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Is the Shroud of Torino, according with new Technolgic tests the most precious relic of the History?

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posted on Jul, 13 2008 @ 01:49 PM
The Peace of God to all that belong to the light,
Dear Readers,

I started this thread here in Science & Technology of ATS to discuss one of the most interesting businesses of our time and also one of the most polemical in many different fields: Science, technology, Religion, Parapsicology, Art, History, etc.

This is a discussion about if the last new advances in Science and Technology, used to date ancient archaelogical objects, are contradicting the appearantly negative result of the radio carbon on the so called Shroud of Christ that is currently located in the cathedral of Torino, Italy.

During the last winter Olympic games thousands of tourists of all arround the world were witnesses of one of the most populated exhibitions of this ancient object that according with the cronicles of the crusades is the original Mandolion taken from Contantinopolis in the XII century by templair knights and brought by them to Italy.

The most recent evaluation about the tests practiced to the cloth stored in Turin to determine its authenticity clearly shows that there is so high probability that indeed it be the authentic Shroud of Christ. To be sincere among all the possible tests like:

- the verification of the cruxification technical details,
- the polen granes contained on its surface,
- the style of the texture that corresponds with the ones of the epoch of Christ,
- the exact correspondence of the blood spots with the ones of the Oviedo Sudarium, an historical piece which authenticity is out of doubt.
- the anatomic precision of the figure,
- the match between the damages in the cloth and all the historical events that we know happend in its travel from the middle east,
- the exact correspondence of the face of Christ with the most early bizantine portraits of Jesus, from the V and VI centuries.
- The perfect matching with the aspect of the Mandolion, registered in many wall paintings of ancient Orthodox churches, a cloth with the face of Christ that the crusades stole from Constantinopla precisely in the XII century.
- the verification of the presence of human blood in the shroud, the same type of the one found in the Oviedo Sudarium,

all these rigurous exams does not count at all only because a so inprecise test of Carbon 14 applied in a cloth that at least two times was not only exposed to great amounts of smog but almost disappeared burned in Constantinopla and in Turin didnt give a date of the 1st century?

Almost any serious scientist knowing the conditions of this piece could predict that none test of radio carbon can match its actual age, since all those accidents or attemps to destroy it changed the natural proportion of that isotopic substance.

The relatively recent research of the nuclear Phycisist Harry E. Gove of the University of Rochester showed that there is a bioplastic material created with the bacterias living in the cloth that drastically altered all the presence of C-14.

This same thesis is supported by Leoncio A. Garza-Valdes, MD, adjunct professor of microbiology, and Stephen J. Mattingly, PhD, professor of microbiology at the University of Texas at San Antonio. Experiments done by this 2 scientists trying to date ancient Epyptian mummies with known antiquity have failed in between 800 to 1000 years, that match very well with the supposed error present in the date of the XII of the Shroud.

With the arguments against the authenticity of the Shroud and the spread of obscure theories of a possible falsification done by Leonardo Da vinci, supported even in sensasionalist novels like the Davinci code of Dan Brown, the reputation of a great man and also of the Italian Nobility is discredited, since supposely they were the ones that incharged such production of false relics only to deceive the people through their beliefs, to get money from them.

To say that the Shroud is a trick of Photography and Painting is equivalent to say that the House of Savoy, the Royal italian family is involved in perhaps the most great deceit of the History.

The House of Savoy is not only the last dinasty of Italy but also one of the most important royal families of Spain and Portugal, the two Realms that supported the discovering of the western hemisphere, and one of the eldest of europe, with roots in the Sacre Roman Germanic Empire.

Besides this the appearently origin of the Shroud in Constanopolis( currently Istambul, Turkey) would compromise not only the latin Church but also the Greek Orthodox one in the possible fraud if that can be confirmed.

Anyway the new tecnological discoveries around the Carbon 14 testing look to give new light in favor of the authenticity of this object that it is probably the most important archaelogical thing of the History.

I would like to invite everybody in this forum to take place in this amazing discussion but specially scientists of all disciplines and famous shourdlogists that wants to also give their opinions.

Thanks for your atention.

Your friend,

The Angel of Lightness

[edit on 7/13/2008 by The angel of light]

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[edit on 13-7-2008 by Jbird]

posted on Jul, 13 2008 @ 02:46 PM
reply to post by The angel of light

The House of Savoy is not only the last dynasty of Italy but also one of the most important royal families of Spain and Portugal...

If you were to travel up the Po River from the upper Adriatic, you would end up at Piedmont, after going almost all the way across Northern Italy.
Once you got to this point, at Torino, you would go straight into the Alps, to the St Bernard Pass to go into France.
Venice was the place in the Adriatic that ruled Mediterranean shipping.
So, the House of Savoy had a great geographical situation to gain riches from European trade routes.
They leveled the city and rebuilt it using the best Baroque architects.
The Royal palace is still pretty impressive and at one corner of it is the royal chapel.
The chapel has access to the Cathedral of Giovanni Batista.
The shroud is supposedly in the Cathedral but is really in the Chapel.
How do I know all this?
I was there.
Pretty cool, I thought.

[edit on 13-7-2008 by jmdewey60]

posted on Jul, 13 2008 @ 11:50 PM
reply to post by The angel of light

any links to these supposed positive tests? i'd like to read them myself.

posted on Jul, 14 2008 @ 12:04 AM
Hi, Of course

The full explanation about why the carbon 14 technique fails in this type of Object is posted, following the research of the nuclear physicist Harry E. Gove of the University of Rochester, at:

There are these nice articles of Microbes Muddle Shroud of Turin's Age , with the research of Garza-Valdes at University of Texas Sn Antonio at:

This is so important step to explain what happend with the Carbon 14 test and open a new solution to certify the authenticity of the Shroud, over the difficulty created by the bioplastic covering, since he and Dr Mattingly worked in many precolumbian objects and also of ancient egypt improven the method and showing that indeed the Carbon 14 test fails in a so biased way in dating objects thanks to the bioplastic coating created by microorganisms.

This other link shows that support of Dr Doublas Phillips of Harvard University to the discovery done by Harry Gobe and supported on the practical tests performed by Garza-Valdes and Mattingly in USA to many so old objects:

Finally you can find in the following link an extensive list and explanation of all the tests practiced on the Shroud and how all of them arrives to a so different conclusion than the one of the Carbon 14:

Thanks for your paticipation in the thread

Your friend,

The Angel of lightness

[edit on 7/14/2008 by The angel of light]

posted on Jul, 14 2008 @ 12:19 AM
Just out of curiosity, Angel. You apparently believe that there are tiny samples of Jesus Christ's blood. What would you think of someone cloning Jesus Christ from those drops of blood, were that possible?

How would you regard that clone? I realize this is an awfully difficult question. If you don't have an immediate reaction to the concepts, I understand that we do not always know how we will take something in advance.

It poses a large problem for me to believe scientists when it comes to vested interests, and religion.

Why should we take to heart a newer test's results, when the scientific community cannot agree on the outcome of prior tests. It seems more art than science to me. What makes the new test so trustworthy?

Trust with your heart, reason with your mind. If the two diverge, allow yourself to flow like water in both directions until you come to the natural conclusion.

[edit on 14-7-2008 by Cyberbian]

[edit on 14-7-2008 by Cyberbian]

posted on Jul, 14 2008 @ 12:28 AM
reply to post by Cyberbian


I suggest you to check the movie The boys of Brasil, is an excelent production in which you can find the answers of your questions, by the way in that film it was explored the possibility that Dr Mengele could successfully cloned 95 children from some blood sample of Adolph Hitler.

The point is that the supposed Nazi experiment was several times more complex than to only do the genetic part, through a series of complicate surgeries, but also because it was necessary to reproduce the cultural and familiar conditions to get something similar than the original.

In that film, with the extraordinary good performance of Tyron Power in the role of Mengele, the plot is discovered by a Nazi hunter in Germany and the Israelian intelligence precisely thanks to the multiple crimes that Mengele ordered to make all the boys orphans at the same age that Hitler lost his step father. ( he never knew his biological father that ironically was a rich Jew, and this is not fiction is the truth)

Well in the case of Christ first there is no well preserved blood as the hypotethical case of Hitler's cloning experiment, and second who is going to reproduce the family conditions of a person that was half human half God???

thanks for your participation in this thread and it was a good attempt but I suggest to dont tempt me anymore, remember that there is enough objective evidence of my close relationship with God.


The Angel of lightness

[edit on 7/14/2008 by The angel of light]

posted on Jul, 14 2008 @ 12:34 AM
reply to post by The angel of light

Returning to the links that the readers are requesting, here there is another alternative theory that also explains the fail of the Carbon 14 but through a completly different line of reasoning.

In this ocasion the problem is the contamination of the object, and therefore of any sample taken from it, with carbon monoxide released in the two fires in which the Shroud it was almost destroyed.

The research has been done by the Physics John Jackson of the University of Colorado and has produced possitive reaction of the Prof. Christopher Ramsey, head of the Oxford University Radiocarbon Accelerator Unit.

Plse chk this:

Jackson has been also researching in the possible explanation of the way in which the image was created, he porposed a new theory based on radiation that match very well with the type of image in the shroud, in fact is the only that really satifies all its intriguing characteristics, specially its tridimensionality. Dr. Dmitrii Kuznetsov, a Russian Physicist has expressed his support to this theory and also the interest of the scientific community of his country in the Relic.

Pls chk this

Thanks for your atention,

Your friend,

The Angel of lightness

[edit on 7/14/2008 by The angel of light]

posted on Jul, 14 2008 @ 12:36 AM
It was an excellent movie, and your points are well taken.

I think the part about temptation was enough to see you are both drawn and repelled by the idea. I have the same feeling. Leaning heavily on revulsion at the hubris of human presumptiousness.

I would not tempt fate and risk generating the opposite of my intention.
Had Christ not resisted temptation, I wonder at the result of his kingdom here on Earth, and the weilding of that power to achieve it in a single generation. In each lies an equal provision be it for good or evil, even intention cannot forsee the outcome.

posted on Jul, 14 2008 @ 12:44 AM
I have read of these things previously, and seen video of the players. I found enough bias and opinion to be reserved.

I do not trust any of these "Scientists" as far as I could throw them.
Some I am sure are good and honest. Others not so. Regardless, they are not proven, they are debaters.

If you want it to be real, it is real for you. For myself, I it does not matter if Jesus Christ is a fiction. The concept is sufficient.

Return love for hate! This is a metaphysic.

We release these profound energies through our emotions, we provide them with intent, vague or explicit. They move and gather to fulfill our intents. When you return hate for hate, hate will prevail. Return love for hate and balance is maintained. If enough follow the metaphysic love prevails.

Jesus Christ, what a concept! The concept is enough for me.

posted on May, 4 2012 @ 01:02 PM
reply to post by Cyberbian

The Peace of God to all that belong to the Light,
Dear Readers,

Let me return to this thread that was opened in 2008, correctly previewing the arrival of new important and determinant technological advances that might clarify the controversial results of the C14 carbon dating, that seemed to put this reliq of the Christendom as part of the midle age ones.

As I pointed in that epoch there was a really interesting and scientifically based critizise about the validity of the radioactive carbon technique of dating applied to this kind of old cloth.

To resume what it was said in that epoch, let me recall that various groups of scientific teams interested in this Shroud, and that were not agree with the way it was dated, in particular an American one and also a Russian one, proposed 3 important objections to the supposed estimated age that put the object as belonging to the late 13 century or early 14 one.

The aspects that were not considered were:

- The presence of a huge alteration of the C14 decomposition natural scheme as a result of the various fires the shroud was exposed to along the History, apart of the candles were lighting close this shroud for many years when it was exposed publically. There are at least three of them perfectly documented, through historical records, apart of the fact that the cloth itself shows clear signals of burns, that damaged even central parts of it.

- The presence of a biofilm created by bacterias living in the tissue of the cloth along centuries, and that also alters drastically the original C14 decomposition scheme, as it was proven has occured with other very ancient objects like mummies of Egypt.

- Due to the burns the clothe at present has parts of it that belong to much more recent times than the original fabric, since there were attempts of restoration at different moments of the History. There is no complete certaintity that the samples for the C14 testing were taking from the original clothe or from areas that belong to more recent times.

The important point now, is that as I predicted it was going to occur, new Technologies have evolved in the very last decade that might date the Shroud with several times more precission that the test practised in the late 1980's and without destroy any part of it.

Pls check:
Scientific criticize of the C!4 test practised in 1988:

Italian Scientist team have found a way to prove that the Shroud cant be a medieval relic:

New Technologies are showing the the Shroud actually contains stains of human blood.

This is a new chapter for History of the famous Shroud of Torino, a new begining for the solution of its controversy, that might give a fair place to this so interesting reliq that is not really an original Catholic one but might be in custody or the Greek Orthodox Church for centuries, when the cloth was in Constantinople ( today Istanbul) in permanent exhibition until some point of the History in between the final assault of the 4th crusade (1204 A.D) over the Bizantine capital and the entering on it of the Turkish Otoman troops at the end of the seige over the city in 1423 A.D. At that time it was called the Mandylion and there are many reliable accounts of its historicity.

Thanks for your attention,

The Angel of Lightness
edit on 5/4/2012 by The angel of light because: (no reason given)

posted on May, 4 2012 @ 01:21 PM
reply to post by The angel of light

You can never doubt the power of our lord almighty! That is a pretty powerful statement to be able to cast a portrait of his son Jesus Christ on the shroud. Carbon dating is mostly a joke anyways, I can't believe that is still a test required to date items! It can give you a general idea, but nothing is exact other than the word of god!

Like I always say to the non believers, Jesus could come to earth right now and have all the information anyone asked for, heal everyone, do everything in his power to prove he is real.....And the non believers still wouldn't believe....

Stars to you for spreading the word.....

edit on 5/4/2012 by Chrisfishenstein because: (no reason given)

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