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Muslim's stop publication of book about the life of Muhammad's child bride

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posted on Aug, 10 2008 @ 02:51 PM
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Originally posted by neformore


Some Muslims... indeed, some have to be the bad guys!


Just as some christians, and buddhists, and and church of the flying spaghetti monsterists have to be bad guys also.


Every legion that rules must have its warriors and assassins.

I suppose we can agree to disagree, but I honestly believe that anyone who is familiar with Muslim reactions to such things as what is being discussed in this thread would have serious reservations about being involved openly with the publication of something like this.



posted on Aug, 10 2008 @ 07:41 PM
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reply to post by The_Alarmist2012
 


I honestly believe that anyone who is familiar with Muslim reactions to such things as what is being discussed in this thread would have serious reservations about being involved openly with the publication of something like this.



Exactly, and in order to secure our liberties, we have to stop these Muslim reactionary threats of terrorism from being used to eliminate our freedom of speech. The people who pulled this charade, strong arming a Publishing house by making veiled threats should all be punished by the law, and it should be made to be well known that this type of activity will not be tolerated.



posted on Aug, 10 2008 @ 08:56 PM
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reply to post by neformore
 


Random house made the decision on "advice"

Yeah, the advice that if they publish this book somebody might blow up their place of business and kill off some of their employees. It is called extortion, and it is illegal.

"See - I've read all the rhetoric, but I can't find an article anywhere that suggests that muslims stopped this book from being published."

You probably should have read the Wall Street Journal article that I linked to at the beginning of the thread. There you can read about Mr. Amanullah, who spread the word to the Muslim online word to get the offensive going after hearing from Ms. Spellberg, and Ali Hemani's seven-point strategy, which I pointed out on the first page of the thread. Maybe you shouldn't criticize others on the thread when you have not read it yourself. Being that this was talked about in the article, most likely the employees of Random House had been warned of these ongoing activities.

I haven't heard anywhere in the news about Mr. Amanullah making a public statement that these threats were not real, or any of the other Muslim groups speaking out against this violation of this woman's civil rights. All we have are Ms Spielberg's poor representation of herself, refusal to admit what she did was wrong, and retort of the violent threats. Seems like the Muslim reporter who wrote this article is a lone voice among radicals.

Maybe you could provide an article where the Muslim community is speaking out against these violent threats.



posted on Aug, 10 2008 @ 11:38 PM
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Originally posted by The_Alarmist2012
So, do you deny that the prophet had a child bride based on this?


From Bukhari vol. 7, #65:
"Narrated Aisha that the prophet wrote the marriage contract with her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old. Hisham said: "I have been informed that Aisha remained with the prophet for nine years (i.e. till his death).""

From the Hadith of Sahih Muslim, Vol 2, #3309
Aisha reported: Allah’s Messenger married me when I was six years old, and I was admitted to his house at the age of nine….

From Abu Dawud, Vol. 2, #2116:
"Aisha said, "The Apostle of Allah married me when I was seven years old." (The narrator Sulaiman said: "Or six years."). "He had intercourse with me when I was 9 years old."

From Tabari, volume 9, page 131
"Then the men and women got up and left. The Messenger of God consummated his marriage with me in my house when I was nine years old. Neither a camel nor a sheep was slaughtered on behalf of me".




it is based on research and historical documents...

I never denied anything
let's not assume now shall we. OK don't just examine one source please, there are many other historic evidence which proves Aisha was 19-20 at the time of her marriage



The well-known historian and scholar ‘Allama ‘Imad-ud-Deen Ibn Katheer writes in his 'Al-Badayah' about Sayedah Asma’ daughter of Hazrat Abu Bakr’ (Allah be pleased with him) (and we hope Maulana Syed Abul Ala Maududi must have seen it as he referred to 'Al-Badaya' in his article): Asma’ died in 73 A.H. at the age of 100 years. She was ten years older than her sister ‘Aishah. Now according to this report ‘Asma’ would have been 27-28 years old at the time of Hijrah and since she was ten years older than Sayedah ‘Aishah, therefore the age of Sayedah ‘Aishah would have been 17 or 18 years at the time of Hijrah. Accordingly, her birth falls about four or five years before the Call, and her age at the time of the consummation of marriage in 2 A.H. will work out to 19-20 years.



The author of the well-known collection of Hadith 'Mishkat al-Masabeeh', Sheikh Waheed-ud-Deen, writes in his well-known book 'Ahmal fi Asma’ al-Rijjal':

"At the time of the consummation of her marriage Sayedah ‘Aishah’s age was not less than 18-19 years."




Again, do you deny that the prophet had a child bride?

A truth veiled in a novel does not make it untrue, and more importantly if it is just a novel, then why would Muslims be so enraged over it?
[edit on 10-8-2008 by The_Alarmist2012]

The novel is written by a writer who has no clue of the Islamic history, as I previousely posted a quote from Amazon shows how uncredible she is, you get what I'm saying


[edit on 113131p://31b8 by Ownification]

[edit on 113131p://31b8 by Ownification]



posted on Aug, 10 2008 @ 11:50 PM
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reply to post by poet1b
 


Soft child pornography even in the form of a novel is not a good idea, there is a reason why child pornography is banned


If she is so sophisticated as you put her to be than why doesn't she release a book which is not based on her wild fantasies, how hard is that. There are many critics of Islam, an example is www.answering-islam.com, no body has threaten them, they are still running and very famouse amongst Christians. Muslims instead of threatening them by acts of violence, have created a counter website which refutes all their accusations, I think it's called answering christianity, type it in Google and have fun.

It's unfortunate that no Muslim ever rights about the Christian faith which preaches that god inpregnated Marry at the age of 12-13, maybe I should right a novel and use some of my fantasies to insite deep hate which in result will produce nothing but violence. Maybe I'll right about how God molested Marry at the age 13, and go in to detail of thy molested her, but it's just a novel based on a true story
a novel based on true story lol

[edit on 113131p://31b8 by Ownification]



posted on Aug, 11 2008 @ 04:22 AM
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reply to post by Ownification
 


Gee, who am I going to believe, what the woman whose life we are talking about wrote about her own life, or some historian writing long after the incident, with obvious motives for trying to change the age of the child bribe. No doubt you will choose what you want, but few will buy this ruse. Considering how clouded your judgement is on the issue, maybe the truth is that the woman who wrote the novel knows far more about the subject than you do. Your relationship with the subject might be clouding your judgement.



posted on Aug, 11 2008 @ 04:32 AM
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reply to post by Ownification
 


Well, the quote in the article I read doesn't sound like pornography, "felt like a scorpion's sting" doesn't sound erotic to me, to a sadist maybe. I doubt if Random House would be publishing this book if it was trashy soft porn.

It has already been established that these are not her wild fantasies, the historical record points to their accuracy.

Is the Christian website threatening to blow up buildings in protest? Write a book if you like, good luck, maybe it will sell. The real question is, can you tell the difference between a thirteen year old girl and a nine year old? Cause there is a huge difference. Extremely few cultures would approve of a middle aged man having intercourse with a 9 year old. It seems that you refuse to see the standards that most of the world has set.

Tell me, do you think that it is right that Random house should be threatened with violence for publishing such a book. Are you willing to denounce this womans threats? Can you show us your moderate side?



posted on Aug, 11 2008 @ 05:06 AM
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Originally posted by poet1b
You probably should have read the Wall Street Journal article that I linked to at the beginning of the thread.


Ah but I did, which is why I checked the other version of it that I'd seen on the BBC website.

Did you read it? it says this



This time, the instigator of the trouble wasn't a radical Muslim cleric, but an American academic. In April, looking for endorsements, Random House sent galleys to writers and scholars, including Denise Spellberg, an associate professor of Islamic history at the University of Texas in Austin


Denise Spellberg deliberately seeded this because she didn't like the book.

The guy she seeded it to had never read the book, and went off what she told him.

The further reaction came from people who had never seen the book, didn't know what was in it and assumed.

But the person that started the game of Chinese whispers was Denise Spellberg, acting improperly.

Now who's fault is that?



posted on Aug, 11 2008 @ 05:26 AM
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Originally posted by Brothers
Well if the Muslims are so angry about Muhammad's child bride then why is it that they still have it in their own books. Surely its there and we don't hear anything about banning those books. Its written in Arabic and so its translated into any language to read what it says. So it is written so let it be read.


yep, there is no logic to it, that is what happens when muslims act like kids and are treated like kids by apologists and dhimis in the west



posted on Aug, 11 2008 @ 08:40 AM
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Originally posted by poet1b
reply to post by Ownification
 


Gee, who am I going to believe, what the woman whose life we are talking about wrote about her own life, or some historian writing long after the incident, with obvious motives for trying to change the age of the child bribe. No doubt you will choose what you want, but few will buy this ruse. Considering how clouded your judgement is on the issue, maybe the truth is that the woman who wrote the novel knows far more about the subject than you do. Your relationship with the subject might be clouding your judgement.



Agreed, Islamic sources document well that the marriage was consumated when she was 9. It's the Muslim Apologists who claim otherwise.

Don't try to muddy the issue, apologists, just accept he had sex with a child, dammit.



posted on Aug, 11 2008 @ 09:21 AM
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reply to post by neformore
 


It may not have been Muslims that caused this cancellation. However, it is the actions of many muslims in the past that allowed Ms. Spellberg to get away with the fear mongering and inuendo that is the end result. Some people might fear reprisals to easily but it seems to be justified in some cases. This publisher has lost a great deal of respect by many and I am one of them. The history of publishing is not served well by they're actions!

Zindo



posted on Aug, 11 2008 @ 01:09 PM
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reply to post by neformore
 


Good point, and I agree, Denise Spellberg is definitely the instigator, but that doesn't excuse her cohort, Shahed Amanullah, for immediately spreading the news to the Muslim world. Then quickly, Ali Hemani's seven-point strategy emerged. It is hardly an easy thing to overlook. At some point in time someone else in the Muslim community needs to say something in the direction that they have no intention of undermining freedom of speech, but I haven't seen any evidence of this.

I would really like to see what is in Ali Hemani's seven-point strategy. Does it call for veiled threats?

If we are ever going to start standing up and defending ourselves in the west, now would be a good time to start. The Muslim community should make a statement that they do not desire to harm anyone should this book be published. Now would be a good time to start a dialogue towards peaceful relationships. There will only be so many of these times to take advantage of.



posted on Aug, 11 2008 @ 01:54 PM
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Someone needs to publish this. All the pro or anti muslim arguements aside. Put it out there, if the muslim community accepts it for what it is, fine. No harm no foul, if members of the muslim community blow random house off the map, we all know exactly where they stand. But to hide behind a wall of proposed terror is foolish and wrong.

I bet if I wanted to put a book out on Christ being married and her body being forgotten about and locked away it would get published.....oh, wait.



posted on Aug, 11 2008 @ 07:23 PM
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HI
The problem is that this book is based on 5% of historical views.....meaning that most of the historians believe that she was 23 when she got maried with the prophet, and some belive she was 19, only a few have said she was 9.
Now based on this fact why would you write a novel on a historical piont of view that has 5% credibility .

It just does not make sense
unless you have an hidden ajenda !!!



posted on Aug, 11 2008 @ 08:54 PM
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reply to post by Marco4107
 


Hmm, really, how so? Seems to me that 95% of the historical evidence points out that she was 9 years old when Muhammad consummated the marriage, based on this being of her own account. Add this with the fact that the Muslim world to this day allows child brides, seems your claim is not credible.



posted on Aug, 11 2008 @ 09:13 PM
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Originally posted by poet1b
reply to post by Ownification
 


Gee, who am I going to believe, what the woman whose life we are talking about wrote about her own life, or some historian writing long after the incident, with obvious motives for trying to change the age of the child bribe. No doubt you will choose what you want, but few will buy this ruse. Considering how clouded your judgement is on the issue, maybe the truth is that the woman who wrote the novel knows far more about the subject than you do. Your relationship with the subject might be clouding your judgement.

hehe me and you again, I always have interesting discussion with you. Let's have fun and not get personal


Firstly when we examine history, every historian knows that we shouldn't just rely on a quote, every historian knows that a quote can be confirmed by different means. Every quote does not necessarily exist as its original form. That is the exact reason why historians look at other sources to prove the authenticity and accuracy of a quote. I didn't just post the famouse Hadith collector's quote, I also posted how historical evidence proves that her age adds up to 18-19. (Historical evidence) VS a (quote) and you are asking which one we should believe? They both have the same credibility.

Now for you to understand this topic you need learn the way Hadith works. There are many narators, Muslims don't accept a Hadith which is only narated by one individual because of it's credibility. No matter who that narator maybe does not change the rules on the ground. The Hadith collectors check the personality, background, and physical health of every narrator. If they saw any uncertainties they would not accept their narrations and would not add it in their books. Now that you know how the Hadiths were collected let's move on.

Now most of the narration we are talking about here were reported by Hashim bin `Urwah on the authority of his father. He was the only one who narrated this issue, which shows the credibility of this Hadith. Secondly other Hadith collectors have mentioned that Hashim's narratives are not acceptable after he moved to Iraq, which once again crumbles the credibiligy of this Hadith which you are mentioning.


Tehzibu'l-tehzib, one of the most well known books on the life and the reliability of the narrators of the traditions of the Prophet (pbuh) report that according to Yaqub ibn Shaibah:

" He [Hisham] is highly reliable, his narratives are acceptable, except what he narrated after moving over to Iraq." (REF: Tehzi'bu'l-tehzi'b, Ibn Hajar Al-`asqala'ni, Dar Ihya al-turath al-Islami, 15th century. Vol 11, p. 50).

It further states that Malik ibn Anas objected on those narratives of Hisham which were reported through people of Iraq:

“I have been told that Malik [ibn Anas] objected on those narratives of Hisham which were reported through people of Iraq." (REF: Tehzi'b u'l-tehzi'b, Ibn Hajar Al-`asqala'ni, Dar Ihya al-turath al-Islami, Vol.11, p. 50)

Mizanu'l-ai`tidal, another book on the life sketches of the narrators of the traditions of the Prophet (pbuh) reports:

"When he was old, Hisham's memory suffered quite badly" (REF: Mizanu'l-ai`tidal, Al-Zahbi, Al-Maktabatu'l-athriyyah, Sheikhupura, Pakistan, Vol. 4, p. 301)

Now that we have that over with let's get to the historic evidence.

Historic evidence: Aisha's age in relation to Asma's age (Asma was Aisha's sister)

According to Ibn Kathir:
"She [Asma] was elder to her sister [Ayesha] by ten years". (REF: Al-Bidayah wa'l-nihayah, Ibn Kathir, Vol. 8, p. 371, Dar al-fikr al-`arabi, Al-jizah, 1933)

According to Ibn Kathir:

"She [Asma] saw the killing of her son during that year [i.e. 73 AH], as we have already mentioned, and five days later she herself died. According to other narratives she died not after five days but ten or twenty or a few days over twenty or a hundred days later. The most well known narrative is that of hundred days later. At the time of her death, she was 100 years old." (REF: Al-Bidayah wa'l-nihayah, Ibn Kathir (died 1333), Vol. 8, Pg. 372, Dar al-fikr al-`arabi, Al-jizah, 1933)

According to Ibn Hajar Al-Asqalani:

"She [Asma (ra)] lived a hundred years and died in 73 or 74 AH." (REF: Taqribu'l-tehzib, Ibn Hajar Al-Asqalani, Pg 654, Arabic, Bab fi'l-nisa', al-harfu'l-alif, Lucknow)

According to the above historians Asma was 10 years older than Aisha, right! Asma was 70 years old in 73 AH therefore Asma's age at the time of Hijrah equals 27 to 28. Now as we established Aisha was 10 years younger than Asma therefore Aisha's age at the time Hijrah would equal to (27 or 28 - 10 = 17 or 18). Now Aisha moved to Muhammad's house 1 or 2 years after Hijrah, that means that Aishas age when she and Muhammad moved in together was approximately 19 - 20.

This is just one historical example which proves the age of Aisha when she and Mohmmad moved together. Here is some important dates in hisory of Islam which you can use to do the math if you check out some more Hadiths.


Jahilliyya Before Revelation

First Revelation 610 CE

Abu Baker accepts Islam 610 CE

Public preaching 613 CE

Emigration to Abyssenia 615 CE

Umar bin al Khattab accept Islam 616 CE

Generally accepted betrothal of Ayesha 620 CE
Hijarah 622 CE

Generally accepted year of Ayesha living
with Prophet 623 or 624CE (1 or 2 AH)



posted on Aug, 11 2008 @ 09:42 PM
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Originally posted by poet1b
reply to post by Ownification
 


Well, the quote in the article I read doesn't sound like pornography, "felt like a scorpion's sting" doesn't sound erotic to me, to a sadist maybe. I doubt if Random House would be publishing this book if it was trashy soft porn.

It has already been established that these are not her wild fantasies, the historical record points to their accuracy.

Is the Christian website threatening to blow up buildings in protest? Write a book if you like, good luck, maybe it will sell. The real question is, can you tell the difference between a thirteen year old girl and a nine year old? Cause there is a huge difference. Extremely few cultures would approve of a middle aged man having intercourse with a 9 year old. It seems that you refuse to see the standards that most of the world has set.

Tell me, do you think that it is right that Random house should be threatened with violence for publishing such a book. Are you willing to denounce this womans threats? Can you show us your moderate side?

It seems like you didn't get what I meant by saying "her wild fantasies". Let me explain again. What I meant was that although half of the novel is taken from historical record she has added her own little flavour, does that make it alittle clearer for you. It's like FOX news, half taken from news reports and the rest is straight speculations. The difference between this little novel and FOX news is that she doesn't speculate based on historical data, she adds more of her own fantasies in to it which I call extra flavour, like umm curry with extra chillie sauce
hot.

Anyways if you are going to write a book about history, than you should concentrate on history, don't get mixed up with the write side of your brain. I mean let's look at certain countries in europe, historians get arrested for creating such books as she has written, mixing the truth with her own ideas of what happened(her fantasies) and claiming it's the truth. Denying the holocaust, takin as an example.

umm I don't see much difference in 13 and 9 year old, they both can't make decisions for their own sakes. Their brains are still immature. What's the difference you explain, is it the physical size? Is it maybe in any way the brain size? explain
I do know that many culture won't accept such a marriage today but you got to be honest now, the Jews married 1 year olds back then so let's not talk about cultures. Today and yesterday, two different times. Maybe you should ask your granny how old she got married


I'm not going to defend a marriage established at the age of nine, because I never claimed there ever was one between Aisha and Mohammad.

Is it alright to threaten her with violence, no it's not. I don't believe such an act would solve anything, there are many other ways of stoping her from publishing false history. I'm not going to defend those Muslims who do such an act, they can come here and defend themselves. As for freedom of speech, well your own state says that there is a line between freedom of speech and hate speech. If there is a freedom of speech which you would like world wide than you should also accept hate speech.

I'll somehow get the book for you and we will see if it is soft child pornography or not. We got to read it first right !



posted on Aug, 12 2008 @ 04:59 AM
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reply to post by Ownification
 


Well, according to others, there are numerous Hadith that report the marriage toook place when the girl was very young.

THE HADITH OF SAHIH BUKHARI, THE HADITH OF SAHIH MUSLIM VOLUME 2, #3309, THE HADITH OF THE SUNAN OF ABU DAWUD

FROM THE HISTORY OF TABARI Tabari wrote the most authentic Islamic history. It covers 39 volumes. Tabari was one of the greatest Islamic scholars and the greatest Islamic Historian. From Tabari, volume 7, page7: "....my marriage (to Muhammad) was consummated when I was nine....."

www.exmuslim.com...



posted on Aug, 12 2008 @ 05:37 AM
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reply to post by Ownification
 


So, it really is a matter of opinion of whether or not this is false history. Still, how can you say this novel is hate speech?

When you say "I'm not going to defend those Muslims who do such an act, they can come here and defend themselves." What exactly do you mean? As a Muslim, you don't feel that you should speak out against Muslims who feel that they have a right to violate the laws of the country in which they live by threatening those who they disagree with?

Do you think this should be the attititude we should take in the west?

From the way conversations are going on the internet, things will get much worse before they get better. There is a strong backlash coming, and the only way it is going to be be stopped is with frank and honest discussion, but that doesn't look like it is going to happen.



posted on Aug, 12 2008 @ 05:58 AM
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Originally posted by poet1b
www.exmuslim.com...


You need to consider the sources of your information.

I wouldn't say that one presents a fair and unbiased argument.




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