2012 Debunked

I hope you are not honestly assuming it was one guy who "wrote" (quotes in sarcastic replacement of the real work done which includes mathematics, art and astrology) the Mayan cosmological view...


Also, Andre18, your post made little effort to debunk (I'm not even sure how you can debunk something that is not a fact in itself, except for the FACT that the Mayan calendar and the end of an age which the modern Mayans themselves admit to be part of the cycles of the cosmos ends in 2012) the 2012 discussion/phenomena/situation (?)...

If you hadn't debunked it before, you still haven't.

Let me try to make this thread take a slight turn for a time... Answer me this question:

What information in particular about 2012 fulfills the parameters for a theory that can be debunked as such?

Ok what I’ve debunked is the theories, the assumptions that on 2012 there will be a world wide ascension, higher uplifting of human consciousness, alien contact, end of the word scenario, apocalypse, seconding coming of Christ or other…..

I went to the best place where one could find the answers to what’s really happening on 2012 and I found that nothing in particular will happen except for the end of the Mayan calendar. Maybe an alignment will happen with our earth and the centre of the galaxy as suggested, but simply a coincidence of timing. If the calendar finished on 2001, there would’ve been a conspiracy that the Mayans new in advance about 9/11. Simply a coincidence.

I even found with literally only a few minutes of research that the book ‘The Mayan Factor: Path Beyond Technology’ is what all the 2012 conspiracies are based on and is not even supported by professional Mayanist researchers.

So, given all their knowledge of the cosmos, they would only by coincidence denote certain periods of time... Even thought they accurately knew the time when their own civilization would be conquered.

I still don't see how you, literally, debunked the whole alien, paradigm shift, consciousness rise, ascension issue.

You might have gone to the perfect place to study the subject, but at the wrong time. Try 600+ years ago when the civilization was thriving. Then of course you should also know the Mayan language, regardless of the time since you would probably have better information from someone who isn't payed to share certain information. I'm not surprised at all that your Mexican tour-guide didn't express much information at all, and trust me the information is there, and I'm not talking aliens or any paranormal issue; I'm talking about simple correlations, advanced mathematical knowledge, deep understanding of cosmology...

I don't think you are being highly sensitive to your own ability to research if you think that what your tour-guide shared with you is the ultimate, most complete analysis of the contents and stipulations of the Mayan calendar situation.

Again, it seems you are completely disregarding the fact that the Maya aren't the only ones with a 2012 denotation in their calendar...


You haven't answered my question. What is the theory about 2012 that you have debunked, then?

So, given all their knowledge of the cosmos, they would only by coincidence denote certain periods of time... Even thought they accurately knew the time when their own civilization would be conquered.

Can you show me the evidence that they new in advance that they would be conquered?

I still don't see how you, literally, debunked the whole alien, paradigm shift, consciousness rise, ascension issue.

Well anyone can research what I did, just got to Mexico…..I can only tell you what I was told from a travel guide – a professional. If you want to know yourself, go there

Just look into this info –
en.wikipedia.org...
en.wikipedia.org...

These links reveals how the consciousness rise and everything else has originally come from the book ‘The Mayan Factor: Path Beyond Technology.’ The book isn’t supported by professionals and so you can’t accept all of these conspiracies as realistic when you know they all came from that author.

You might have gone to the perfect place to study the subject, but at the wrong time. Try 600+ years ago when the civilization was thriving. Then of course you should also know the Mayan language, regardless of the time since you would probably have better information from someone who isn't payed to share certain information.

But isn’t that the same thing I can say to you? To prove the Mayans did predict the end of the world, you can only do that by doing what you’re telling me to do. I invite everyone to go to Mexico and find out for themselves. Is that so hard?

I'm not surprised at all that your Mexican tour-guide didn't express much information at all, and trust me the information is there, and I'm not talking aliens or any paranormal issue; I'm talking about simple correlations, advanced mathematical knowledge, deep understanding of cosmology...

If you’re not defending aliens or any supernatural matter then there’s no need for debate between us, they built their own observatory so they indeed could have had a very high knowledge of cosmology. The guide told me when the conquistadors came they burnt all the books the Mayans and other civilisations made about the stars because it was hearsay against the Christian faith. In the Mayan city they put all the books into a single room from all the cultures in and burned them. Apparently one book survived and is in a museum in Germany.

I don't think you are being highly sensitive to your own ability to research if you think that what your tour-guide shared with you is the ultimate, most complete analysis of the contents and stipulations of the Mayan calendar situation.

Well it was common knowledge to him, go to Mexico and find out for yourself then you can tell everyone what you found out was exactly what I’ve said and we can stop going on with this 2012 matter. The fact that you doubt what a professional says means you’d rather believe in conspiracies that have less credence to them then what I’ve put forth……….

Again, it seems you are completely disregarding the fact that the Maya aren't the only ones with a 2012 denotation in their calendar...

Again another coincidence, though sure there seems to be a lot of odd coincidence with the Mayans calendar ending on 2012 but that’s all it is. Can you show me that the other ones have 2012 ending on their Calender? The 2012 might mean something else on their calendar to what 2012 means for the Mayans – can you prove they mean the same thing? If not then they have nothing to do with each other and are just similar dates….nothing more

ou haven't answered my question. What is the theory about 2012 that you have debunked, then?

I’ve proven what anyone else can and what should have been done long ago, that all the 2012 conspiracies are based on a book that’s not even factually supported. And 2012 actually is just the end of the Mayan Calender – the end of a date of the Mayan age.

reply to post by andre18


So you talked to a tour guide and refer to wikipedia which is not always reliable. I wish I could be convinced that easily.

The verdict is still out IMO, nothing has been debunked here, not until 2012 atleast. We will all just have to wait and see.

I don't know how to create quotes on this forum yet... I'll just post as following:

"But isn’t that the same thing I can say to you? To prove the Mayans did predict the end of the world, you can only do that by doing what you’re telling me to do. I invite everyone to go to Mexico and find out for themselves. Is that so hard?" -Andre18

I haven't said anything about end of the world, I repeat.

Also, in various of your responses on the last post you insist that I or others go to Mexico. First of all, before stating the more obvious, you are assuming that regardless of what tour guide we get, they will all be speaking the same information. I wonder then, have you gone to enough depths to understand where your tour-guide got his share of knowledge from? Really, also the fact that being from Mexico does not make you a better archaeologist of local historical remains... The obvious event I was referring to is... You expect us to find the same tour-guide as you did?

Also, the 2012 issue in Mexico is actually more revered than you are aware of. I know, you haven't done your research. The native Mexicans are actually awaiting the return of Quetzalcoatl.

Yes, I know... But the Mayans had no beliefs of heavenly issues they just had a calendar based on cosmological wonders for the sake of having a way to keep track of what damn day it was...
2012... Hmm... I have to agree with the previous poster that until 2012, actual date, we cannot debunk any theory.

Also, seriously man, use Google please. I don't wanna have to surf around the internet for information which you should be researching on your own time anyways, specially since you are so keen on offering an official debunking on the 2012 theories.


Conspiracies? I believe none. Any conspiracy theory I hear I don't take as real until I have completed with at least a couple of years of research.

There were 4 books that remained, and if you really believe that the intense accuracy of the Mayan cosmological knowledge was based on a simple observatory made of rubble... then I'm sure you also consider that Santa Claus exists because there are rein-deers and sleds.

I appreciate the fact that whilst in Mexico you took off-time to question about the 2012 issue, I don't by any means find any logical, and I do mean logical, evidence to your statement about having debunked the 2012 theories.

And you speak a lot about coincidences.... Seems like you know a lot about the workings of coincidences. I'm intrigued to know if you do. What do you know about coincidences, friend?

[edit on 15-7-2008 by sllapur]

Originally posted by sllapur
I don't know how to create quotes on this forum yet... I'll just post as following:
[edit on 15-7-2008 by sllapur]

Top right of every post you can click on quote or respond to. Nice post by the way.

reply to post by Darth Logan


Ah... Very nice of you, thank you.

And thank you again.

O.k., off-topic post terminates...

Yeah we can wait until 2012 but at least until we arrive at 2012 can we stop believing the end of the world, or some ascension BS is going to happen. I can’t convince you guys anymore than what I’ve already tried.

I think because there’s been so much crap on 2012 for so long it’s hard for people to just disregard everything straight away but come on, ascension, the end of the world, aliens, get over it and grow up…………………

Before I went to Mexico even I believed there was something to 2012, so much so that I made a thread on my own ideas -
www.abovetopsecret.com...
But then I found out the truth. Nothing’s really going to happen – just another year.

you are assuming that regardless of what tour guide we get, they will all be speaking the same information.

Yes, I believe so, while I was there, there were many other tour guides with groups probably informing them the same information. The guide I was with seemed to know the other guides as well so they probably tell the tourists the same info about the Mayans.

I wonder then, have you gone to enough depths to understand where your tour-guide got his share of knowledge from?

No because I assume that guides become guides because of the knowledge they have, he wouldn’t be telling me what he told me unless it was fact. Sure depending on the experience he has in his field he might have less knowledgeable then other guides, but what he conveys would be what I would presume to be the same information any other guide would have told me.

You expect us to find the same tour-guide as you did?

Any will do

I have to agree with the previous poster that until 2012, actual date, we cannot debunk any theory.

Unless we use common sense… I claim everyone will turn into vampires on 2012 but a sane person will tell you that won’t happen, we can wait until 2012 to wait and see but it’s best to keep your saneness and be rational, nothing out of the ordinary is going to happen – maybe an alignment but we won’t be aligned for ever

[edit on 15-7-2008 by andre18]

don't worry andre. I think 2012 is complete BS too. don't worry thats the general consensus. It really has no more merit than the whole end of the world in 2000 or just about any one of nostradomus' predictions which if you look objectively are so vague that a horoscope is about as accurate.

also whered you go in mexico?

I too got to see those ruins. went to teotijuacan, tenochtitlan, uxmal, chechen itza. palenque, tikal, naranjo, talume, and a lot more I can remember the names of. what ruins did you see. would be cool to talk to someone else who actually has been to them too.

reply to post by BASSPLYR


I only saw the Aztec and Mayan cities.
When I climbed up the Aztec Sun Pyramid I was thinking it’s possible that some of the mountains surrounding the area could be undiscovered pyramids because a different guide told me both the Sun and Moon Pyramids were only found at the beginning of the 20th century, so there still could be undiscovered ruins. Most of the mountains were actually shaped like the pyramids so it’s possible....what do think?

The only thing I didn’t like about it was the fact that when they reconstructed the ruins they put those ugly dots everywhere to mark where reconstruction had been done. It takes away the realism of an ancient Aztec environment

[edit on 15-7-2008 by andre18]

Hello.


While i am of a neutral stance on this subject at present i honestly do not see how you have succeeded in debunking this.

How much research have you actually put in to this subject all up?

To say that you have debunked the theories surrounding 2012 is in itself, an extremely bold statement. If you are really serious about debunking this subject then some actual concrete, undeniable evidence is needed. Until such a time as this evidence is added to this thread by you, It is a dramatic exaggeration to claim that you have debunked 2012 theory. I'm not trying to sound harsh but this is truth.

I would love to see some good hard evidence on this subject as it is interesting

It is awesome that you got to go to Mexico, I'm definitely going to check out the amazing culture, architecture and craftsmanship when i get there.


A fellow Australian

Omega

[edit on 15/7/2008 by Omega85]

It seems you spent a long period of time taking in a lot of destruction scenarios about 2012... You keep bringing up how the world isn't going to end in 2012... Seriously, though, who cares? If the world ends it will be a relative pity since the Universe could enjoy experiencing the sensations of our planet given we move on to a harmonious global state.

Also, the fact that you are trying so hard to convince people seems to me like you are a bit afraid or very heavily worried about the possibility of people believing in destruction scenarios. Knowing how the psyche innately understands the quantum mechanics of the universe, it seems that it would mean to you that you need to convince people otherwise they themselves will bring about this scenario.

Look, it's not bad. Don't worry about it so much. No, you haven't debunked anything and as for the amount of "evidence" or "knowledge" you have presented... Take it this way... I go to Egypt, and I ask a local archaeologist/tour-guide what the reality of the pyramids is, and he says, "Oh, yeah they were built by men only and they took such a small amount of time cause men were really big back then. To the public, this isn't known as fact, but we know about that here."


Right... Why oh why if the information was really so clear to the natives, with such depth of culture, would it not already have been propagated not only in the media, but at least thoroughly within the circle of people who have, open-minded, studied this subject for so long. Why is it the numbers for 2012 just being an accident date are so small and add up to practically nothing, whilst the correlation with other cultures as well as the actual history of the Maya regarding 2012 seems to, undoubtedly, present a situation in which the year 2012 brings with itself some intense change, whether it be of collective or of personal consciousness.

Maybe all that 2012 is is that we will have survived a nuclear war in the upcoming years, and in 2012 everyone will have a personal revelation thinking, "Wow, I lived..." and for a time appreciate life for what it is, whilst others don't really think much of it at all.

But together with the harmonic convergence of 1984 (date check?) and the upcoming alignment, as well as the importance of cultural date resonances amongst many different civilizations, we find that 2012 is just simply not that easily disregarded as just another date.

If you ask me, whoever took the end of the world in 2000 thing seriously not only failed to do their research about Nostradamus (since he NEVER said that his predictions would all come true... in fact he stated that what he observed where the effects of trend-lines, and if mankind shifts the flux of events, the trend-line simply changes) and also probably about any kind of remote-viewing situation, since it was well known back then that nothing would happen (no asteroids were coming, no sudden implosion of Earth is possible nor explosion, no black hole would come out of nowhere and no alien civilization would invade us, etc. etc.).

You think you can solve issues by absorbing the information which you are given and spitting it out in a rhetorical manner, but you fail to realize that rhetoric only really takes effect when the statement is true. Because nothing that is false can disguise itself as true and stay that way, as everything true will shine through any veil.

I had a tour-guide in Chichen Itza and Tulum when I went to Mexico. The guy knew nothing, the guy was a tour-guide/archaeologist... but his knowledge was more like a long-term sight-seer/guy trying to make a few bucks... Honestly, and I'm latin... I know how the people think.

All I'm saying is; stop trying so hard to convince everyone since there is no point and it's actually very immature and just take the time to do a lot of research... If you do, you do, if you don't, you don't... Either way is fine, but you won't be taken seriously unless you do.

[edit on 15-7-2008 by sllapur]

I only saw the Aztec and Mayan cities.
When I climbed up the Aztec Sun Pyramid I was thinking it’s possible that some of the mountains surrounding the area could be undiscovered pyramids because a different guide told me both the Sun and Moon Pyramids were only found at the beginning of the 20th century
[edit on 15-7-2008 by andre18]

As far as i know, the currently known Aztec pyramids were also thought to be mountains until somebody found them out, i was also told when i went there about a year ago, by our guide, that the pyramid of the Sol was semi destructed by some guy who thought there was hidden treasures inside, so the current pyramid as it is is not how it was before that, seems the idiot who was trying to find gold blow a big chunk of it using dynamite or something like that, so it had to be restored and that's why it is so messed up.

yeah a lot of mayan stuff was buried under what they thought were mountains too. I noticed a lot of pyramid shaped hills around teotejucan too. Loved the pyramids of the sun and moon, although I did get bitten by fire ants halfway up the temple of the sun. man those things are a lot bigger than they seem and a lot harder. to climb than we expect (the pyramids not the ants, which where the biggest ants I'd ever seen) everybody tries just walking up them, halfway up everybody is on all fours trying to climb up them, about a third the way up everybody just grabs the chains and drag themselves up. but once you get to the top man is it worth it. plus the sense of accomplishment to having actually climbed one is very tangible.

The reason Mayans believe this is the end of the world as we know it is because this is the end of their era. Every 5,00 years or so, there is some sort of event than ends the world in order to start it over again. If something steps in to counter that- crystal skulls, for instance, though I'm not certain of all of the theories and there are likely a lot of ways- then no rebirth happens. They also believe that other beings- aliens, spirits, or gods, for example, depending also on different cultures- may help to stop this from happening, or act as a catalyst.

So nothing's debunked until nothing happens.

To say I haven’t debunked 2012 is to say it’s impossible to debunk the theory of alien contact or ascension. There is no proof for any 2012 claim. These theories are originally based on a book, one book. That book isn’t even based on factual evidence. There is a much proof for any of the 2012 claims as there is for me to claim Hitler will be reborn on 2012 – how can you debunk my claim? I have no proof but neither does any other 2012 claim so why believe in higher consciousness when my theory’s just as plausible, it has just as much evidence as any other.

It’s true I don’t have any evidence put forward that can be analysed, just my word – but, my claim actually makes sense unlike every other claim, unlike other 2012 claims anyone can go to Mexico an find out for themselves if my claim is true or false. You can’t go into space and look for aliens, you can’t analyse people’s level of spiritually, you can’t actually test any of the 2012 claims but you can with mine. We’re talking about commonsense here, Jesus Christ is not coming back, aliens are not coming down in their ships, we are not all ascending into beings of light etc

Get a life!

[edit on 16-7-2008 by andre18]

I just wonder what's going to happen to all the people on this website when and if 2012 passes and nothing substantial happens. Are they going to eat their hats? Are they going to latch onto a brand new date? Are they going to deny that they ever believed that 2012 had any significance?

reply to post by andre18


Surprisingly enough, you really haven't done any kind of research about anything at all. Yes, you can go to space and find what are, in sight of the evidence, space-ships of extraterrestrials. There is more evidence to show this than to show the opposite. Seriously, do some research.

Second, the fact that you have failed to debunk the theories encircling the 2012 date doesn't mean that someone else will fail. It only means that you don't have the knowledge that you presume you do. No, the theories of 2012 don't come from a single book. I'm not going to explain it to you, at all. When you do the research necessary, you'll understand just from where the theories spring-up. Also, you can see a person's spiritual self, in fact you can take photographs of their auras.

Man, you really haven't done much research at all, have you?