Challenge Match: SpartanKingLeonidas vs Proto Fire Fox: It Really Is Just A Bird Flu?

The topic for this debate is "H5N1 Is A Man Made Virus."

SpartanKingLeonidas is arguing the pro position and will open the debate.
Proto Fire Fox will be arguing the con position.

Each debater will have one opening statement each. This will be followed by 3 alternating replies each. There will then be one closing statement each and no rebuttal.

Character limits are no longer in effect. You may use as many characters as a single post allows.

Editing is strictly forbidden. This means any editing, for any reason. Any edited posts will be completely deleted. This prevents cheating. If you make an honest mistake which needs fixing, you must U2U me. I will do a limited amount of editing for good cause. Please use spell check before you post.

Opening and closing statements must not contain any images, and must have no more than 3 references. Excluding both the opening and closing statements, only two images and no more than 5 references can be included for each post.

The Socratic Debate Rule is in effect. Each debater may ask up to 5 questions in each post, except for in closing statements- no questions are permitted in closing statements. These questions should be clearly labeled as "Question 1, Question 2, etc.

When asked a question, a debater must give a straight forward answer in his next post. Explanations and qualifications to an answer are acceptable, but must be preceded by a direct answer.

Responses should be made within 24 hours. One single 24 hour extension can be used by a member by requesting it in the thread. If 24 hours passes without response, you may proceed with your next post. Members who exceed 24 hours run the risk of losing their post, but may still post up until their opponent has submitted their next response.

This is a challenge match. The winner will receive 2 ranking points, the loser will lose two ranking points.

I would like to thank MemoryShock for setting up the debate, as well as Proto_Fire_Fox, a worthy debating opponent, and may the best man win.

Proto_Fire_Fox and I are good friends, we both edit on TinWiki for Above Top Secret, Fox just happens to be an editor with a badge, while I am not. He and I ended up discussing “bird flu”, “avian flu” or the alpha-numeric designation of “H5N1, whichever name you now know from news sources intelligence sources or even word of mouth communication, and he and I disagree as to whether it is a natural disease that has mutated, Fox’s point of view, or whether it is a bio-weapon which has been biologically engineered within a laboratory, which is the point of view I am arguing.

For those of you who do not know who I am, or would like a little insight into how I think, I feel it is a must to first do a short introduction so as to give you a tidbit of knowledge into how I think as well as where the knowledge I have accumulated has come from.

I have learned, studied, and read about the Art of War since I was six years old, and through this knowledge I have turned the Art of War into the Art of Peace, to be a man who understands the Zen mind as well as cultural diversity and all things espionage.

I understand the following types of war and or combat :

• Physical

• Psychological

• Biological

• Economic

• Spiritual


I am constantly being told almost on a daily basis that I should become a detective and enter either Law Enforcement or Politics, both which I understand fully well, but due to the current Administration and what I believe, it is not a consideration because I know more about what is going on as evidenced within the threads I do here on ATS. Besides what I see wrong within the current Administration, I see a disturbing trend within World Government as well, due to their overwhelming ignorance that the little man is only a number within the machine, and that you and I are worth no more to the people who pull strings behind the scenes as cattle, sheep, or pets to them in their sad and twisted sickness and addiction to control, money, and influence in that they are so warped in the belief that we need to be ruled and tagged via the biochip, they are so insecure that they feel the entire need to make things happen to us on an almost daily basis so as to corrupt our own ability to think as free and independent individuals and become totally dependant on World Government and the Seven World Bankers, that they are willing to cause little wars within larger wars to secret wars within all things society, all countries, as well as Government of every nation as a means of Divide and Conquer.

A biological warfare agent is defined as a living organism, or the substance derived from it, that causes disease in or harm to humans, animals, or plants, or cause deterioration of material. Biological agents may be disseminated as liquid droplets, aerosols, or dry powders.

It is with this definition and through historical knowledge, as well as knowledge of World Government, as well as bringing ATS itself into the debate that I intend to prove the perspective in which I believe that “bird flu”, “avian flu”, or “H5N1” are in fact a biologically produced bio-weapon.

The following are the five questions I have for Proto_Fire_Fox

Question 1

Do you understand to what extent a Government, any Government, would go to in order to control its citizens and to what extreme it is willing to go in order to maintain that control no matter what?

Question 2

To what level do you understand of your own Government, as well as other countries Government’s around the world, and where did you ascertain the level of understanding you arrived at currently?

Question 3

Are you pro-Government, anti-Government, or somewhere inbetween?

Question 4

Have you or anyone within your direct and or indirect family ever served within the military and or Government, and how has that person had an influence upon your perspective on global politics?

Question 5

Are you an “in the box”, “out of the box”, or “destroy the box and start over” thinker?

I eagerly await your answers to the questions I have asked as well as your opening statement, so that we can continue this interesting debate between us, and of course may the best man win.


ATS Member : Burginthorn : North Korea Trying To Weaponize Bird Flu

My first reference website will be an ATS member, Burginthorn, and his thread from two years ago, and how North Korea was/is trying weaponize "bird flu" as well as I believe North Korea is behind the rest of Asia in this regard.

Wikipedia : Unit 731 : Japanese Biological Warfare : WWII : Bataan Death March

My second reference website is a Wikipedia article on WWII and the Japanese having experimented with biological weapons on Allied P.O.W.'s after the Bataan Death March, as well as Nazi Germany's Dr Joseph Mengela having done similar testing in the Concentration Camps.

CIA World Factbook : Asia

My third reference website is the C.I.A.'s World Factbook, and will be used to demonstrate the emnities as well as alliances of Asia.

Well thanks MemoryShock for the setup here, and thanks to SpartanKingLeonidas for accepting this challenge. As aforementioned i am here to persuade every one that Influenza A HPAI subtype H5N1 is 100% natural. It is a naturaly acurring flu and all of its mutations are natural. As for your questions...

1) I do understand that the government is willing to do a lot to try to contain the public. I also know that they have held back in certain times, for example Operation Northwoods was devised in 1968 and its goal was for the US to make a terrorist attack on there country and blame it on Cuba so they could attack. This however was denied but the president. Is it too much to have a tiny bit of faith that some one in the government will do the write thing.

2) My current understanding of government is mixed. When Above Politics was active i enjoyed reading the threads, but now i have to just scan through the web. My thoughts on government is that it is many corrupt people all out for them selves, but at the same time there are people there looking out for the little man.

3)I'm some where in between, it think its a great idea which has went wrong. I think many people would agree here when i say that some people need to be sacked, but others need to be aloud to have more say in matters.

4)My grand father was in the army, but except him i have zero family history in army and politics. Everything i learned has been self taught.

5)Well now, if by the box you mean some level or normality or as a term i now you like to use, sheeple, then i belive that i am outside the box looking inwards. On a web site like this i think we are all above many others as we want to learn the real truth.

I have spent many years researching this subject and i hope that i will be able to make it a good debate for all involved. Ill await your reply.

Fox

Question 1

Do you understand to what extent a Government, any Government, would go to in order to control its citizens and to what extreme it is willing to go in order to maintain that control no matter what?

1) I do understand that the government is willing to do a lot to try to contain the public. I also know that they have held back in certain times, for example Operation Northwoods was devised in 1968 and its goal was for the US to make a terrorist attack on there country and blame it on Cuba so they could attack. This however was denied but the president. Is it too much to have a tiny bit of faith that some one in the government will do the write thing.

Fox, by your own admission there, you state that you believe that government is willing to do a lot, to contain the public, so this is a difference of our beliefs in that I believe government will do anything to maintain control, not just a lot in that some people within government of any country, not one specific one here, are willing to kill not only one individual, but many hundreds to thousands of their own citizens as well as other countries citizens, just to maintain population control through manipulative means, from sending soldiers off to war, to causing strife within their own nation and blame it on someone else’s nation, to the point of letting loose a plague to kill people off.

Question 2

To what level do you understand of your own Government, as well as other countries Government’s around the world, and where did you ascertain the level of understanding you arrived at currently?

2) My current understanding of government is mixed. When Above Politics was active i enjoyed reading the threads, but now i have to just scan through the web. My thoughts on government is that it is many corrupt people all out for them selves, but at the same time there are people there looking out for the little man.

Fox, again re-stating your words here, you have a mixed belief of government. I feel I have a complete understanding of government in that it is made up of people, people who have ideals and beliefs, which usually come in direct conflict with what their job it is to do through the fact that those politicians who make campaign promises to get elected find out or even knew in advance that they can never keep those campaign promises, either because they were paid via a lobbyist, in a sense here within America a legal bribe by a corporation or group of individuals who have an agenda, so there is in essence an agenda followed up by another agenda, thereby negating any responsibility the politician had to the people they are supposed to protect and serve to begin with.

This is of course just the aspect of a politician, who for the majority of anyone who follows politics knows they will lie, cheat, and steal their way to the top, let alone sell their own mothers soul just to get into office, into a position of power where they know they can get to larger sources of monetary gain through an understanding that the higher you go, the higher the payoff or bribes will be. I have little to no faith whatsoever in politicians at all because they are humans just like you and I as well as our other ATS’ers who we talk to on a daily basis through posting here on this conspiracy theory website, the difference there though stops once those people begin an upward climb into the political ladder and battlefield of finger-pointing, backstabbing, and conniving in that humans who seek power end up having an agenda, power seeking to begin with, or who had the best of intentions to begin with but get lost along the way, so as to not be where who they were when they started out in politics and or Law Enforcement.

I have many friends and co-workers who keep stating I should go into politics and or Law Enforcement, as I stated in the opening post, and I usually end up joking with them about not liking me very much, but it does truly bother the ever-loving crap out of me that this is meant in the best way possible from these people who care about me and knowing the strong convictions I have about all things government as well as Law Enforcement and espionage in that I absolutely despise what I might end up becoming because of this belief system because I am not someone who attacks first, but when I perceive an attack from someone, I will go to no ends and never stop once I perceive an attack and go to any extreme to make certain I destroy that opponent.

The Art of War is so inundated in who I am, and while I maintain practicing the Art of Peace, to know peace one must always prepare for war. Something I am always prepared for at any moment because I have been physically attacked, psychologically attacked, had my credibility attacked, to having had character assassination carried out by devious people in my past. Hell, at one of the jobs I currently still work, I went through six years of character assassination from one woman who hated my guts so much as she tried to turn every co-worker against me, and she ended up quitting before she got fired due to my knowledge over here in the Art of War. If I know I’m capable of this I know anyone within government, Law Enforcement, or espionage are willing to do just this as well as go to the extreme of killing people, and I was only trying to maintain keeping my job as well as rise to the top as the alpha-male within the job, something I still maintain after almost fifteen years there, so I can understand fully well the ability of anyone within a position of actual power.

Question 3

Are you pro-Government, anti-Government, or somewhere inbetween?

3)I'm some where in between, it think its a great idea which has went wrong. I think many people would agree here when i say that some people need to be sacked, but others need to be aloud to have more say in matters.

I can respect what you have to say here Fox, in that I am somewhere inbetween as well, being I am pro-government and anti-government, in that I believe government is supposed to protect the interests of the people who put them within power to begin with, but they almost always end up going off to the extreme left-wing or extreme right-wing in their beliefs let alone the people they end up making alliances with within government, and then the enemies they make within government as well as the political battles they fight sometimes just to maintain their position as evidenced by events like the JFK assassination where supposedly some lone nutcase was the cause of a Presidential assassination when it more than likely was a political coupe caused by various factions within the United States own government, which ended up destroying our countries faith in its own government itself.

Question 4

Have you or anyone within your direct and or indirect family ever served within the military and or Government, and how has that person had an influence upon your perspective on global politics?

4)My grand father was in the army, but except him i have zero family history in army and politics. Everything i learned has been self taught.

I have a father who was in the Air Force, someone I’ve never talked to, step-father who brought me up who was in the Marines, an uncle who was in the Navy, and a brother who is in the Marines currently, but to each individual it has affected them differently in how they became the men they are today, in that there are policies, procedures, and protocols they had to follow or are currently following that I am certain came in direct conflict with their beliefs because knowing who they are today has directly influenced who I am because of our interactions not through them telling me anything specific about their jobs, but in how I see their personalities have changed over the years as well as the interactions they have or have not had with me because of the stresses of serving within systems within which they had to work within being the government they served within as well as the “politics” of the military organization they were within as well.

Question 5

Are you an “in the box”, “out of the box”, or “destroy the box and start over” thinker?

5)Well now, if by the box you mean some level or normality or as a term i now you like to use, sheeple, then i belive that i am outside the box looking inwards. On a web site like this i think we are all above many others as we want to learn the real truth.

Well to be fair here with you, when I asked about this question, I meant “in the box” as a direct one way thinker, “out of the box” as thinking outside of normal parameters of thinking, and “destroy the box and start over” as someone who knows how to smash their own beliefs through preconceived notions, and in an essence you hit the nail on the head of my definition as well as most people within ATS and their thinking of the term of “sheeple” in that people who follow blindly are often lead astray by people with agendas.

North Korea is a country within the Asian sphere of the Eastern hemisphere with a Communist government, where the citizens risk arrest, long term imprisonment, permanent deportation, ultimately tens of thousands of its citizens flee into China, another Communist nation to escape the devastating famine, economy, and political oppressiveness of a ruthless dictator like Kim Jong Il only to dive headlong into an opposing country like China because of the idiotic behaviors of their dictator, this being a perfect breeding ground literally and figuratively for the flow of “avian flu” to be transported across national boundaries because as well know people who travels and diseases are often unseen due to symptoms not all being seen or often attributed to travel length and hardships in a regular travel sense let alone one where someone is fleeing the country in secrecy.

Yes i did say that people are held back by others, stopping them doing bad acts. My question to you is...

1)Can you actually give me a name of the country where it was made ? or is this all just complete speculation with no real evidence.

2)If you can name the country then can you also tell me the lab or the people involved.

Bird flu can be traced back for sure to 1959 when Scotland was infected. But until you can show me hard evidence that H5N1 is man made, well until then it is natural. To be honest, you've talked about your self a lot, your work, your friends and not a lot about H5N1 being 100 man made, Ive seen ZERO proof. Until you answer my two questions i cant see any possible way of it being man made. So please give me a country name and a lab name with evidence not just mere speculation with zero proof.

Fox

H5N1 can actually be tracked all the way back. this shows you a time line of outbreaks, now our technology was no were near good enough at those mentioned dates to have created this completely.

QuestionCan you tell me how they made it that long ago with their lack of technology.

can you please reply to my aforementioned questions.

(It has been 24 hrs, i believe it can post again and that Spartan king has giving up one post.)

Fox

My apologies for missing the 24 hour deadline of getting this submission in for the debate to Fox, MemoryShock, and the Judges as well.

1)Can you actually give me a name of the country where it was made ? or is this all just complete speculation with no real evidence.

Answer 1) Actually, I can give you the name of the country, it's Japan, during WWII that was testing on Allied P.O.W.'s

2)If you can name the country then can you also tell me the lab or the people involved.

Answer 2) Shiro Ishii and Unit 731 where he experimented on Allied P.O.W.'s

QuestionCan you tell me how they made it that long ago with their lack of technology.

Answer 1) The current strain of H5N1 is not from that far back and the fact that the rapid speed of infection to actual death of birds suggests that it is not a natural strain but a genetically and biologically super-weapon.

can you please reply to my aforementioned questions.

Answer 2) Answered here within this post.

North Korea is a source country for men, women, and who are often kidnapped or shanghaied for exploitation common forms of trafficking involves North Korean women and girls who cross the border into China voluntarily North Korean women and girls are lured out of North Korea in the belief they are escaping one social problem when they end up being worse off because they then end up becoming a slave through not knowing where they are to not knowing who to trust, needing to survive, and doing anything to survive as well, which makes even more breeding ground for diseases to spread.

If one countries government like North Korea are so oppressive so as to keep their people in fear for their very existence so as to flee it no matter what the consequences, what is the potential here for disease being spread willingly among the citizens just to kill some of them off in order to make them fear fleeing and if they still flee dragging the diseases with them making them a living transporter through actually bio-engineering this disease and release it among their food sources like chickens, a seemingly innocent and common animal where the disease may lie dormant for a period of time until the unsuspecting victim becomes not only a victim but a breeding ground as well as a carrier of said disease into a different region.

During WWII Lieutenant General Shiro Ishii was involved in Unit 731 a covert biological and chemical warfare research and development unit of the Imperial Japanese Army while hiding within as a water purification unit under a cover story. This is where testing of bacteria as a source for weapons to counter the Allies through weapons as a natural means to infect soldiers and citizens was tested upon Allied P.O.W.’s after the Bataan Death March and through their already weakened condition made their immune systems already weak enough to test the diseases as a rapid and fast-track toward lethality of various diseases including botulism, brucellosis, cholera, dysentery, gangrene, glanders, influenza, meningococcus, salmonella, smallpox, tetanus, tick encephalitis, tuberculosis, tularemia, typhoid, typhus, and epidemic hemorrhagic fever.

One P.O.W. named Greg Rodriguez had a Japanese medical technician come into his barracks with a mirror which made the P.O.W. think they were checking to see if the mirror would fog up, but in fact was bacteria present because the same medical technician later came back with a feather to test this as an introduction of the bacteriological agent into the prisoners through inhalation. This would be similar to the equivalent of having a bio-weapon introduced through handling chickens in the farm and rural areas of Asia.

I'm finding that the fact that Shiro Ishii, as someone who had a very strong hand in bio-weapons during WWII died in 1959, the same exact year of the Scotland outbreak, around the same time as well, this man's daughter said he died in Tokyo, he had supposedly died in Camp Detrick, Maryland, after having been taken to the U.S. similar to Nazi and Russian scientists through Operation Paperclip operational procedures. Someone can not die in two places at once, this leads one to believe that the U.S. Government knows something in regards to his death, through the O.S.S./C.I.A. and even the KGB might have killed him to quiet some as yet unknown association with Russia influencing China/North Korea with Communism.

In the intelligence community someone who is under governmental protection dieing under mysterious circumstances is highly suggestive of a person who is either having their death covered up altogether in order to hide them elsewhere or even murdered in order to cover-up any connections altogether and with the death of Shiro Ishii supposedly dieing in two locations at once this is a false trail which had been laid by someone who was inexperienced in the art of suppressing information under National Security, an area which is known to be where crimes are covered up by the American Government and is as well practiced by the former U.S.S.R. by the former KGB and or NKVD, Secret Police Organizations of the Cold War.

en.wikipedia.org...:Shiro-ishii.jpg" target='_blank' class='tabOff'/>

PBS : Shiro Ishii : 1892 – 1959

World Dispatch : United Kingdon

Pychological Weapons of WWII

U.S. Prisoners of War and Civilian American Citizens Captured and Interned by Japan in World War II

The Medusa File: Secret Crimes and Coverups of the U. S. Government

Fox, the reasons of speaking of family as well as the knowledge I have was to introduce that I am aware of intelligence gathering capabilities through detective skills as well as intepreting military information and propaganda both through studies I have done as well as noticing the immediacy of how a contagion affects a regional and or national area where the economy is directly affected through a pandemic event which is a way to introduce a socioeconomic war through seemingly innocent means.

Being that the U.S. Government was involved with Operation Paperclip in accepting Nazi and Russian scientists as well as having offered Shiro Ishii a job, it stands to reason that Russia would do the same exact thing in order to counter these actions as evidenced in how the Cold War was fought through surrogate actions so as to leave plausible deniability to both sides because the public of each nation was tired of warfare after the actions of WWII because of the violence and deaths that ensued into the billions, being that Nazi Germany killed 11 million P.O.W.'s, the Russians killing millions themselves, and the Japanese as well. War is the perfect cover to get away with atrocious crimes in the name of advancing whichever side can get away with it.

Question 1) Have you not noticed that the scientific advances leaped almost 150 years due to the Nazi, Japanese, as well as Allied sides having experimented on P.O.W's which should show that most natural diseases should have be almost non-existant?

Question 2) The medical organizations that were directly influenced as well as assisted both during and after WWII make billions of dollars in profiteering due to war documentation files, so does it not stand to reason that these organiztions are still doing the same thing to this day and driving the Black Market value as well as regular drug sales values through the roof so as to make the average citizen unable to afford these "cures"?

Question 3) Since you've previously stated having little to no knowledge of Government and its willingness to do anything to keep a population in check, does it not stand to reason that a means of population control would be to introduce a bio-weapon as a seemingly innocent normal disease with a quicker death rate into a highly controversial area where diseases already run rampant so as to seem like it fits into the regional expectation but doing this as a large medical experiment in order to test newer strains that are not mutated but actually bio-engineered weapons?

Question 4) Knowing that diseases like A.I.D.S., Syphyllis, and other diseases were experimented and manufactured for the designation as a population control means against black people and drug users, does it not stand to reason that during war any Government would experiment on its P.O.W.'s let alone its own citizens and soldiers?

Question 5) Did you know that while we in the Western half of the world see diseases as medically and readibly cured, in the Eastern half of the world the poorer and more ignorant population centers still see these diseases as being "sent by the gods" as punishment for their evil ways?

I'm enjoying this debate so far, and hope you are as well.

Question 1) Have you not noticed that the scientific advances leaped almost 150 years due to the Nazi, Japanese, as well as Allied sides having experimented on P.O.W's which should show that most natural diseases should have be almost non-existant?

ANSWER --I have noticed the leaps in scientific advances, but you cant say that natural disasters are blamed on the Nazis, Japs and AF all those years ago. Its just speculation and guessing AGAIN.

Question 2) The medical organizations that were directly influenced as well as assisted both during and after WWII make billions of dollars in profiteering due to war documentation files, so does it not stand to reason that these organiztions are still doing the same thing to this day and driving the Black Market value as well as regular drug sales values through the roof so as to make the average citizen unable to afford these "cures"?

ANSWER -- Well since the so called cure is named Tamiflu, it is affordable to all and it has already been stockpiled by many countries.

Question 3) Since you've previously stated having little to no knowledge of Government and its willingness to do anything to keep a population in check, does it not stand to reason that a means of population control would be to introduce a bio-weapon as a seemingly innocent normal disease with a quicker death rate into a highly controversial area where diseases already run rampant so as to seem like it fits into the regional expectation but doing this as a large medical experiment in order to test newer strains that are not mutated but actually bio-engineered weapons?

ANSWER -- So far H5N1 has only killed 400 people and independent research groups who are not funded or owned by the government are so close to a cure. Well seems that there plan has failed then, doesn't it. This is not a population control thing, this is just a virus that is dangerous.

Question 4) Knowing that diseases like A.I.D.S., Syphyllis, and other diseases were experimented and manufactured for the designation as a population control means against black people and drug users, does it not stand to reason that during war any Government would experiment on its P.O.W.'s let alone its own citizens and soldiers?

ANSWER -- AIDS has not been proven to be man made, that once again is just mere speculation with zero proof. Government might experiment on POWS, but as all your previous statements, you have no proof, just wild speculation putting two and two together and coming up with 10.

Question 5) Did you know that while we in the Western half of the world see diseases as medically and readibly cured, in the Eastern half of the world the poorer and more ignorant population centers still see these diseases as being "sent by the gods" as punishment for their evil ways?

ANSWER -- Yes i did.

My questions to you. --

Question 1) from what Ive read you seem to have ZERO proof, everything is just putting pieces together which are just there. Do you have any evidence of records or transcripts that mention H5N1 ?

Question 2) If you do not have the aforementioned in question one, do you now admit that you are just guessing and making speculations with zero real evidence.

H5N1 can be traced back a long time before Nazis and Japs, yes it can mutate but H5N1 stays the same, if always has H5 and N1 in it that is its chemical make up so H5N1 predates every thing you've said.

Fox

I think this my last post, and yours; now just for the closing statement...

Question 1) from what Ive read you seem to have ZERO proof, everything is just putting pieces together which are just there. Do you have any evidence of records or transcripts that mention H5N1 ?

Answer 1) Since you have stated previously that you do not have knowledge of government except what you read here on ATS, it shows that you as well do not have an understanding of war and the extent government goes to after war to cover-up facts of involvement. In this case for instance that it is not a widely known fact that Shiro Ishii was given a deal via the U.S. Government to work for them after WWII. This would mean any and all evidence, records, and transcripts are not in any person's possession other than in highly classified as well as top secret documentation.

Due to knowledge of how war cover-ups take place and as well how during a cover-up is done anything worked on prior to or during WWII by Shiro Ishii would be changed as well, as an example here, "H5N1" would actually be the new name of a manufacted bio-weapon after the cover-up has already taken place. I've already pointed to Shiro Ishii as well as his Unit 731 and the involvement of bioloigical warfare during WWII and the U.S. Government's willingness to stage a cover-up as enough evidence to go by here.

The direct answer is no, no such documentation exists within the grasp of anyone not involved with the cover-up process, but indirectly the answer is that I have already given the proof and since you have no knowledge of how government works, except of what to go by through reading other ATS'ers theories, you have zero proof that I am wrong.

Question 2) If you do not have the aforementioned in question one, do you now admit that you are just guessing and making speculations with zero real evidence.

Answer 2) I believe the answer I have given to Question 1 is sufficient to cover this answer, but to make the effort to answer it again may be needed.

I do not admit to guessing nor speculating, due to having knowledge of warfare, government, the cover-up process as well as knowledge of the history of WWII, and as well that colleges, medical organizations, and as well scientists are generally and almost awlays funded via Government funding or private organizations that have agendas which is essence gives them a hand in the cover-up process in order to make it difficult for people with no knowledge of government, science, and the cover-up process to be able to understand the processes, let alone to prove the event has actually taken place unless someone knows how to follow the the process of a cover-up and government collusion.

Most people do not realize the alpha-numeric designation of "H5N1" is a designation as such to leave the name of something out of the process but to seperate each batch of disease into different test sequences when attempting to keep different strains of diseases properly documented, but it is also a part of the process for each test sequence of a bio-weapon seperated as well. The only real difference is which laboratory a disease is tested and or developed in, who the organization funding it directly or indirectly, and to who the test results go to, a Government, military, or private organization.

Another part of the process that most people do not know or understand, is when a "Camp" like Camp Detrick shifts from the "Camp" designation to "Fort" as in the current Fort Detrick in Maryland, it is going from a semi-temporary designation to the permanent designation because of its need to become a permanent fixture where it remains. Shiro Ishii was taken to Camp Detrick after WWII to work as a scientist for the U.S. Government as well as U.S. Army and all of his war-crimes were expunged, meaning forgiven and covered up.

While yes, diseases can be traced back as far as you have stated, Fox, diseases can be traced back even further in the times of Ancient Rome and Ancient Greece as well as beyond that. The only real difference is back during those times they were known under the misnomer of "plagues" as well as the "gods punishing" people and not under the current names of pandemic and bio-weapons.

The fact that only 400 people have died due to "bird flu" currently is not the only concern here, in that it is not just the 400 deaths that are a part of the process, as they are only a small part, being that the media hype through broadcasting world-wide the information acts in a way and a sense like psychological warfare as well as financial warfare to inundate the mass populace as to the possibility to get this disease at random, which makes people not want to travel there, for people to stop eating certain food, for instance chickens, and to be terrified of any and all birds they may come into contact with. The actual disease of H5N1 is only a smaller cog within the larger cog of governmental controls that the various factions of World Government tamper with in order to scare the mass populace into the control process through fear.

This is not only a control mechanism but a hierarchal control system in that the poor people fall under control the rich and elite through the need to get medical attention, rely of government for protection, and to pay out more money keep the poor in the decrepit state of being poor and making drug companies as well as private orgnizations continually in control through funding the politicians worldwide under various different means.

North Korea has been at a state of truce with the U.S. Government since 1953, hence it is currently still at a state of war, as truce is only the "white flag" of negotiations, meaning the state of war is in actuality still going currently, but due to the subdued nature of the level of war, it is in essence a smaller "Cold War" which was maintained during the larger Cold War which until the Soviet side of the Berlin Wall fell was still going, so in essence there were two Cold War's brewing simultaneously, but only one which was known to the public. This having been said, that North Korea is saber-rattling with their threat of nuclear testing right now is only a by-product of an ongoing war which is still maintaining tyrannical control over a region like Korea and influencing the Asian mindset to this day.

A disease like "bird flu" is in essence a control mechnism within a control mechanism and North Korea is behind on this whereas China and Japan are ahead of the process, and since the U.S. Government had occupied Japan after WWII due to the treaty signed by Hirohito and MacArthur, the U.S. Government through the U.S. military bases there has had a similar place to Fort Detrick on Japanese soil and through funding can as well test out various diseases as bio-weapons on foreign soil.

The fact that Shiro Ishii and the Japanese teste bio-weapons on the Allied P.O.W.'s during WWII and called those test subject "murutas" or "logs" was a way for the scientists to disassociate themselves from the crimes against humanity they were committing against soldiers. The same disassociative behaviors were done by Nazi scientists during the testing of the Allied P.O.W.'s, Jews, and various other "test subjects" in the Concentration Camps of Dachau, Birkenau, and Auschwitz.

Question 1) Fox, if you have little to no knowledge of how Government works except through reading other peoples "conspiracy theories" on websites like ATS, how can you actually say you know the process of how diseases are studied, because if anyone knows how Government works, they know that medical organizations, colleges, and work studies into diseases are generally funded via Government grants, direct funding, or private funding which can be linked back to someone with an agenda?

Question 2) Since you stated that you do know that in the Western mind that diseases are medically treated but in the Eastern mind they are seen as "punishment from the gods" wouldn't this stand to reason as the perfect divide and conquer means to seperate the Western and Eastern populace in yet another division of the populace of the world so as to not be able to unite outside of governmental control?

Wikipedia : Unit 731 : Biological Warfare : WWII

Wikipedia : Shiro Ishii : WWII

Wikipedia : Camp Detrick/Fort Detrick

Wikipedia : Control Mechanism

Wikipedia : Hierarchal Control System

Question 1) Fox, if you have little to no knowledge of how Government works except through reading other peoples "conspiracy theories" on websites like ATS, how can you actually say you know the process of how diseases are studied, because if anyone knows how Government works, they know that medical organizations, colleges, and work studies into diseases are generally funded via Government grants, direct funding, or private funding which can be linked back to someone with an agenda?

Yes i am aware that some can be linked to the government. Every one has an agenda you cant say something that vague and expect a good answer.

Question 2) Since you stated that you do know that in the Western mind that diseases are medically treated but in the Eastern mind they are seen as "punishment from the gods" wouldn't this stand to reason as the perfect divide and conquer means to seperate the Western and Eastern populace in yet another division of the populace of the world so as to not be able to unite outside of governmental control?

Evil -- So you still believe that people in the Asian world think that its punishment from the Gods, so you believe that the highly technically advanced japan and others still think that way ? i have no doubt some do but your classing so many into one category and its just plane wrong. Bird flu is predicted to kill less than 1% of this worlds population. Seems a little off the 90% plan don't you think ?

As you can see, my opponent has no proof of any of this, he has no evidence, he has no real standing at all. All he has is a name..with even then has no evidence. Bird flu can be traced back along time before World War One and Two, bird flu predates everything you have stated -- There fore wiping it all from the board. You can see the history of bird flu that predates everything my opponent said in my previous post.

Thank You and Good Night -- Fox

Well Done, gentlemen...off to the judges.

Again, well done to both...but there can be only one...Congratulations to SpartinKingLeonidas. The judges comments...

Having read most of the debates in this Forum I feel that SpartanKingLeonidas spent too much time on subjects that dont pertain to the debate. Him having read "the art of war" for example, might tell him a bit about covert warfare but does nothing to prove that Birdflu is man-made. It might be that this was done due to lack of "meat" for his case.

ProTo Firefox on the other hand posted too little in comparison. Simply stating "there´s no evidence" may be enough elsewhere, but in this Forum it is expected to put a bit more effort into rebuttals. Apart from the Spartans lack of proof his strongest point of the debate was the fact that not too many people (comparitively) had fallen victim to the diseases associated with BirdFlu.

Who is the winner of this debate then? If I were to base my judgement purely on hard facts, it might be ProTo FireFox.

The winner is SpartanKingLeonidas though. Not on account of his cunning debate skills but on the strength of the referenced sources. I did have to leave the debate and read up on the various links and sources in order to find out that there indeed is a case for man-made viruses and bio-weapons. Quite chilling a case in fact, that warrants further investigation.

Having convinced me that further investigation is needed will suffice for a debate win.

I judge SpartanKingLeonidas to be the winner of the Bird Flu debate. He covered the subject well, gave background to support his judgments, presented sufficient resources for his data and asked probing and thought-provoking questions.

While ProTo Fire Fox was a worthy opponent and asked excellent questions, I found his presentation of facts that support his position to be somewhat lacking. He seemed to assume that his position was the default truth unless his opponent could prove otherwise. And he only presented one source, which failed to support his assertion.

Congratulations to both ProTo Fire Fox and SpartanKingLeonidas on a job well done.

Although I can understand the intentions of SKL trying to lay some groundwork for his position, I feel it became more of a case of filibustering than it was a presentation of evidence or rebuttal of arguments. He did provide some interesting points but I have to agree with PTFF that it was speculation and guesswork more than anything else. SKL provided several links of government experiments with biological warfare but nothing I saw that was related to the H5N1 virus directly (or as directly as we could have hoped for). Most people are going to know that biological warfare has taken place so without a specific tie-in to the H5N1 virus, the links to various experiments didn't seem to be entirely relevant to this specific debate topic. I also didn't feel the explanation of 'you won't find [documentary] evidence because it was a cover-up' to be sufficient.

I was slightly confused by the amount of time spent on questions and answers dealing with the opinions of government and power. It is certainly understandable how it was somewhat relevant to the debate but the question and answer sessions overcame the presentation of evidence and rebuttals. PTFF made a good point when he offered an interesting link on the history of outbreaks dating back to the B.C. era- a point I never saw SKL refute with facts but instead offered what appeared to me to be more grandstanding and speculation.

In the end, I have to go with ProTo Fire Fox as the winner.

[edit on 27-7-2008 by MemoryShock]

I would like to thank MemoryShock, Proto_Fire_Fox, the judges, as well as ATS for the opportunity for both Fox and I to debate "Bird Flu", for both of our very first online debate. While I realize I did not directly link evidence to this having been a bio-weapon, I hope everyone realizes there is a whole lot more to this than just what either of us expressed here within this debate.

Biological warfare can be traced back to Biblical times if you know how to read the book in the right context, as well as reading between the lines, and through interpretational skills. "Bird Flu" is a disturbing topic to think about either in whether it is a natural disease, or a man-made bio-weapon.

Fox and I are friends, and remain so even after this debate on a point where we totalliy disagree to the extent of which side is correct or not.

Be sure and visit the H5N1 Avian Flu Forum as well as A Detailed Introduction Of H5N1 To New Comers, the other debater, My friend Proto Fire Fox's thread on ATS.

[edit on 27-7-2008 by SpartanKingLeonidas]