House Democrats call for nationalization of refineries

reply to post by maria_stardust


When I see statements referring to "Big Oil", as people like to refer to the US oil and gas industry, I like to attempt to educate the creator of that statement.

First of all, if you take the oil reserve holdings of "Big Oil", they account FOR LESS THAN 5% OF ALL OF THE KNOWN WORLD'S OIL RESERVES.

Hardly "Big Oil"!!!!

Next, people like to bash them about the "excessive profits". Again, education is needed here.

The "Big Oil" companies earn a net after-tax income per gallon of gas of 8.4 cents per gallon after investing TRILLIONS of dollars to find, drill for, produce, transport, and refine into the gasoline that you easily drive up to a pump and obtain anytime you need it. Based on $4.00/gal, that is a 2.1% net profit margin. There isn't another industry that can stay in business operating at that level. Just ask any leader of any company what they think about that profit margin. The only thing that makes this possible for "Big Oil" is the massive size of the market, the amount of gallons consumed each and every day.

Now, take the government assholes that sit in their ivory towers in Washington and point their greedy fingers at "Big Oil". They take a federal gasoline excise TAX of 18.9 CENTS PER GALLON AND DO NOT INVEST IN OR PRODUCE ONE GALLON OF GAS that you easily drive up to a pump and obtain anytime you need it.

Now, knowing this, WHO IS THE BIGGEST CULPRIT BEHIND HIGH GAS PRICES?

And, on top of this, these same insane power hungry greedy politicians have stood in the way of the capitalistic systems that could have prevented all of this to begin with.

I am fortunate enough to have helped build a nuclear project in Texas in the 1970s, the last time we had any sanity left in regards to the energy industry in this country. There are two small reactors operating at the South Texas Nuclear Plant. They have been operating perfectly with multiple safety shut down systems to prevent accidents. EACH AND EVERY DAY, THESE TWO REACTORS SAVE 250,000 BARRELLS OF OIL. Just think how few reactors it would take to eliminate the importation of the present 17 million barrels of oil each day at a cost of $700 BILLION dollars a year. On top of that, the majority of that massive amount of money is being sent to countries that WANT TO DESTROY US. HOW INSANE IS THAT???

So educate yourself before jumping on the "Big Oil' bandwagon.

My 2 cents worth.

Originally posted by Anonymous ATS
reply to post by mybigunit

 

With all respect, government control is NOT the answer. Part of the problem is that drilling offshore and ANWAR has bee blocked. And the oil companies are obliged to go out into the global market to buy oil with a weakened dollar. And government obstructionism makes the cost of building new refineries prohibitive. To say nothing of government obstruction of the most viable alternative energy source, nuclear power. As for elected officials, I am sure most assume office with the best of intentions. But the corporate culture in Congress and elsewhere is irredeemably corrupt. They are not there to serve our interests. They are parasites gorging themselves and their families from the public purse. CEO's eventually can be called to account but the shareholders. Oil company shareholders is US! That is, if yuou have a pension or a mutual fund or any kind of retirement investment. And government can have a supervisory role, but they cannot be allowed to have direct control over the oil refineries.

With all due repect we already are nationalized. First off there is many thousands in fact millions of acres that is leased to oil that is not being used. I know not all of it has oil but some of it does for sure. Second from 1975 to 2000 there was only 1 permit pulled for a refinery. More so than the supply and demand part the oil is high because the dollar is weak plain and simple as that.

Now as far as being nationalized like I said we already are. Our tax payer dollars go to subsidizing big oil in their many ventures. That OUR money. On top of that if then need a new coutry to drill in who goes in and does the killing. OUR military funded by OUR tax dollars. Its not like Exxon Mobile hired Blackwater to go in and invade the countries so they can get the oil. ANWAR is the biggest cop out there are plenty of places to drill besides there. I personally think off the shores is a good spot as long as its not in seeing distance from shore so it doesnt affect the multi billion dollar tourism industry.

Now I will agree with you the government in its current form probably should not nationalize oil because our government is way to corrupt and holds way more power than it should but if you read a previous post of mine a Mybigunit administration nationalizing oil would pay for my mostly small government to where we could eliminate all income taxes. But its not fair that our money and lives are going right into the pockets of Big Oil execs while all of us get whacked its just not fair. There is a reason why Venezuela only pays $.12 a gallon. Our oil companies pump enough oil to supply us with oil and have enough to sell on the open market. No instead we sell it all on the open market and import all of ours costing a ton of money. Oil is a national security issue also and the government through its policies have us WAY to dependent on oil and even in your statement you didnt mention any other energy besides nuclear so your notion is not helping our situation either. Like Bush said in 2000 in his sane years we are addicted to oil. that is the problem.

The annon-poster above has it right.

The US government is being used by the" bunny huggers" and stopping the USA from being energy independent.

Why in the world would anyone want the oil industry to be run by the Federal Government? So they can top load it with dunderheads and run it into the ground like they do most every thing else.

If you don't like the price of gasoline now just let the Government run the industry.

Congress won't let new refineries be built, won't let new nuclear electric plants be built, won't let coal fire electrical plant be built.

This is both a Democrat and Republican problem, both are using the energy problem as a political football and we the people are getting run over by their desire for power.

The Market will work itself out of this mess if there is more supply than demand.

With all of the new technology we have every year , new refineries would be more efficient, nuclear plants more safe, coal fire plant more efficient.

Problem is we have a congress that is not efficient.


Roper

Originally posted by MrdDstrbr
Government control and oversight over things like oil, natural resources, currency and money supply, farming and agriculture, mainstream media outlets, etc, is way better than allowing control of all those things slip into private corporate hands (FASCISM), wouldn't you say?

Do you actually read what you post or do you just post whatever comes into your head?

I know your a socialist leaner but honestly, do you think the Bush administration (or some future facsimile) would be able to control all of that with our best interests?

and.. control over media??? are you serious?

Aren't you describing China, Russia, Cuba and Venezuela?

If it hadn't been brought up yet. After visiting Mexico on my honeymoon, I learned that Mexico nationalized it's oil. The company is called PEMEX, and it's prices are never labled. The price of oil is hidden, until they come in the store to pay.

American consumers can look forward to that, or they can look forward to oil just becoming another tax so that we can subsidize the cost. Buy your subscription to oil everyone, oil insurance. Get your pre-rationed 50 dollars a month in oil, yessireebob oil. We store your balance, on this handy dandy chip which we stick you with. Good old water, and oil, and food chip, get your money-invested subscription.

If they take complete control of all of these resources, we will never see it coming that we do indeed pay 50% of our paycheck to the government under the disguise of assistance. Especially if the government gives us the huge subprime bail out. If the goverment steps in, we will pay them more in taxes disguised as nationalizing and socializing.

If they are fair about it, and we get to spend our captialist dollars in consumer luxury, I got no problem with it.

The way things are, is not new, it's just in a new way. We all act like goverments in history, were not the same way as they are now. We just have a younger, and the most powerful country to live in. At least we have the freedoms we do, our economy relies on it.

-ADHD

Originally posted by gormly
honestly, do you think the Bush administration (or some future facsimile) would be able to control all of that with our best interests?

The bush administration no. But not all administrations are not as disfunctional as the shrub's.

In my lifetime some have come close but nowhere near as bad.

Nationalizing resources like oil is not the same as communism by a long shot.

In case you missed it:

Quite a few countries own their oil companies... Mexico for one. And remember that Mexico's oil company was so well managed that they were able to pay off the loans Clinton gave them well ahead of time... with interest. And, given the nature of America's slavery to oil who would you rather control it, CEO's of publically held companies out to make a profit, the people be damned, or the government?

I personally believe that certain key national resources should not be controlled by for profit companies... Remember the energy crisis in California in 2001? Everyone swore it was an issue of supply and demand when in reality they were being Enroned.

I maintain that the current oil crisis is the same sort of thing.

[edit on 23-6-2008 by grover]

reply to post by maria_stardust


Finally, some body in this government start to use his/her brain.
Ignoring all political gaims - in general the role of government is to preserve the rule of the game. Trade is game, where at this moment the big oil + 10 bigest banks (leading by Golden Sachs) already own the game.
In order to preserve the state, any government need to restructure the Wall Street as first - all stocks need to split into 4 groups as a)lifesupporting - food + energy b)not direct life suporting - homes and clothes and transportation c) industrial production and d)entertainment.
Betting will be alowed only for d). The rest can have margins equal to inflation % + 15% to 25%.
Second - all investment institutions should be split up to 500 million - this will alowed better competion and avoid monopoly.
Third - all investment institutions should pay back / return all lowns for investment. This will spur the local industry.
Four - Congress need to increase the FDIC insurance upt o 500 000. The old 100 000 was created at the time when a car was 3000 and home was 35 000.
Fift - IRS will be replaced with new institution - any company / individual before any transaction should file detail calculation ( material, energy, man power, miscelaneous + profit). Any profit up to 25% should be free of tax. Above to 100% - logaritmic tax will be apply. Any profit over 100% should be prosecuted as racket. Profit over 25% can not be transfer to the copnsumers. The profit can not include advertisement.
These and more are the old rules of real capitalizm - at this moment we are in "mafia ecconomy"
Let me know if you need more explanation.
The Red Wind

Originally posted by Parabol

Yeah that's my problem to, I don't profess to know much about nationalization of resources but seeing our govt and oil grow more together doesn't sound good. But then how much power does that take away from Big Oil?

Regardless of how much power it takes from big oil, it is yet another step toward socialism. I don't know about anyone else's view but mine is simple: create a new energy paradigm that does not require dependence on oil at all.

reply to post by Parabol


Are you kidding me?! Give the government something else to screw up! The government doesn't do anything well except pork-barrel spending to either insure getting politicians re-elected or government workers justifying their jobs - which thet can't get fired from unless they commit a major felony.

In the interests of clarifying this debate, I would like to offer the following:

In a Free-Market Society, government does not control production at all. A producer is allowed to make as much or as little of their product as they wish. The producer is allowed to charge as much or as little as they wish. The government does not interfere in this process at all. The government may impose some restrictions, e.g. no refining in zoned residential areas, but that’s all. That’s, generally, not what we have anymore.

In a Fascist/Nazi Society private/corporate profit and ownership is still allowed. However, the State may dictate quotas of materials to be produced and regulate prices thereof. The individual is allowed to profit within the guidelines set by the State. That’s pretty much what we have now.

In Communism, nothing is owned by the individual/corporation. Profit is non-existent. Everything is owned by the State and produced for all. We’re not there yet…

It’s all a spectrum. A matter of degrees. Infra-red to ultra-violet. White to black.

Thus, when the government proposes nationalized control over the oil industry, they are only taking the frequency further into Fascism - more control over prices and profit; less free choice, less free markets.

Perhaps, somewhere in the spectrum there is a perfect wavelength, a perfect balance… and that is debatable. However, there is a point where the white light of freedom becomes imperceptible and everything begins to fade into the shadow of tyranny. Proposing more government control of oil prices is certainly shifting the hue towards black.