Apes in Europe could get same legal rights as humans

Apes are animals, not humans. They deserve animal rights, not human rights. The right to own property? Wtf is a monkey going to do with property? I think this is really stupid.

I love animals and believe in animal rights, which are intrinsic to animals the same way human rights are intrinsic to humans. To give an animal human rights is akin to giving a person dog rights: the right to sniff others, pee on things, and drink from the toilet. It's totally meaningless!

Apparently the gorilla-child scenario happened more than once. Here is a video of 8yo Binti Jua rescuing a little boy who fell into her enclosure:

Gorilla Saving a Child

Animals born in captivity are often not able to take care of themselves in the wild, so they still might be able to keep them in a zoo, but they might have to have better conditions.

If this law would stop the importation of wild-caught primates, that would be a good thing in my opinion. That is where we truly "deprive them of their freedom."

I do not think it would mean apes running around free & unsupervised. Children have the same rights as other humans, but they are still required to have supervision.

I had to read the source article again, and it ends with:

"I think there's a very big misunderstanding about this," Stibbe said. "People imagine that we're trying to get rights for a nonhuman animal so he can go to college. This is about basic rights not to be killed."

This is not about giving apes rights to own property, its about giving them the right to life and freedom, and why would those rights even be considered in the first place as only "human rights"?

It's a mad house. A mad house! Charlton Heston as Taylor in "Planet of the Apes".

Though greed and carelessness we've destroyed too much natural habitat for these creatures on our planet. It's about time we give them rights and set aside more of their lands before they're completely extinguished from the Earth.





[edit on 17-7-2008 by verylowfrequency]

reply to post by semperfortis




Good luck trying to sleep with a 400 pound silver back gorilla laying next to you.

reply to post by virraszto


It is a very important step towards a more ape centred future. We are seeing apes becoming the legal equal of humans.

Related ATS thread.
www.abovetopsecret.com... =#pid4645364

reply to post by DJMessiah


Hm, 400 pound gorillas live in the rain forests of Africa. They have no will and means to go around walking freely with no one to watch them. Im pretty sure they just wanna stay in their jungle and go around doing their gorilla thing.

They won't come and steal our jobs, in any case

reply to post by Wallachian


Well this law only applies to Europe, so I guess the gorillas in Africa have nothing to worry about.

One thing I can see as a huge potential for abuse is from reading this part of the article: "Austrian law says only humans can receive monetary gifts and have guardians, which Austrian courts have upheld in this case. His case was appealed to the Strasbourg court in May."

People can avoid taxes and paying lawsuits simply by giving ownership of their property to apes. I don't even want to go into what corporations and politicians can do. This sounds silly, but people will do take advantage of any loophole to make money.

reply to post by sc2099


hey, if you want to pee on things or drink from the toilet, go right ahead. I'll kick the head off anyone who tries to stop you

Anyway, no one said apes weren't animals, but then again are we anything else. Now of course you're going to reply with something like, we're thinking, consious, self aware, tool using, comunicative, intelligent but!, so are the great apes. Sentience alone, should be enough to gaurantee them rights akin to our own.

Europe wants to give apes human rights? Why not? Aren't they the same idiots who want to treat Islamic terrorists like rational human beings?

reply to post by feoil

Now of course you're going to reply with something like, we're thinking, conscious, self aware, tool using, communicative, intelligent but!, so are the great apes

Well i am not going to reply with anything like that. Chimp will not live with and use rules of gorillas, orangutans and vice versa. You think humans are animals - no problem, but we are different animals then. Rules of human societies are not absolute for all animal kingdom. If there is a need to protect animals from human expansion/misuses - grant animals more animal rights. Why humanizing different animals? To take someone's identity away is not a lot better then to use that someone for experiments. Chimp should live in their locations in the wild, not in the cities or labs for that matter.
What will prevent from human with same intelligence as a chimp be treated equally with that chimp? In human society!
No amount of PC stuff will make us and apes same species with same
values and rules.
And while we at it - why not same rights with dolphins,pigs,dogs...cows...cats..?

Originally posted by EverythingYouDespise
Europe wants to give apes human rights? Why not? Aren't they the same idiots who want to treat Islamic terrorists like rational human beings?

Europe wants to give apes freedom from cruelty. Tell me how what you said has ANYTHING to do with this thread? Are you saying we shouldn't give apes rights? What's your point? Are you saying that we are too soft? Should we open a European version of Guantanamo? Would that make you happy?

Animals can be beautiful and are and we should not allow a bunch of ugly men to kill them to extinction. If it takes changes in law then we should protect them because once they are gone that is it. The tiger is one the best loved species and is admired and yet they are nearly extinct. What a tragedy and a human mistake we are making for the love of money.

No wonder God will come with anger at us in judgement like when the time of Noah the species of the earth were being genetically currupted and God had to save them.

reply to post by ZeroKnowledge


I actually agree with everything you say. To treat apes as humans, would of course be of no service to them.
The point i was clumsily trying to make was to extend the protections we enjoy to them, essentially to protect them from us, i'm not saying saying that they should be given driving licenses or anything.

[edit on 17/7/08 by feoil]

Originally posted by Corum

Originally posted by EverythingYouDespise
Europe wants to give apes human rights? Why not? Aren't they the same idiots who want to treat Islamic terrorists like rational human beings?

Europe wants to give apes freedom from cruelty. Tell me how what you said has ANYTHING to do with this thread? Are you saying we shouldn't give apes rights? What's your point? Are you saying that we are too soft? Should we open a European version of Guantanamo? Would that make you happy?

Nobody should have the right to freedom from cruelty, especially not a dumb beast. The only reason human beings are the lords of the Earth now is that we've exploited its natural resources to the full possible extent. And yes, that means being "cruel" to some animals.

As for the other point, it's a bit off topic but I'd prefer a Cuban version of Belsen.

Originally posted by EverythingYouDespise

Nobody should have the right to freedom from cruelty, especially not a dumb beast. The only reason human beings are the lords of the Earth now is that we've exploited its natural resources to the full possible extent. And yes, that means being "cruel" to some animals.

As for the other point, it's a bit off topic but I'd prefer a Cuban version of Belsen.

I think everyone and everything has the right to freedom from cruelty. To say anything else is purely sadistic. I love a good movie where someone is suffering and in pain but I understand that it is entertainment and not real. Wanting everyone and everything to experience cruelty is simply heartless. By saying wanting I mean saying they should not have freedom from cruelty as there is little difference.

I guess this is normal though in the world we live in if you look around there are plenty of people wanting to inflict cruelty on other being both human and animal. These people feel little or no remorse for their actions as well. I can only hope that someday something or someone comes along to soften the hardness of their heart.

As for dumb beast, well I guess that is in the eye of the beholder. Since apes have been known to use very simple tools I would think that makes them rather smart in many ways. Certainly smarter than some humans who could not survive on their own out in the wild.

Raist

None of that nonsense is necessary to protect animals against cruelty. Only anti-cruelty laws are needed. If they give animals rights, you can be sure some lunatic will find a way to abuse it to society's detriment.

If it were to go worldwide and be parlayed into a law that forbids eating animals somehow, billions of humans could die while the animals went on eating each other like nature intended. I can see that happening now.

Look at what we have happening now. We have PETA who's goal is the elimination of domestic animals. We have the Earth First Terrorists, who I've met and dealt with, who want an end to technology and a return to living wild, no matter how many billions die. They have in fact caused the deaths of people already by spiking tree's, setting fires and destroying property. Imagine if they had some kind of insane legal precedent to call into play.

As to Apes, they are not cute little animals. The ones you see performing or on television and movies are juveniles. Adults are incredibly strong and very violent. A Chimp can tear a man to pieces in seconds without a second thought. We now know they even have wars, eat meat and practice cannibalism. In their real environment they are far from cute.

I don't think something should be a given a right unless it is able to understand what a right is, or at least has the potential to learn.

Children will grow up and learn these things, apes, monkeys, chimps, etc. will not. They will just do the same things they did whether they had rights or not, it is a waste. Treat them nicely unless they attack or endanger you, but I don't see how they deserve rights?!?

I believe that animals have the right to be tasty.

Thats wicked if they are our closest genetic relative then they should be exposed to the way we live, sooner or later they'll evolve to grow up possibly even understand English and other things us humans are exposed too...

Kinda neat... i'd love to see apes kickin in the hood on my stoop!

[edit on 18-7-2008 by Spock Shock]