = ∞ - 4
So 2 + 4 = 0
Then 2 = -4

Lol, so not only do you not know anything about particle physics you know nothing of math!

Infinity is not a number, it is a concept, an idea, a range of numbers. And thus cannot be multiplied as though it was a single definate variable. Can you tell me what number infinity is?

Ok so anyway, I really don't care, it is for the advancement of mankind, and please you people are making a HuGE deal out of this. But of course day by day we lose freedoms and money and our very humanity. But no its more important to worry about something you shouldn't be.

If anyone really is worried, stop posting and spend time with your families, but for real, because if I was worried that would be what I do...