The 'New Crusaders'...

I've been contemplating posting this for a couple of weeks, but I sort of lost motivation recently, heh. However, in the spirit of 'change' (well done SO et al), I think it might be worth a try.

Anyway. Here we go. I haven't seen such a thread posted, but I haven't been around much, so forgive me if this is elsewhere I have overlooked.

.................

Onwards Christian Soldiers...

So, what's been happening in Iraq and Afghanistan lately? We occasionally hear of deaths of soldiers and civilians, but there are also other insidious events going on in those unstable places. These don't get much airtime - maybe we should blame the librul media...

FALLUJAH, Iraq — At the western entrance to the Iraqi city of Fallujah Tuesday, Muamar Anad handed his residence badge to the U.S. Marines guarding the city. They checked to be sure that he was a city resident, and when they were done, Anad said, a Marine slipped a coin out of his pocket and put it in his hand.

Aww, so he was giving him dosh to feed his kiddies?

No, not exactly...

Out of fear, he accepted it, Anad said. When he was inside the city, the college student said, he looked at one side of the coin. "Where will you spend eternity?" it asked.

He flipped it over, and on the other side it read, "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. John 3:16."

"They are trying to convert us to Christianity," said Anad, a Sunni Muslim like most residents of this city in Anbar province. At home, he told his story, and his relatives echoed their disapproval: They'd been given the coins, too, he said.

linky

Evangelicals appear to be attempting to turn the US army into the new crusaders. Probably took Bush's 'crusade' slip to heart. Maybe even a Coulter-like 'invade their countries and convert them to christianity'.

So, is that all? Just a few coins?

A recent article published on the website of Mission Network News reported that Bible Pathway Ministries, a fundamentalist Christian organization, has provided thousands of a special military edition of its Daily Devotional Bible study book to members of the 101st Airborne Division of Fort Campbell, Kentucky, currently stationed in Iraq, the project "came into being when a chaplain in Iraq (who has since finished his tour) requested some books from Bible Pathway Ministries (BPM)."

Just ensuring the 'spiritual health' of the christian soldiers?

No, not exactly...

Chief Warrant Officer Rene Llanos of the 101st Airborne told Mission Network News, "the soldiers who are patrolling and walking the streets are taking along this copy, and they're using it to minister to the local residents."

"Our division is also getting ready to head toward Afghanistan, so there will be copies heading out with the soldiers," Llanos said. "We need to pray for protection for our soldiers as they patrol and pray that God would continue to open doors. The soldiers are being placed in strategic places with a purpose. They're continuing to spread the Word."

linky

According to Chaplain Mickel, who was doing his evangelizing while passing out food in the predominantly Sunni village of Ad Dawr, "I am able to give them tracts on how to be saved, printed in Arabic. I wish I had enough Arabic Bibles to give them as well. The issue of mailing Arabic Bibles into Iraq from the U.S. is difficult (given the current postal regulations prohibiting all religious materials contrary to Islam except for personal use of the soldiers). But the hunger for the Word of God in Iraq is very great, as I have witnessed first-hand."

linky

A few responses I've heard to this is that it's just a one-off. A minor issue, that the 'mission' is not being affected by such actions. Maybe, maybe not. But I don't feel it's as minor an issue as some like to think.

If you are american, the actions of a certain group of your citizens are motivated to turn your army into proselytising christian 'crusaders'. How do they go about this? In as underhand a process as they are using the US military to 'spread the word'.

One group active in this phenomena is the Campus Crusade for Christ (CCC) military wing. This group state:

Young recruits are under great pressure as they enter the military at their initial training gateways. The demands of drill instructors push recruits and new cadets to the edge. This is why they are most open to the 'good news.' We target specific locations, like Lackland AFB and Fort Jackson, where large numbers of military members transition early in their career. These sites are excellent locations to pursue our strategic goals." As Maj. Gen. Bob Dees, U.S. Army (ret.), the Executive Director of CCC's Military Ministry, explained in the October 2005 issue of the organization's "Life and Leadership" newsletter, "Militaries exercise, generally speaking, the most intensive and purposeful indoctrination program of citizens.

linky

So they target training gateways to access mentally weak young cadets and turn them into the new military evangelical missionaries. These same troops are then used as tools to spread their faith. In a war zone.

At this point, the Officers Christian Fellowship (OCF) involves 14,000 officers, this group is rallying to 'create a spiritually transformed U.S. military'. But is it a worry?

Mikey Weinstein, a U.S. Air Force Academy graduate, former JAG, a former White House counsel under President Reagan, and former general counsel to Texas billionaire and two-time presidential candidate Ross Perot, sums it up in a nutshell: "The United States armed forces have unconstitutionally and inextricably intertwined and interbred their already dubious Iraqi mission with virulently fundamentalist Christian missionary organizations and defense contractors to create a pervasive and pernicious cabal, a fundamentalist Christian 'Military-Parachurch-Industrial Proselytizing Complex' as it were. It constitutes nothing less than a seething internal national security threat to our country, every bit as formidable as the external national security threat confronting us from a resurgent Taliban and an al Qaida that is at LEAST as strong as it was on 9-11."

linky

At the minimum, I would think using the state military apparatus to spread a form of religion is not exactly congruent with the US constitution. And is pretty, lets be blunt here, stupid behaviour to be undertaking in the unstable zones in which we placed ourselves (or more correctly - our young men and women). Indeed, it is against basic US military rules, but these people only follow the rules of their book (well, they pretend to).

At the extreme, this is seen by some as a 'potential internal national security threat'.

Should you be worried? I certainly don't like the idea of the US military winning hearts and minds for a certain 2000 year old dude, motivated by one fervent virulent form of the christian faith.

Have fun!

[edit on 11-6-2008 by melatonin]

Yup feed on the people that are about to go into harms way. That has been the tactic of Christians for centuries. "O your going into battle and might die? Well heres a bible you don't want to die and go to hell right?"

Aye, it's a pretty bad state of affairs.

Firstly, these groups are specifically targetting emotionally and mentally stressed young men and women for assimilation.

Secondly, these groups and their advocates are subverting the military mission illegally to spread their faith in war-torn countries using soldiers in positions of power.

Yet really just a minor murmur in the US about this.

[edit on 11-6-2008 by melatonin]

very interesting

i gess soon it will be zealots fighting zealots

Originally posted by melatonin
At the minimum, I would think using the state military apparatus to spread a form of religion is not exactly congruent with the US constitution.

On that point, you'll have to show me the article or clause that prohibits soldiers from passing out coins or Bibles. That is an article or clause in the U.S. Constitution. You won't find it.

If this is a crusade, it's a crusade to free the oil from the Muslims. It's not the traditionaly "Free the Holy Land" type crusade of the past. Now if you find instances or directions to shoot those that don't accept coins or Bibles, I'll be on your side. Until that time I think it's just speculation to make this assesment. It's always been about the oil. Our government doesn't care if they are Christians or Muslims as long as they'll continue to give the U.S. daily infusions of the oil that greases this massive machine. There are millions of Muslims in Sudan, and lots of genocide and murder. Why doesn't the U.S. invade that country? O, because they don't have billions and billions of barrels of oil in the ground. A crusade for the Holy Oil for sure.

The fact that some groups of soldiers are passing out Bibles doesn't really bother me. It's as eventful as the news that some soldiers read Playboy magazines in a country that hides it's women behind piles of fabric. Let me tell you from my experience in the U.S. armed forces. Most members of the armed forces are drunken, swearing individuals whose shadow never darkens the door of any church. The number of Playboy magazines passed out to Iraqi civilians is probably 2-3 times the number of Bibles passed out. If the troops had their way, there would be a bar on every corner and strip clubs in all the abandoned presidential palaces over there.

reply to post by dbates


The problem is, they're in uniform. That is, they are representatives of their respective branches of our armed forces, and are acting in a government capacity. Does your employer allow you to do door-to-door evangelism while on the clock, using the company car, while wearing the company emblem, and going "Hi, I'm from (company), have you heard the good news about our lord and savior?"

I'll bet your boss would be really annoyed with you if you did that.

Originally posted by TheWalkingFox
I'll bet your boss would be really annoyed with you if you did that.

I'm sure most bosses would be. Wasn't there a law passed a few years back forbidding government employees from visibly practicing and/or preaching religion while on the clock?

On the other hand, W probably thinks it's a wonderful idea. After all, doesn't he think we're a christian nation with christian values? I mean, except for that whole pesky separation of church and state thing, and the freedom of religion thing, and all the non-christian americans. I mean those mormon, jewish, pagan, muslim, hindu, and otherwise differently religioned people in america aren't real americans anyway, so they don't count, right?

Wow I can understand how that would upset Muslims.

here is a list of a few other things that get Muslims upset.

www.newenglishreview.org...

I let the reply wait for a bit, db. I guessed the thread would slide - so this is 80% reply, 20% shameless bump, heh. Perhaps this sort of less speculative real-world conspiracy isn't so interesting.

Originally posted by dbates
On that point, you'll have to show me the article or clause that prohibits soldiers from passing out coins or Bibles. That is an article or clause in the U.S. Constitution. You won't find it.

I think it would be a first ammendment issue - essentially using state apparatus to promote religion

Moreover, it also contravenes military regulations.

"Such fundamentalist Christian proselytizing DIRECTLY violates General Order 1A, Part 2, Section J issued by General Tommy Franks on behalf of the United States Central Command (USCENTCOM) back in December of 2000 which strictly prohibits "proselytizing of any religion, faith or practice," said Weinstein, a former Reagan administration White House counsel, former general counsel to presidential candidate H. Ross Perot, and former Air Force Judge Advocate General (JAG).

Linky

I'm also quite sure that the US government made great efforts to ensure the local populations of Iraq and Afghanistan knew their actions were not religiously motivated.

One soldier has recently been removed from duty for proselytising to the local Iraqis.

If this is a crusade, it's a crusade to free the oil from the Muslims. It's not the traditionaly "Free the Holy Land" type crusade of the past. Now if you find instances or directions to shoot those that don't accept coins or Bibles, I'll be on your side. Until that time I think it's just speculation to make this assesment. It's always been about the oil. Our government doesn't care if they are Christians or Muslims as long as they'll continue to give the U.S. daily infusions of the oil that greases this massive machine.

I did sort of signify that there was a primary 'mission', not really at issue from the perspective of the thread. Whether the primary mission be to produce a more stable Iraq or to siphon off their oil, not really important.

What I'm pointing out is that certain groups in the US are 'conspiring' to turn your military into 'government paid missionaries' (their own words), and have their minions acting in this way in unstable 'warzones'. At minimum, it is a bit of stinking scandal which appears to have support of some big-wigs in the Pentagon.

So, at this point they don't have the power to push your government into different situations (i.e., open up new areas for the 'great commission'). But they are opportunistic enough to use the current military 'missions' to proselytise via armed soldiers, attempting to convert the indigenious population against both federal and military law.

The fact that some groups of soldiers are passing out Bibles doesn't really bother me. It's as eventful as the news that some soldiers read Playboy magazines in a country that hides it's women behind piles of fabric.

Is pr0n illegal in the US military (honest question)?

Is this issue even comparable to a number of hot-blooded men fawning over a centrefold?

Also, anyone bothered by their approach to produce the new armed 'government paid missionaries'? The actions these people are taking are directly comparable to the brainwashing techniques of religious cults - specifically targeting mentally-strained individuals for assimilation.

Does it not worry anyone that these people are prepared to flout federal and military laws? Do they think they are really above the law? Are people happy to have groups (thus far successfully) acting to make the US military armed missionaries? Indeed, it even appears the US defence department is allowing this to happen (giving these groups access to military camps).

Does the evangelical 'mission' trump the laws of the state? What next?

[edit on 15-6-2008 by melatonin]

reply to post by dbates


it goes against the first amendment for the same reason that a teacher at a public school proselytizing for any religion to their students is against the first amendment, they're employees of the government at their place of employment doing something that is inherently religious on more than a personal level.

should they be allowed to practice their religion on their own while they're deployed? of course

should they be spreading it while in uniform and doing their jobs? hell no

Originally posted by melatonin
I think it would be a first ammendment issue - essentially using state apparatus to promote religion

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

No, it's not in there. The only thing it states is that Congress can't restrict religion. Congress itself is not prohibited from practising religion. Don't they open in prayer? They are simply told they can't make any laws about religion. You could argue that the soldiers were an extension of congress, but again you'd have to prove that the soldiers were prohibiting the Muslims from exercising their religion, which I don't see as a valid arguement.

O, and the freedom of speech part. Don't forget that part of the first ammendment.

Originally posted by melatonin
Is pr0n illegal in the US military (honest question)?

No, but it's illegal in most Muslim countries. They'll remove fingers in Saudi Arabia if they catch you with it. Iraq is more secular, but not to the point that they accept pron.

[edit on 16-6-2008 by dbates]

Originally posted by dbates
No, it's not in there. The only thing it states is that Congress can't restrict religion. Congress itself is not prohibited from practising religion. Don't they open in prayer? They are simply told they can't make any laws about religion. You could argue that the soldiers were an extension of congress, but again you'd have to prove that the soldiers were prohibiting the Muslims from exercising their religion, which I don't see as a valid arguement.

And establish religion. I think producing 'government paid missionaries' will be well-covered. Unless you think having the government pay for missionary work is congruent with the establishment clause.

O, and the freedom of speech part. Don't forget that part of the first ammendment.

And I guess all these little clauses need to weighed against each other. And the predominate interpretation is that the state apparatus must not act in a way to favour or establish a particular religion.

They are going as far as allowing particular evangelical groups exclusive access to military training gateways and young cadets.

No, but it's illegal in most Muslim countries. They'll remove fingers in Saudi Arabia if they catch you with it. Iraq is more secular, but not to the point that they accept pron.

Save people going blind or to hell I suppose. What a choice - blindness, fingerless, or eternal damnation.

Originally posted by melatonin
And the predominate interpretation is that the state apparatus must not act in a way to favour or establish a particular religion.

WRONG!!!

The predominate interpretation is to take it to mean what it says without adding your own anti-religious agenda to it.

Can the state establish a particular religion? No.
Can the state favor a particular religion? Yes it can. It just can't force anyone to convert.

Our founding documents state that our government cannot make any laws to establish a particular religion. But the implication that our government is prohibited from endorsing a particular religion is nowhere to be found in the writings of our founding fathers. That is something that you along with other militant atheists try to shoehorn into our founding documents.

Your never ending hate campaign against Christianity is getting old really fast. Are you even aware of how much hate and bigotry you spew into these forums? Maybe you need to take a step back and ask yourself why you are so full of hatred.

Hello Mel

for me as a Christian i see nothing wrong with handing out tracts in any form,


No one comes to Christ unless God the father calls them. That said NO ONE should be Forced to convert, as this is just ridiculous as it is not from the heart of true repentance.

you don't come under a "spell" of influence by reading tracts/coins.

However, as a Christian i see something wrong in forcing/coercing others to do evangelical work if this is the case.

david

Originally posted by Lightmare
Your never ending hate campaign against Christianity is getting old really fast. Are you even aware of how much hate and bigotry you spew into these forums? Maybe you need to take a step back and ask yourself why you are so full of hatred.

For the rest, take it up with your courts. The US state is meant to act in a predominately secular way - producing government paid missionaries is nothing but religious in form.

As for the trollery, I don't even have a 'hate' towards christianity. I do somewhat despise one form of christianity, the one that would luuurve to see a theocracy in the land of the free - comparable to islamofascists, lets call them the 'christofascists'. I don't tar all muslims with the actions of certain of their brethren, and the same applies to christians.

Go and troll elsewhere. This is about particular groups of evangelicals conspiring to turn the US army into 'government paid missionaries'. I have your opinion. Thank you.

Bye!

originally posted by drevill
for me as a Christian i see nothing wrong with handing out tracts in any form

Even if this contravenes the laws of the state and relevant institutions?

ABE: oh, and greetings to you Drevill. I couldn't help but read your name as Dr. Evil, heh.

you don't come under a "spell" of influence by reading tracts/coins.

I think these groups think that coming under the 'spell' is aided by targetting (i.e., brainwashing) mentally stressed individuals.

[edit on 16-6-2008 by melatonin]

reply to post by melatonin


A Crusader War. I like it melatonin. Don't you know we're fighting 'fundamental islam' in the middle east?

This is nothing more than the Fifth Grand Crusade, with the United States Christian Church at the forefront.

We are fighting another religion in Iraq, Afghanistan, and everywhere else we have bases...

While we spread 'democracy', we also spread religion.

Thanks for the thread, I think you hit the nail on the head!

Its irrelevant as a Christian what court you contravene if it goes against Gods will


KJV 1611

Matt 28:19

Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.

Originally posted by drevill
Its irrelevant as a Christian what court you contravene if it goes against Gods will

And therein lies the problem, to some the 'great commission' trumps the laws of state and institutions. Even as far as going to 'war'-torn nations using government armed missionaries to convert the locals.

Thanks for your feedback.

no problem

thanks for the topic.

david

Well melatonin I strongly agree with your topic. Religion should not be forced onto other people. It will make these non-religious soldiers uncomfortable and take there mind elsewhere. I think religion should be taken out of the state and out of the army, but if we did that then you would have Atheist crusaders now wouldn't you?

Either way this problem will continue and it will not change. Great post!