Fight to clone a human.

Fight to clone a human.

www.news.com.au

AUSTRALIA'S first licence to clone human embryos for stem-cell research could be granted as early as this week.

A National Health and Medical Research Council panel met in Canberra on Friday to consider applications from two groups.

Teams from Monash University and the Australian Stem Cell Centre have each joined with Sydney IVF to submit licence requests.

The teams want permission to use eggs left over from fertility treatment to clone human embryonic stem cells.

(visit the link for the full news article)

Just because they can clone cells - should they?

Personally, I'm not sure at which point life exists, or where it should be defined. I'm not relgious, so I don't have that crutch weighing me down, but I wonder when life really begins.

In any case, if the early stem cell research can help living humans, then it should be ok, right?

www.news.com.au
(visit the link for the full news article)

I know for a fact that when they started this crap with Dolly the sheep they (the scientist) swore they would never, ever, ever, ever do this!

Lies, Lies, Lies, Lies, everything they say!

Remember the controversy surrounding In Vitro Fertilization that took place in the late '70s and early '80s. Scientists and doctors were accused of playing God. Nearly 30 years later, it is a widely accepted practice.

I imagine the uproar surrounding embryonic stem cell research will follow along the same path.

They have to be doing it anyway...

Is it right?

Could be in the "right" hands...

COnversely, it could be diabolical in the wrong hands...

Which hands usually have the most ambition to contol?

Wrong hands...

Originally posted by maria_stardust
Remember the controversy surrounding In Vitro Fertilization that took place in the late '70s and early '80s.

There's still controversy with IVF, even today.

I get annoyed when I read about lesbian couples wanting IVF babies using TAXPAYER dollars. Their self-indulgent whims should not be taken care of using the public purse, simply because they refuse to have sex with a man to produce their own baby.

Both issues raise many quirky problems that will never be seen as 'right' by different groups of people.

Originally posted by tezzajw
I wonder when life really begins.

Life began 2-3 billion years ago.

Everything else is a matter of perspective.

I'm not bothered by the ethical ramifications/implications right now, it's more about whether or not the military intends to use the research that will be carried out as a result of these human experiments as part of some attempt to create a biological trump-card.

Imagine a soldier that is resistant to poison gases, radioactivity, and perhaps even interrogation aids.


Those are the most obvious military applications, or at least the most pressing.

Others would include improved motor functions and perhaps even synapse reconstitution for troopers in the field.

At the far end and into the black (op); how does a plague-bearer sound?

I don't like the ease with which this research can be taken advantage of when placed under the scruitiny of governmental authority.

Naturally of course, they'll say it's in the best interests of the public, while slapping a big ol' "Medical Research" tag over the whole thing.

That said, i'll admit i'm somewhat hesitant over the whole issue - the prospect of taking human life and altering/copying it without a pre-constructed model to use seems like we're asking for trouble.

Is it really so much for us to start by gaining experience in creating an entirely new organism as opposed to taking our own bodies apart and putting them back together to see if they still work?

Originally posted by Anti-Tyrant
I'm not bothered by the ethical ramifications/implications right now, it's more about whether or not the military intends to use the research that will be carried out as a result of these human experiments as part of some attempt to create a biological trump-card.

True. We're already exposed to the fiction of super-warriors. Are you familiar with the Space Marines from the Warhammer 40K Universe? They're genetically modified super-human warriors with implanted organs and psycho-conditioning, etc... Similarly, the old Kurt Russell movie called Soldier also showed a new breed of genetically designed humans who were built for war.

I wouldn't be surprised if the military have already advanced the research beyond what we know.

Next it will be Cybermen from Dr Who and then, the Arny T-1000 Terminators!

Each breakthrough we make on the genetic level, takes us one step closer to fictional reality.

Of course we should do it!

There are landmarks in History in which we advance, human cloning is one of them.

Good luck to the team and I hope it's a success.

I think we're a bit far from the good 'ol Adeptus Astartes though, give it a few years I reckon.

[edit on 7-6-2008 by Zanzibar]

Originally posted by tezzajw
We're already exposed to the fiction of super-warriors. Are you familiar with the Space Marines from the Warhammer 40K Universe? They're genetically modified super-human warriors with implanted organs and psycho-conditioning, etc...

My reference to 'plague-bearers' is actually paying homage to one of the fallen chapters in the Warhammer 40k universe - that of the "Death Guard".

I wouldn't be surprised if one day in the not-too-distant future certain individuals started getting it into their heads to mess with the gene-sequence in such a way that it biologically produces venom or noxious gas without damaging the carrier, much like the followers of Nurgle do in Warhammer 40k.

An invincible carrier of pestilence - the very personification of death.

Still, i'll take the T-1000 any day over a some khornate demon.

Oh, and by the way, i like your avatar.

Eversore, is it?

Originally posted by Anti-Tyrant
My reference to 'plague-bearers' is actually paying homage to one of the fallen chapters in the Warhammer 40k universe - that of the "Death Guard".

Yes, mate - I picked up on that one straight away! My avatar is an Eversor Assassin, for sure. My wife painted it, so I'm proud to show it off!

This news item is kind of related to the story the other day about the monkey that was able to manipulate a robotic arm attached to it and wired to its brain.

If we can clone humans and manipulate genes to interact with technology, where will it end? Cloned battlefield gun-servitors? Clone Troopers and Storm Troopers like Star Wars? Imagine the NWO elite with an army of cloned troopers at their disposal? We're sure heading down the path of one-world imperialism... Hail to the rebel freedom fighters!

Originally posted by Anti-Tyrant
I'm not bothered by the ethical ramifications/implications right now, it's more about whether or not the military intends to use the research that will be carried out as a result of these human experiments as part of some attempt to create a biological trump-card.

And the mere fact that we are now talking about it in public suggest to me that some Iraqi's and Afghan's have already run into soldiers with more than just 'regular' special abilities; it's just the logical extension of 'special' operations when you can bury your dead soldiers without having to explain it to anything but a very obscure and secret Senate oversight group...

Imagine a soldier that is resistant to poison gases, radioactivity, and perhaps even interrogation aids.

Imagine a soldier that may like the taste of some poison gases, can ignore radioactive effects by having a cell regeneration rate that largely negates side effects and then consider what the odds are against interrogating someone that will spend every second in captivity trying to find a way to kill himself....

Those are the most obvious military applications, or at least the most pressing.

Others would include improved motor functions and perhaps even synapse reconstitution for troopers in the field.

These things i all consider possible and the most problematic of issues might very well end up being the public outcry when the citizenry find out that soldiers without parents are dying for 'their' country.

At the far end and into the black (op); how does a plague-bearer sound?

Or one that can eat a far wider range of things such as for instance whatever remains of the enemy soldiers and civilians they kill while operating behind enemy lines? Genetic engineering will eventually produce warriors you really have to lock up when their not being 'used'.

I don't like the ease with which this research can be taken advantage of when placed under the scruitiny of governmental authority.

Hell i think we should be glad if there is senate oversight, and thus at least in some semblance of public involvement, as compared to what might happen when private MIC types control the show.

Naturally of course, they'll say it's in the best interests of the public, while slapping a big ol' "Medical Research" tag over the whole thing.

That said, i'll admit i'm somewhat hesitant over the whole issue - the prospect of taking human life and altering/copying it without a pre-constructed model to use seems like we're asking for trouble.

I'm confident they have been doing such work for decades now and that we are not likely to find out about it in any big way until something goes very wrong in a place that can't be considered a war 'zone'.

Is it really so much for us to start by gaining experience in creating an entirely new organism as opposed to taking our own bodies apart and putting them back together to see if they still work?

Not in my opinion, no , and i don't see how we are going to stop them from doing such things when we can't stop them from invading foreign nations leading to the deaths of millions! By the time we gather enough momentum to shut down such blatantly illegal operations i think the genie will be so far out of the box that we are not going to have any greater success than we are with genetically engineered foods.

Stellar

Originally posted by tezzajw
If we can clone humans and manipulate genes to interact with technology, where will it end?

Cyborgs, mate.

And it won't be like in robocop where we can just stick some poor sod in a suit of bio-mechanical armour, we'll be putting cloned organisms in those suits - blank slates for us to program, in the very literal sense of the word.

Which such progress that seems to be occuring in fields like robotics, nano-technology, bio-chemistry and genetic modification, it seems that the human body and everything that comprises it is becoming more and more of a mere object.

We might even end up with people who hunt down the base templates for the clones in order to grab a tissue-sample from them in order to engineer an effective plague to use against the clones - but then, that's far flung strategic thinking that has no real use in present day reality.

p.s; I've always had something of an affinity with the powers of chaos when collecting warhammer 40k figures.

It's probably because of all the spikey bits, sure having a horde of demons sounds cool, but so does a hulking mechanical behemoth with spikes coming out of where the sun doesn't shine.



Why can't we just do away with all this biological kiddy-play and break out the war-mechs?

Originally posted by Anti-Tyrant
Why can't we just do away with all this biological kiddy-play and break out the war-mechs?

Life would be alot more fun would it not?

XV armour will surpass anything you primitive Gue'la can throw at me though.

reply to post by Zanzibar


Ah, the Tau.



I'll admit i was lost there, i stopped paying proper attention to the world of warhammer a little while before the Tau came out.

I was around when the current fads were Gorkamorka and Mordheim, and to a lesser extent Warhammer Gothic.

Not much a war-suit equipped for riot situations will do against a Nid' Bio-Titan, now that i think about it...

Here we go again.

The problem I see is that they are killing humans in order to do research that is not needed. We now have the ability to harvest stem cells from consenting adults, and the technological advances that have happened as a result have been fabulous. In comparison, no embryonic stem cell research has as of yet cured a single disease. I cannot help but wonder why some scientists seem to be intent on using a more expensive, more controversial, less successful method to do research.

Perhaps the true agenda has more to do with 'proving' that embyos are not human, or not alive, or not... whatever. It certainly does not appear to have the proper (IMHO) agenda of trying to cure disease or improve medical technology.

TheRedneck

Originally posted by TheRedneck
I cannot help but wonder why some scientists seem to be intent on using a more expensive, more controversial, less successful method to do research.

Unfortunately, the science community is as susceptible to the same all-too-human failings as any other society is.

The old 'success means competition" mentality.

It sounds pretty damn good to have a few genetic research peices in your credentials, essentially.

I feel more emphasis is being placed on red-tape than it is on the scissors.

[edit on 7-6-2008 by Anti-Tyrant]

I think the scientists should stop being such wussies, whatever they can imagine in their heads should be put to reality, lets see how far we can push technology, why should they have to wait to grant anything, if they can clone a human that'd be right awesome, kinda inhumane but whatever, do it for the technology, who wants to be stuck in a rut with technology moving so quickly in other departments...

and after all that they can clone my wife while their at it, oh yeeee