J. S. Bach: music and occult knowledge

Maybe you've heard about the theory - or speculation - that J. S. Bach's music (and, most likely, not only his) might contain certain constructions based on the Qabbalah and/or other "occult" numeric systems.

I've been trying to find freely available (i.e. non-JSTOR etc.) material on the subject, but it's not exactly abundant.

You can find some intelligent and/or intriguing insights HERE (scroll down).

And HERE you'll find a forum discussion about numeric symbolism in Bach's works.

And I hope to be adding more material in the future.
Unless you beat me to it, of course - which, I hope very much, will be the case.







[edit on 27-6-2008 by Vanitas]

I don't know anything about BACH'S work, but I know that the tuning frequencies were changed by the Catholics, and you can get a tuning fork of this Solfeggio system on the web. I have wanted to but have not yet. This frequency apparently has some physical effects on its listeners, or practicioners. Who began IT? It may have gone back to very ancient times, when music was purportedly taught to man by aliens/angels.

reply to post by Gregarious


Well, I was born and raised a Catholic (although I suspect that in continental Europe it means something considerably different than in England or, especially, in the USA), and it's the first time I hear about it...

I'll see what I can find about it.
Meanwhile, I'd be thrilled to hear from any "old music" lovers.

reply to post by Gregarious


Oh, you mean this:

Forgotten in Time

Interesting.
Thanks.

Not exactly "occult" knowledge, except in the sense that it is not discernible at first "sight".

Was Bach a Mathematician?

Apparently, there are more ways of signing a work than just scribble down your name.

I think Beethoven was more "occult" than Bach, even though Bach obviously incorporated insane mathematical rigors into his works, especially his fugues. The things he did with fugues, and with the spelling of his name in various pieces, have more to do with fugal music theory and common techniques for writing contrapuntally than anything overtly esoteric, I think. The techniques he employed were known in his day to musicians, but Bach mastered them like nobody else. Bach's Art of Fugue is ridiculous with its use of fugal techniques, and so are the Goldberg Variations. They are like living textbooks on how fugal techniques can be used almost exclusively, without the music sounding academic or contrived.

Also worth mentioning is that back then, intervals weren't thought of as they conventionally are today. People back then understood better how the intervals were related physically. For example, what today we know mainly as the musical interval of the 5th, a musician back then might better recognize numerically as a ratio of 3:2 (2/3rds the length of a string). An octave: 2:1 (half the length), whereas it is considered the "8th" diatonic note today. This has to do with knowledge going back to Pythagoras, but wasn't really considered "occult," either.


In Beethoven's personal journal, you can find references to ancient Egyptian mythology/philosophy, inspirational quotes that he took down from non-Christian texts. Beethoven never regularly attended a church in his adult life, despite his time and place, and raised some eyebrows because of it. He once took a sort of pilgrimage to ancient Greece and visited the ruins there, ancient Greece being basically the epicenter for distribution of ancient spiritual knowledge through Europe. He was more openly independent and daring spiritually, though he was careful never to say anything heretical. He was exposed to masonic ideas, and several of his friends were freemasons, though there isn't any evidence that Beethoven himself ever joined the fraternity. There is a book called "Beethoven and the Spiritual Path" that shows a lot of the spiritual symbolism in Beethoven's work, taking a lot directly from his own journals. Beethoven's Missa Solemnis mass broke from conventional masses in a lot of respects, and was heavily laden with religious symbolism.

Speaking of Freemasons and composers, Mozart was a known freemason. His opera The Magic Flute is full of masonic imagery, which has a lot in common with esoteric and "occult" subjects.

[edit on 29-6-2008 by bsbray11]

The things he did with fugues, and with the spelling of his name in various pieces, have more to do with fugal music theory and common techniques for writing contrapuntally than anything overtly esoteric, I think.

As a matter of fact, I think so too.
(Then again, I might be wrong.)

I'll definitely have a look at Beethoven's journals.
And then, maybe, I'll be back to discuss some more... :-)

Thank you - it's a very precious piece of information to me.

You might also want to check out Douglas R. Hofstadter's "Godel, Escher, Bach: An Eternal Golden Braid", for more on the mathematical, and possibly quantum physical aspects of Bach's work

I love the logic of Bach's music!

Here are some excerpts from that book ("Beethoven and the Spiritual Path" by David Tame) for anyone that might be interested.

Excerpt from one of Beethoven's letters in 1823 (pg. 59):

There is no loftier mission than to approach the Godhead more nearly than other mortals and by means of that contact to spread the rays of the Godhead through the human race.

From pg. 62:

Esoteric teachings were not widespread or widely known during Beethoven's lifetime, but on the occasions that he did come across them, they appear to have held great personal importance to him because they corresponded to his own ineer experiences. For example, on one of his manuscript pages, he copied out the following passages from Hindu scripture:

["]God is immaterial; as He is invisible, He can therefore have no form. But from what we are able to perceive in His works we conclude that He is eternal ...
Brahman; His mind is self-existent. He, the Almighty, is present in every part of space. His omniscience is self-inspired, and His conception includes every other. Of His there is all-embracing attributes the greatest is omniscience. For there is no threefold kind of being - it is independent of everything...["]

Something he copied down about Greek philosophers (pg. 63):

There is nothing more elevated than the simple grandeur with which they spoke of the creator of the universe. In order to distinguish him the more emphatically they gave him no name. A name, said they, is only a need for pointing a difference; he who is only, has no need of a name, for there is no one with whom he could be confounded. Under an ancient monument of Isis were to be read the words: "I AM THAT WHICH IS," and upon a pyramid at Sais the strange primeval inscription: "I AM ALL, THAT IS, THAT WAS, THAT WILL BE; NO MORTAL HATH EVER ME UNVEILED."

From another book, "Late Beethoven" by Maynard Solomon, that mentions the same thing on pages 68 and 69:

We cannot altogether know what led Beethoven to copy, frame, and keep in full view upon his desk during his later years a German translation of the famous inscriptions about the Veil of Isis:

["]I am that which is.
I am everything that is, that was, and that shall be. No mortal man has lifted my veil.
He is unique unto himself, and it is to this singularity that all things owe their existence.["]

Beethoven's interest in these inscriptions from ancient Egyptian and Orphic ritual sources demonstrates his attraction to a symbol that was appropriated in the rites of Freemasons and Illuminists.

reply to post by Bhadhidar



I have read Hofstader - it's very interesting!

To me, Bach is the closest (in music) to the "voice of God", if anyone knows what I mean.

It's truly transcendent music.
Is it because it is mathematically "correct"?
Maybe.
After all... isn't everything in the universe math? :-)




[edit on 1-7-2008 by Vanitas]

reply to post by bsbray11


Thank you very much!

I am sure - well, I hope - many will find it interesting and illuminating.

reply to post by Vanitas


I do know what you mean - I've thought the exact same thing

his work affects me in an weird way - good way - but strange

Beethoven is my guy - I've always thought of his work as a private conversation with God - or the universe

sometimes a debate - or argument even

BACH decoded:

273 = HAB = Hiram Abiff = Ch V R M A B I V
640 = HKT = Hiram, King of Tyre = Ch V R M M L K Tz V R
465 = SKI = King Solomon = M L K sh L M H
1378 = 273 + 640 + 465 = SUM (1..52)
1378 = birth year of Christian Rosenkreuz

books.google.com... (Page 1)


Johan Sebastion Bach was born:
BORN = March 21 1685 Year 307 in Rosicrucian calendar
DIED = July 28 1750 is Year 372 in Rosicrucian calendar

Bach lived 23869 days.
www.arkrat.net...

BACH = 2 + 1 + 3 + 8 = 14 (MIRROR IS ) JS BACH = 41

Bach used the following translation table to Gematria. (Same as Mozart)

A=1
B=2
C=3
D=4
E=5
F=6
G=7
H=8
I.J=9
K=10
L=11
M=12
N=13
O=14
P=15
Q=16
R=17
S=18
T=19
U,V=20
W=21
X=22
Y=23
Z=24

J.S. Bach: The archtitect and servant of the spiritual:

www.tjako.sollie-dsl.nl...
www.tjako.sollie-dsl.nl...
www.tjako.sollie-dsl.nl...


[edit on 5-9-2009 by hawk123]

This you may find interesting

reply to post by prof-rabbit




You bet I do.
Thanks!

Originally posted by Vanitas
reply to post by Bhadhidar

 

I have read Hofstader - it's very interesting!

To me, Bach is the closest (in music) to the "voice of God", if anyone knows what I mean.

It's truly transcendent music.
Is it because it is mathematically "correct"?
Maybe.
After all... isn't everything in the universe math? :-)

[edit on 1-7-2008 by Vanitas]

Mathematically correct is described by:
Kees van Houten Marinus Kasbergen

Above persons wrote a book "BACH EN HET GETAL" , which is in English: "BACH AND THE NUMBER"

Only the French version is online.
books.google.com...


CREDO = 43 (Trinity of CREDO = 3 x 43 = 129)

www.its.caltech.edu...


The word 'Credo' is sung 7 X 7 = 49 times
The phrase 'in unum Deum' is sung 7 X 12 = 84 times
At the end of the fugue in "Patrem omnipotentem" Bach inserts in his own hand the total number of measures/bars: 84 = (permutation: C=3 X A=1 X (B=2,H=8) the letters BACH rearranged, but this is permissible, as well as combining the B and H into one number as he did here) 12 X 7 = 84 a combination of time and eternity!

www.bach-cantatas.com...

Mozart used exactly the same translation table as BACH.
Mozarts word "zauberfloete" = 129 = "CREDO" trinity of BACH.
books.google.com... (Page 137)

And again a Rosicrucian connection for both Mozart and Bach.

reply to post by hawk123


I find this endlessly interesting...
I am just glad somebody else does too!

Thanks!

Originally posted by Vanitas
reply to post by hawk123

 

I find this endlessly interesting...
I am just glad somebody else does too!

Thanks!

This thread might also be interesting.
It includes the explanation of Solfeggio 528 (Baphomet) code.

www.abovetopsecret.com...



[edit on 5-9-2009 by hawk123]

Originally posted by prof-rabbit
This you may find interesting

this messed with my head a bit

Originally posted by phiktion

this messed with my head a bit

Do you mean that in a good way, or... ?
Believe it or not, I am really interested.


(Kicking myself for having put this in "skunk works"...
What a skanky idea that was!)