I have been a Christian all my life...

reply to post by TheB1ueSoldier



No, no no...it's the way he presented his opinion.

It's like me punching you in the nose, kicking you in the nether regions and stomping on your foot...then saying sorry if this gives you any pain it wasn't my intention. lol

As far as his (or your) opinion about God well...I know the truth, I am VERY secure in my faith. Someones negative opinion about what I know to be true doesn't hurt or anger me...no offense but it doesn't.

I just found the way he presented his opinion to be kinda laughable....like the "disclaimer" at the end somehow neutralizes the hateful and malicious tone of the post.





[edit on 7/23/2008 by kinglizard]

reply to post by TheB1ueSoldier

Why don't you actually provide an argument instead of relying in unfalsifiable statements? "God is, you just do not know about it". That's an incredibly ignorant and nonconstructive thing to say.

Because he asked an unanswerable question.
"How does a good God allow bad things to happen to good people?"
If I had the answer, I would not be on this forum and would be writing Best Sellers.
What my answer says is that if you get involved, at a personal level, you can see how God operates, in an anecdotal way.
God is, doing things.
If you look at religion from a distance, you will find it rather difficult to have your questions answered.

reply to post by jmdewey60

Because he asked an unanswerable question.
"How does a good God allow bad things to happen to good people?"

jmdewey60, this question is not so much "unanswerable" as you'd think.

The question itself is "untruthful".

In other words, the question sets up an impossible answer, and these...questions like these are the foolish questions of:

Titus 3:9 But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain.

The 'question' posed to you, jmdewey60 (and other readers) is a 'set up'. It is a foolish question. The answer is obvious, but any answer is contrary and DENIES the sovereignty and holiness of God.

OF COURSE a 'good god' wouldn't allow anything 'bad' to happen to this (fictional) god's people!...for if he DID...he wouldn't be GOOD anymore, would he?

Here is the better question:

"Why does God even care about us? Were nothing...we're SO FAR removed from His Holiness...why should he even CARE (about us...humans)?"

Or, put better,

Psalm 8:4 What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him?

A man of God sees God's handiwork everywhere, yet without seeing 'Him'.

The prior verse to the above:
Psalm 8:3 When I consider thy heavens, the work of thy fingers, the moon and the stars, which thou hast ordained;

Those who look up to the heavens and yell (at God), "You SUCK, GOD! I HATE this earth...this life...this...everything...", aren't quite atheists, rather they are being quite honest with what they SEE around them.

Please consider Sumatra? Circa January 2005?

What "natural man" could have walked through the western villages weeks AFTER the tsunami that hit there in 2004...and was able to say (loudly), "God is GREAT!"? Instead, that man would probably say, "Where were YOU, God, when this happened?"

There was death...
And a stink of dead bodies...
And dead CHILDREN...
And dead BABIES!

Do the 'innocent' ever perish like this? Do we have ANY evidence in the Bible that the 'innocent' EVER perished (in UNEXPECTED tragedy) at the hand of God?

Please consider:
Job 2:6 And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, he is in thine hand; but save his life.

God did NOT allow Satan to kill Job.

But what about the natural man that walked through the stench of dead bodies in Sumatra? Would this man, in his natural state, look around and see God? No, for:

1 Cor 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

So the natural man makes up (foolish) questions that makes God (at best) impotent, or at worst, indifferent to 'innocence'.

One could answer the (foolish) question either way and ALWAYS be wrong!

Again, the question is a 'set-up' and presumes that there is a "good god" (as opposed to a "HOLY God"), further it presumes that there are some who are 'innocent' in our eyes (not God's) when tragedy strikes. But God said:

Psalm 91:9-10 Because thou hast made the LORD,which is my refuge, even the most High, thy habitation;
10 There shall no evil befall thee, neither shall any plague come nigh thy dwelling.

Verse 9 starts with "because" and I think that is the best insurance in the universe.

To the OP: Bravo! Bravo, sir! You have done something quite brave and remarkable despite suffering under the delusion of Christianity for so long. Applying sceptical and reasonable thinking to your life might do you wonders and ensure you a mentally healthy existence in years to come. I applaud you for your efforts and I must say I agree wholeheartedly with your conclusions.

Christians still infected with this mental disorder of blind faith will try to explain away what you’ve summarized, but do not be tricked by their simpleton minds and ideals.

Originally posted by SilentGem
To the OP: Bravo! Bravo, sir! You have done something quite brave and remarkable despite suffering under the delusion of Christianity for so long. Applying sceptical and reasonable thinking to your life might do you wonders and ensure you a mentally healthy existence in years to come. I applaud you for your efforts and I must say I agree wholeheartedly with your conclusions.

Christians still infected with this mental disorder of blind faith will try to explain away what you’ve summarized, but do not be tricked by their simpleton minds and ideals.

I still think there is a creator.. Maybe its my human mindset. I just cant figure out "if" there was a big bang.. or whatever method you think created the earth... well where the hell did all of the energy and matter come from BEFORE the big bang. It cant just bang out of no where. If energy is constantly being consumed by the universe and you cannot create NEW energy... Well then where the hell did all this energy come from and what was here before it. Maybe we are a computer program, maybe we are the dream of a creature. Maybe we are an atom in another "world" I dont know. But the problem seems to be Creationists and Evolutionists like to fight each other when neither side has a clue as to what is going on. None of us do.

Fun to think about though. I must admit it is unsettling to suddenly realize the religion you were taught all of your life is... well the bible is horrible. What it says we should do to people. The ONLY way todays Christians (me included) can stomach it seems to be to change it to our own liking and then follow that. If you read it and take it at its word we should all be doing bad things to each other and ourselves.

[edit on 24-7-2008 by shug7272]

Originally posted by shug7272I still think there is a creator.. Maybe its my human mindset. I just cant figure out "if" there was a big bang.. or whatever method you think created the earth... well where the hell did all of the energy and matter come from BEFORE the big bang. It cant just bang out of no where. If energy is constantly being consumed by the universe and you cannot create NEW energy... Well then where the hell did all this energy come from and what was here before it. Maybe we are a computer program, maybe we are the dream of a creature. Maybe we are an atom in another "world" I dont know. But the problem seems to be Creationists and Evolutionists like to fight each other when neither side has a clue as to what is going on. None of us do.

Hey mate, it is good that you are questioning things.

To begin, there is no question anymore whether or not there was a Big Bang as the evidence supporting The Big Bang Theory is immense and it is by this stage considered a fact (don’t be deceived by the word Theory, it has a more ridged meaning in scientific terms). Although some details of The Big Bang Theory is still being disputed and scrutinized.

Also, if you should study The Big Bang Theory you’ll discover that it was not a Big Bang, the name of the theory is actually misleading. It was actually a Big Expansion of Time and Space, not a Big Bang out of nothing.

In regards to the question where the energy and matter come from before the Big Bang it’s anyone’s guess at the moment. There is plenty of work being done in the fields of physics and cosmology in order to unlock these secrets. Nothingness can actually be unstable and subsequently yield something but with a net energy total of zero. Zero-energy Universe. Or, for all we know, there might be an endless cycle of Big Bang’s and consequent contractions leading to another Big Bang, into eternity.

The fact that we don’t have solid answers to these questions does not bring any validation to the idea of a Creator. Could there be an intelligent creator of the universe? Perhaps. But unfortunately we have no evidence of any kind to suggest that there is, therefore believing in such a creator force is unnecessary and really meaningless. After all, if you are so hung up on the idea that something cannot come from nothing, then where did the energy that makes up God come from? It’s really a non-answer.

Also, you seem to drag evolution into this. Evolution has nothing to do with the creation of the universe (The Big Bang Theory), the creation of the Earth (Planetary formation) or even how life was created (abiogenesis). Evolution deals with how life evolves once it’s already here. Evolutionary Theroy is fact, if you do not accept this at this time you need to educate your self, promptly.

Originally posted by shug7272Fun to think about though. I must admit it is unsettling to suddenly realize the religion you were taught all of your life is... well the bible is horrible. What it says we should do to people. The ONLY way todays Christians (me included) can stomach it seems to be to change it to our own liking and then follow that. If you read it and take it at its word we should all be doing bad things to each other and ourselves.

Can’t say I understand, because I was raised in a secular community and although I had heard of the Christian God of the Bible and even tried to pray a few times I never believed in any of it. I’m just wondering though, is the only reason you no longer believe in being a Christian because the Bible has horrible things in it?

[edit on 25-7-2008 by SilentGem]

I think your all a bunch of brainwashed muppets

Originally posted by jmdewey60
What my answer says is that if you get involved, at a personal level, you can see how God operates, in an anecdotal way.
God is, doing things.
If you look at religion from a distance, you will find it rather difficult to have your questions answered.

First, i'd like to apologize for saying that your reasoning was ignorant and nonconstructive. Sorry about that.


I agree that if you get involved in Christianity at a personal level, it seems very real and also seems that God is doing things. It is a very profound feeling to think that your God is helping those around you and doing small things like keeping coffee pot full when you get to work, or making your dog come home when it runs away, or clearing the skies and making a bright sunny day for when you're sad.


At a personal level, things like that seem like somebody is watching over you and helping every once in a while. But in actuality that is how the human brain works, it seeks out coincidences and matches them with superstition and folklore. The Christian God's powers are no more real or effective than the horseshoe, four leaf clover, or rabbit's foot.


Belief in God is a delusion in every sense of the word, it seems so real but then again Muslims think that the prophet of Muhammad is working for them too. Its real for them. Hindus feel that Krishna and Shiva are setting the wheels in motion. It feels real for them too. Any religion seems real when you get involved at a personal level, its designed to draw you in and brainwash you.


And I disagree with your last part. It is actually easiest to have your questions answered when you are at a distance from Christianity or Islam or whatever because you are on the outside looking in. You can critique, compare, and study without any biases. And trust me, if you're a Christian you know that you have biases.

Originally posted by shug7272
I still think there is a creator.. Maybe its my human mindset. I just cant figure out "if" there was a big bang.. or whatever method you think created the earth... well where the hell did all of the energy and matter come from BEFORE the big bang. It cant just bang out of no where.

Well here's an interesting take on that question. If you have a hard time thinking about where matter came from, certainly do not attribute the matter to coming from God. Because then you have to answer where God came from and it leads you in circles. God, if He exists, must be extraordinarily and infinitely complex and intelligent. So if you have a hard time wondering where Matter came from, just try wondering where Complex Intelligent Matter came from.

There is no reason to think that a God came first, that is just projecting our human intuition on non-human beginnings.

Originally posted by TheB1ueSoldier
If you have a hard time thinking about where matter came from, certainly do not attribute the matter to coming from God. Because then you have to answer where God came from and it leads you in circles. God, if He exists, must be extraordinarily and infinitely complex and intelligent.

anything but god right?

consider your alternatives.

- universe that has always existed. this would mean that the universe is in an eternal cycle of destruction and creation, expansion and retraction. problem with this theory is that the numbers just dont fit. the universe wouldnt have the energy needed to retract to a singularity and then expand again. this theory also forces one to accept that something has always been there. so your whole logic circle is of where did god come from is of no consequence because it would be present here too. either god existed eternally or the universe did.

- suddenly "pop" something came from nothing (nothing in the absolute sense). i boggles my mind how in the mind of an atheist this is more logical than the existence of a god.

silentgem stated "Nothingness can actually be unstable and subsequently yield something but with a net energy total of zero. Zero-energy Universe."

how can nothingness become unstable?! nothingness is not a thing. it is a non-thing. it doesnt exist. it is us that gives nothing a label because its so difficult for us to comprehend nothing.

i took the liberty of checking the link of zero-energy universe. and its funny, they still need to have "something" there before.

The meaning of "nothing" is somewhat ambiguous here. It might be the vacuum in some pre-existing space and time, or it could be nothing at all – that is, all concepts of space and time were created with the universe itself.

even with zero- energy universe theory there is still "something" there before, we just dont know what it is.

then they go on about quantum fluctuations.

Throughout the universe, particles and antiparticles spontaneously form and quickly annihilate each other without violating the law of energy conservation. These spontaneous births and deaths of so-called "virtual particle" pairs are known as "quantum fluctuations."

.....

Perhaps many quantum fluctuations occurred before the birth of our universe. Most of them quickly disappeared. But one lived sufficiently long and had the right conditions for inflation to have been initiated. Thereafter, the original tiny volume inflated by an enormous factor, and our macroscopic universe was born.

so they are saying that these particles that they dont fully understand could have possible sparked the creation of the universe. but of course they existed before the universe right? how do we know they arent caused by a reaction within the universe? it's like saying the dust in the air is responsible for triggering a chain reaction that brought my house into existence. come off it.

zero energy in itself is a misleading name. just because 2 + -2 = 0 doesnt mean there isnt any energy there. it just means there is an opposing balance. if you have a scale, and you have 2 kilos on each side, how much weight is being used? 0?

the whole thing is hogwash. think about what is being said here. absolute nothing when suddenly there is "something". if that doesnt take of a new level of illogical thinking then i dont know what does.

Originally posted by miriam0566how can nothingness become unstable?! nothingness is not a thing. it is a non-thing. it doesnt exist. it is us that gives nothing a label because its so difficult for us to comprehend nothing.

Hello dear miriam! The fact of the matter is that we observe that something come from nothing all the time in nature with the assistance of Quantum Mechanics. Throughout the universe, particles and antiparticles spontaneously form and quickly annihilate each other without violating the law of energy conservation.

Two pair particles can be created with opposite values and as such you’ll have a net energy sum of zero, yet you’ll still have something before they annihilate each other. This concept is also used to explain how a Black Hole can evaporate over time in the theoretical Hawking radiation model.

Originally posted by SilentGem
The fact of the matter is that we observe that something come from nothing all the time in nature with the assistance of Quantum Mechanics.

yes, with the assistance of quantum mechanics... which means its not completely nothing into something.

everything in this universe is cause and effect. its the foundation on which science is built. if you have absolutely nothing, there is no cause, there never will be.

quantum mechanics does some strange things, but it all has a cause (we just arent savvy to all the in's and outs of it).

the beginning of the universe is something completely different. if there was nothing, there is no reason (whether purposed or random) that anything would happen. in fact its impossible

the thing that gets me about this whole discussion is that something popping into existance from nothing is easier for you to swallow than an eternal god.

that the possibility of an eternal universe is more probable than an eternal god.

if an eternal god is impossible, then so are these other theories, simply because they share the same elements that make god so impossible to you.

reply to post by SilentGem

The fact of the matter is that we observe that something come from nothing all the time in nature with the assistance of Quantum Mechanics.

Who do you think created quantum mechanics?
That is the genius of God.
Quantum mechanics is not nothing, and did not come from nothing.
Before God created the universe, he created the operating system for the universe to exist in.

Originally posted by miriam0566
yes, with the assistance of quantum mechanics... which means its not completely nothing into something.

Sigh, perhaps I worded my self poorly but quantum mechanics is a fundamental branch of physics. It’s the study of the world on a very small scale. It’s not something you apply to particles, perhaps you were confused by my use of the word ‘assistance’?

Originally posted by miriam0566
everything in this universe is cause and effect. its the foundation on which science is built. if you have absolutely nothing, there is no cause, there never will be.

Science is not built on the fundamental concept of cause and effect. Science is built upon observations and experimentation. Your point here is a non-sequitur. I’ll quote Wikipedia:

Scientific method refers to the body of techniques for investigating phenomena, acquiring new knowledge, or correcting and integrating previous knowledge. It is based on gathering observable, empirical and measurable evidence subject to specific principles of reasoning.[1] A scientific method consists of the collection of data through observation and experimentation, and the formulation and testing of hypotheses.

Originally posted by miriam0566
quantum mechanics does some strange things, but it all has a cause (we just arent savvy to all the in's and outs of it).

Actually, today physicists have a very good understanding of quantum mechanics. It is a very accurate science. The problem is it is often counter-intuitive and as such hard to grasp.

Originally posted by miriam0566
the beginning of the universe is something completely different. if there was nothing, there is no reason (whether purposed or random) that anything would happen. in fact its impossible

Says you! I’ve already demonstrated to you that something can in fact come from nothing. Saying it is impossible does not make it so.

Originally posted by miriam0566
the thing that gets me about this whole discussion is that something popping into existance from nothing is easier for you to swallow than an eternal god.

It is not. But we have evidence in nature of particles popping into existence from nothing. Alas absolutely no evidence has been collected to support the existence of any Gods(s).

Originally posted by miriam0566
that the possibility of an eternal universe is more probable than an eternal god.

Without empirical evidence I would say the probability for either possibility is equally low. How would you go about calculating such probability anyway? The answer is you cannot, it’s just based upon human intuition, which has been proven to be extremely poor with numbers and probability in general.

Originally posted by miriam0566
if an eternal god is impossible, then so are these other theories, simply because they share the same elements that make god so impossible to you.

Where did I state that an eternal God is impossible?

The theist argument is more or less based upon the following:

Something cannot come from nothing.

The irony here is that theists cannot see the contradiction they are making by such a claim; If God is something then God can not come from nothing. So to summarize it is a non-answer.

By making use of the scientific method we are increasing the knowledge and information available to humankind and as such more and more secrets of the universe will be unlocked as time passes. This is a far more reasonable alternative than putting all your faith in a 2000 year old book written by men for men.

Originally posted by jmdewey60
Who do you think created quantum mechanics?
That is the genius of God.
Quantum mechanics is not nothing, and did not come from nothing.
Before God created the universe, he created the operating system for the universe to exist in.

The genius and sophistication of both quantum mechanics and cosmology is that the theories do not require intervention from God. I once saw an interview with a Nobel prize winning physicist, Steven Weinberg. He was being interviewed by Richard Dawkins and when asked whether he had met any Christian Physicists, the answer was one or two. Weinberg even said that he felt a bit embarrassed for them.


Cosmology links all scientific study and research into a beautifully woven set of theories that work independently and without need for God. So do not make the assumption that quantum mechanics was "created by God."


And if you somehow prove the theory that Quantum Mechanics was created by God (which you haven't), then which God? Why not Zeus or Osiris? They've been around as long if not longer than the Christian-Judeo God. Or why not the ancient Mayan Gods? What makes you think that the God who started the universe was Jesus? In other words, Christians still have all their work ahead of them.

Originally posted by miriam0566
anything but god right?

I am not dogmatic. I'm actually willing to change my beliefs to Christianity if there is enough evidence for its validity. But so far, after attending 3 different churches for the past 8 years, i have found no evidence other than personal testimony and oral tradition for the proof of God.


As to the rest of your post, I can't quite answer it because I'm not a physicist or cosmologist. But wikipedia will work just fine to answer you. en.wikipedia.org...


Now answer me this if you will. You have a hard time believing that Simple Matter came from nothing. Well then answer me how Complex Intelligent Matter came from nothing.

reply to post by TheB1ueSoldier

What makes you think that the God who started the universe was Jesus?

I am not orthodox as far as the trinity goes, so I think Jesus made the New Creation, in other words, the church.
Jesus was with God, at the creation, but in a way that he was reserved for the New Heaven and the New Earth to come about.
I am not scientifically sophisticated, as you are, but in whatever terms may be appropriate, whatever principles govern everything did not just happen, by itself.
The very fact that such a thing exists seems to me to indicate a great Mind at work.
God is not definable and has no name.
What we use for a name for God is really just a way that God explained to Moses that He had no name and only He can and will define Himself, whatever way He wants.

[edit on 26-7-2008 by jmdewey60]

Originally posted by kinglizard
No, no no...it's the way he presented his opinion.

It's like me punching you in the nose, kicking you in the nether regions and stomping on your foot...then saying sorry if this gives you any pain it wasn't my intention. lol

But he didn't physically assault you, you just argued your opinion. That's... what a debate is....

Originally posted by kinglizard
As far as his (or your) opinion about God well...I know the truth, I am VERY secure in my faith. Someones negative opinion about what I know to be true doesn't hurt or anger me...no offense but it doesn't.

That's very good, negative opinions should not offend you. (not that we're trying to offend). But you have to be willing to change your mind and accept new evidence or you'll never grow as a person. Think of how the human race would be if it never changed or was "very secure" in its dogmas.

Originally posted by kinglizard
I just found the way he presented his opinion to be kinda laughable....like the "disclaimer" at the end somehow neutralizes the hateful and malicious tone of the post.

And as an atheist, I find it laughable that Christians put "God Bless You" at the end of a rant against a previous poster. As if that negates all negative feelings because God's on their side.

Originally posted by TheB1ueSoldier
I am not dogmatic. I'm actually willing to change my beliefs to Christianity if there is enough evidence for its validity. But so far, after attending 3 different churches for the past 8 years, i have found no evidence other than personal testimony and oral tradition for the proof of God.

you dont have to change anything, if your search for god has turned up nothing, and that works for you then im happy for you.

ill be honest, what bothers me about these types of discussions is when people say things like "god is fairy tale and its impossible for him to exist" (not you specifically but atheist in general) the they tell me an alternative thats even less logical than god.

i bothers me when people claim to embrace reason and logic and then disregard both.

Now answer me this if you will. You have a hard time believing that Simple Matter came from nothing. Well then answer me how Complex Intelligent Matter came from nothing.

my search for truth has led me to certain conclusions.

-something cannot come from nothing.
-something has always existed.

meaning your question is inconsequential. if god exists, he has to have always existed (no beginning). if god doesnt exist, than the universe has to have always existed (no beginning).

this means that existence (everything including anything outside our reality) has NEVER been a state of absolute nothing.

this points me personally to the existance of god because the universe has evidence of creation. (i understand that there are other possibilities to this including an ever expanding and retracting universe model, or that something inanimate exists outside of reality that caused the creation of the universe)

for me, proof of god includes other factors outside the beginning of the universe. my point though is that existence of a god is not by any means "illogical", at least anymore than saying the universe came from nothing

Originally posted by miriam0566
you dont have to change anything, if your search for god has turned up nothing, and that works for you then im happy for you.

Thank you very much.

Originally posted by miriam0566
this points me personally to the existance of god because the universe has evidence of creation.

Evidence of Creation?
Please watch this video then. Its narrated by a pretty goofy guy, but he's really an astrophysicist from NASA. Very interesting and thought provoking.
uk.youtube.com...