Christians are NOT the Chosen Of God.

Christians have a belief that upon the "end of the world" they will be spirited away in a sweeping event called "the Rapture". Even know the term is a contradiction, as the word Rapture has nothing to do with removal, christians try to spread the lie to get removed you need go to their churches. This is a Conspiracy, and it is also a false belief system.

For a Christian to tell you they are "God's Choosen" is for that christian to put themselves over God and picking themselves.

God will choose the people God WILL choose. Christians have no Right assuming that is them.

Your Thoughs on this Illusionary Consiracy of escapisim?

reply to post by Incarnated


i agree, the bible says over and over again that we should not judge others. but that god judges us. and its true. god will choose his own people.

but it is releatively simple to see if someone is living in a way contrary to god's will. (this of course assuming that the bible is from god). this also includes professed christians.

Depends on what you are talking about... Many denominations do not include the rapture as part of their teachings.. namely the Roman Catholic and Greek Orthodox denominations (among others).

You are thinking of Evangelical Christians teaching about the rapture.

This seems to have been popularized in the early 20th century. I recall seeing some documentaries about the rapture idea some time ago, but I can't recall the details. I remember something about someone re-translating the bible and picking dates for the rapture that never happened. Go figure...

Also, where is this "Chosen People" idea coming from?

In the Torah, the ancient Hebrews/Isrealites are referred to as the "Chosen People" of god. The "Chosen People" seems nothing more than the ancient Hebrews/Isrealites were "chosen" in the old covenant and so the Christians consider themselves "chosen" because of the new covenant but the term "chosen" has a difference depending on the denomination. Chosen seems to be pretty common in Judeo-Christian Theology, but it's meaning is different depending on what you are actually talking about.

Technically, in Christianity everyone is "chosen by god". Not just the those that practiced Judaism. The "new covenant" as opposed to the "old covenant" was for everyone.

You can be "saved" when you "choose to accept jesus christ as the messiah".

You seem to have taken a very general term that is different depending on how it is applied and who it is being applied to.

It has a different meaning depending on the Christian denominations (for the most part) and is even used in Islam.

You have also misused this term.

To sum it all up:

The Hebrews/Isrealites were "chosen" by god because he made the old covenant with them.

The Christian term "chosen" varies depending on denomination.

Some believe that those who still practice "Judaism" are no longer "gods chosen people". They still can, however, but can not be "saved" because they do not accept the "messiah". Sure, it makes no sense at all, but did you really expect it to? Of course, they would still have to be "chosen"(just by the old covenant). After all, they were at one point according to their "sacred texts".

And "rapture" is a term given an event interpreted to be described in the new testament. The new testament was not originally written in english... it was translated so how can the term applied to an interpreted event contradict itself?

[edit on 6/5/2008 by apolluwn]

The rapture is another one of my favorite whimsical religious stories. Gee, not only do we get to be "chosen" by God[which means by the way all the other religions who may have very decent and noble members get swept under the rug.Nice], when we go we don't even die, we just magically float off into a magical dimension. This concept is so fraught with human wishfullness it's almost embarrassing how obvious it is.

Another one of my favorites is"Don't do this thing or you'll go to hell, but if you do do it and say you're sorry,and really mean it, we'll forgive you and everything will eb fine" Another human psychological escape hatch. The authors of all these religions were wise to not paint themselves into a corner, I'll give them that.

Christians are NOT the Chosen Of God.

amen to that.........
the shear arrogance is amazing.

Its not the sheeple I blame as much as the source of the evil.

what a way to control so many.......
and not just control them but control there minds and believes as well.

All Christians do not believe in the Rapture. IMHO, it is incorrect teaching and does not agree with the beliefs of any of the early Church fathers. The Rapture really came into being around the 1800’s thanks to John Darby, but has become popular today thanks to the books of Hal Lindsey. He connected it with the Jesuit school of Futurism, which today is the most popular school of eschatology. Protestant Christians, who know the true beliefs of their church fathers tend to follow Historicism, which states that there is no rapture, and Christians remain here right up to the final Judgment.

Additionally, there is no Christian that is going to call himself “Gods Chosen”, because the “Chosen People of God” are stated very clearly in the Bible as being Jews. The “First Fruits” are in fact Jewish coverts to Christ, the rest of us Gentile Christians come second.

Originally posted by defcon5
All Christians do not believe in the Rapture. IMHO, it is incorrect teaching and does not agree with the beliefs of any of the early Church fathers.

Thankyou.

Originally posted by defcon5
“Chosen People of God” are stated very clearly in the Bible as being Jews. The “First Fruits” are in fact Jewish coverts to Christ, the rest of us Gentile Christians come second.

Just curious as to where this is clearly stated in the Bible? Do you mean the Jews or all the Israelites?

It refers to all of those that were descendants of Abraham who god first made a covenant with... the Israelites, or ancient Hebrews, whatever you want to call them.

Deuteronomy 7:6
"For you are a holy people to the Lord your God;
the Lord your God has chosen you to be a people for Himself,
a special treasure above all the peoples on the face of the earth."


[edit on 6/6/2008 by apolluwn]

Originally posted by doctorex
Just curious as to where this is clearly stated in the Bible? Do you mean the Jews or all the Israelites?

Deu 7:6 For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth.

As far as I know it means Jews, as in those of the bloodline who followed the tenants of the faith up until the death of Christ. They were promised a Messiah of their bloodline, but rejected him, and the Romans destroyed Israel shortly after that. The Jews are supposed to be granted a chance to accept Christ again during the end times, but since the Death of Christ, the only way to heaven is through accepting Christ. Their animal sacrifices for sin are surpassed by the ultimate sacrifice made by Christ, which is shown in the Temple Vail splitting at the crucifixion. This is what makes the Christian Jews, the First Fruits as shown in Revelations, because they are both the old “Chosen People” and accepted the Messiah.

That may be confusing, but I hope it helps.

It seems I'm going to have to work on my argumentation skills a little. My hope was to get a thread going, but it would seem my argumentation point so strong that no one is willing to argue against my point.

I did word it so that it might be shaky ground to stand upon.

The thread comes from me being so sick to God of hearing Christians assum to have "won" heaven by taking a sunday bath.

Incarnated makes a decent "argument" i admit, and interesting! Not all Christians believe this as you have said though.

Defcon5 is one whom i do agree with, all said very well

I believe i have a spot, but do not believe in a mass disappearance aka the rapture though. I may be a bit forward to know i have a spot for myself even though i am not Jewish or whatever some think are the chosen nationality/group/s, i am just a Dutchman living in S.Africa. All i try and do is to teach my children to deal directly with The Supreme and deny what flesh deceives us with. Spiritual growth is personal and anyone knows when it comes to good and evil.

I do not see being Jewish to secure you a place in Heaven, or as a fact so being any nationality getting you into Heaven. Anyone can get there. I was part of the Full Gospel church for years, evangelical church, until i recognized the true church is not a building but it is Jesus, Himself. He is the true Church, the only path.

Anyone can get in Heaven, some even as lucky to make the choice of acknowledging The Supreme and His Son AND The Holy Spirit and being forgiven right before their departure from leaving this earth. Great example is the "dude" who was crucified with Jesus. That tells us something on how great anyone's chance is, no matter how we lived or what we did, believed in etc. Our God has given us chance upon chance, time after time so why would He ever stop after all He has done and still doing? He is not this awful God flesh makes Him to be, we are the bad ones lowering His name in the mud and people who are lost are just being mislead even further. We are all chosen, it is up to each one to answer the knock on the door.

I have plenty of arguments with people who believe they are correct and call themselves Christians but judge every single person that do not "practice" as they do, and i am talking people of different denominations. No wonder God said "Be quiet/silent when you pray" - I'd rather pray on my bed in silence behind closed doors, cause that is when doors open. Help if asked though and if/where i can.

I won't run any denomination down as there are many who go about the way i believe, and there are individuals in all denominations who do go about it the correct way, i cannot judge.

reply to post by Incarnated

The thread comes from me being so sick to God of hearing Christians assum to have "won" heaven by taking a sunday bath.

I am sick of that as well, but to be honest, it doesn't matter.

If the Bible is false, then I have lived a life based on it in vain. I am a bit confused as to why anyone would find this action to be harmful to themselves, since it is my life that was affected, not theirs.

If the Bible is true (which I fervently believe), then I am not to force my views on others, simply to tell others who want to hear about it. I am also to live my life in a way that is pleasing to God, to the best of my ability.

If the Bible is false and I ignore it save for a meeting every Sunday, then I am practicing hypocrisy, which by itself will get me ridiculed and taken lightly by others. The life that is affected is my own, and does not overly affect others.

If the Bible is true and I make some half-hearted attempt to appear as though I am following it on Sunday, then I have rejected everything in it, and will bear my punishment.

In any case, the choice is mine, and mine alone. The consequences are mine, and mine alone. And since I, as a Christian, believe that God is the final Judge, it is not my place to condemn others. After all, I don't know their heart, and neither does anyone else.

I think your mistake was in a misinterpretation of the concept of 'chosen ones'. I am a Christian. I have a covenant with Jesus and therefore with God. Yes, Jesus 'chose' me, but not because of anything I did or was or am. He chose me because I was human. I don't think there's a lot of discrimination in that choice.

TheRedneck

I do not understand where people get this "bible is the word of God" thing. God has not said one word to me about it. Rest assured that on matters this important, an allmighty God would be able to tell everybody instantly what his position is.

God does not need man's book of frail organic pages, or unwieldy stone tablets to let people know his word. Man needs those pages and tablets to manipulate and control his fellows.

We are told in the Bible "Thou shalt not kill" but in the very same Bible God commands his followers to slaughter entire countries.

We are told "Thou shalt not commit adultery" but one of the major players in the old testament did so and killed the woman's legal husband to keep her to himself. What a mighty king and man of wisdom!

You can go through the Bible and find such contradictions at every turn. A God who can pull the universe out of nothing has much more control over things than that.

Christians will say "You cannot second guess God!!!" I say I am not second guessing God. Only the MEN who wrote the Bible pretending to be God.



[edit on 6-7-2008 by groingrinder]

Originally posted by Incarnated
It seems I'm going to have to work on my argumentation skills a little. My hope was to get a thread going, but it would seem my argumentation point so strong that no one is willing to argue against my point.

I don't think your point is strong, necessarily. I think myself and defcon5 made strong points that your argument was not entirely factual. I admit he made the points a lot more eloquently , but we were basically talking about the same things.

I do, however, see where you are going, but the fact that you misconstrued your main points makes it difficult to argue for or against them. You can't overgeneralize and apply it to an entire religion and expect anyone to take it seriously enough to spark meaningful debate. With all due respect, I think you have missed that point.

As for your other points, such as "God WILL choose". You don't know that unless you are a/the god. Furthermore, are you not doing the same thing that you claim the Christians are doing? Claiming yourself above god because you -think- you know his will?

reply to post by qonone


Yes I understand that. I'm sure even a hand full of chirstians will get into heaven. However I was speaking in wide terms about the most basic understandings of most of the christian church.

reply to post by groingrinder


They believe the bible is "the word of God" because the prophets wrote down the words they heard. The Prophets of Old hear something along the lines of "This is your Lord God, write down this..." but it was because the old prophets wrote "this is the word of God" meaning the voice they were hearing, people mistake that statement for meaning the "bible" is the word of God.

Unfortuanetly, I am not a wise christian man with an expansive knowledge of the bible. But as I read, a fancy stole away in my mind. A fancy for a post. I would like to say that, as far as 'Chosen' people under God, this is in my opinion just the unfortuanet product of today's quizzical society. We are all so quick to push our own ideologies upon other people out of fear in my opinion. A fear that if someone doesn't agree with your philosophy than it MUST mean there is a fallacy that you didn't see. To me Jesus Christ died on the cross for our sins. Our encompassing all of the world. There was no 'chosen'. Jesus Christ died for my sins and should I so choose to learn to love him for this and serve God with the utmost fortitude and passion, then I will go to heaven.

I will go to heaven because I have a compassion for my neighbors. Once again, neighbors being everyone. I will go to heaven because I overcame my own ego-centric, lust induced, lethargia and tried my hardest to make a difference in a world with confused and lost individuals. I cannot agree with any 'chosen'. Even the poorest man of monetary terms may succeed in God if he only be a man of compassion and love. In my opinion, not to sound like a doomsayer, the world is crumbling around us. If any were 'chosen' then it would be those brave men and women who drop their material lives and stagger out into the dark world surrounding us and make a difference. The doctors who are in Kenya, the people marching against the regulations inducted by the rich here in the U.S., the firefighters in China who are repeating what ours so bravely did in September of '01. To me, the equation is a simple one. Self sacrifice and the bravery to stand against many, for few, is your ticket into heaven. Forget this 'chosen' bullhocky.

Chances are that half of these preachers bringing this up in sermons are living comfortably in homes provided by the church, driving new vehicles, with all they could hope for in their lives. This in my opinion is an insult to anyone claiming to want a relationship with God. It says, and I don't remember from what part of the bible it is so don't ask me for a link, "To be perfect in God, do not worry how you will eat. Do not worry how you will clothe yourself. Instead, sell all of your belongings, give to the poor, and follow me."

This of course probably isn't an exact excerpt. But you get the idea. To even claim yourself 'chosen' is a conundrum within the very practice you are preaching.....

reply to post by miriam0566


Thanks for reaffirming that God is a hypocrite.

We cant judge each others but God can judge us, sounds like a master-slave hypocrisy to me.

How about we turn the tables and judge God on what he has done, wouldn't things change then. How about the Almighty make it even we do good works and he does, not sit on his throne and judge us while he doesn't physically lift a finger.

All the worlds problems which are beyond us God could heal, but where is he?

I don't see myself healing nearly 4 billion people but for God that should be effortless and yet it hasn't been done. No wonder people don't believe in the Christian God just as I don't.

Just to note I am spiritual or another way of putting it is I like to get to the core of people and appreciated them for who they are not what book they read.

reply to post by Incarnated


But then every religion that exist today thinks the same thing.

'One way is the true way, the one way' because if not than why all the religions in the first place, which are nothing more than different takes on life and rules to adhere by.

What is the reason for so many religions, is it to feed the desire to sway from a set path, is it the un-contentment of millions of people to disagree with a commonly accepted idea?

Even among Christianity there are countless denominations under one label so in that respect there is infighting within Christianity itself as to who is right and wrong. Or which way is the true way and which isn't.

Anyone can consider their way or their people the chosen ones in relation to any religion. The case in point is you wont find a Koran follower saying that Christianity is the right way, of course he wont.

He follows the Koran or any other religion because he perceives it as the true way to live and the right rules to follow.

The only way to solve it in a religious perspective is to have one religion only.

Somehow I don't ever see that happening.

Originally posted by Drakiir
reply to post by miriam0566

 

Thanks for reaffirming that God is a hypocrite.

We cant judge each others but God can judge us, sounds like a master-slave hypocrisy to me.

How about we turn the tables and judge God on what he has done, wouldn't things change then. How about the Almighty make it even we do good works and he does, not sit on his throne and judge us while he doesn't physically lift a finger.

All the worlds problems which are beyond us God could heal, but where is he?

I don't see myself healing nearly 4 billion people but for God that should be effortless and yet it hasn't been done. No wonder people don't believe in the Christian God just as I don't.

Just to note I am spiritual or another way of putting it is I like to get to the core of people and appreciated them for who they are not what book they read.

I'm curious, have you ever read the Bible? More than skimming pages and giving up because it was too volumous for your patience? Or, when you did read the Bible, did you take the time to actually study it and try to understand it? The things you are saying sound as though you made up your mind on Christianity you didn't understand it. Which we are all guilty of with all religions. Or wouldn't we all be students of all religion?

We cannot judge each other because of the Sin we are born with. To judge each other is hypocritical and dangerous. If you spill a glass of milk then, your friend spills another and you chastise him for this, that would make you a hypocrite. Same thought process....To note on the dangerous part I mentioned, look what happens to men wrongly accused in court....they're either sentenced to death or imprisoned. Perhaps they get pardoned down the road, but it is still fals imprisonment. I'm not condoning letting the world wrong amuck, I'm just using these instances as examples. But this just comes back to it all. The Lord created the world already knowing what was going to happen. He knew everything that would occur with every person, after all, he made you. Don't assume I'm trying to push my religion on you, I am only responding to your comments because I see them as biased. We aren't supposed to judge each other because we can never know everything.

God isn't healing 4 billion people because it was all his plan. Yes, as human beings and ego-centric preverbial 'moralists', we see this as wrong. Why would he let so many die of horrible diseases and war? Well because it isn't God simply lounging around as everyone parishes. We are doing it to each other. It is the effect of our sin. But there are good people out there fighting to change things and rather than your ranting about God not doing anything, consider being one of those people? It is easy to condone everything from your chair in front of your computer.

ive always found evangelicals (not to say ive met every evangelical, but the ones i have met) to be a few pages short of a bible. if you encounter such people who feel the need to preach their own virtues, i generally refer them to the seven deadly sins.

Pride (Latin, superbia)

In almost every list pride ( or hubris or vanity) is considered the original and most serious of the seven deadly sins, and indeed the ultimate source from which the others arise. It is identified as a desire to be more important or attractive than others, failing to give compliments to others though they may be deserving of them,[citation needed] and excessive love of self (especially holding self out of proper position toward God). Dante's definition was "love of self perverted to hatred and contempt for one's neighbor." In Jacob Bidermann's medieval miracle play, Cenodoxus, pride is the deadliest of all the sins and leads directly to the damnation of the titulary famed Parisian doctor. In perhaps the best-known example, the story of Lucifer, pride was what caused his fall from Heaven, and his resultant transformation into Satan. Vanity and narcissism are prime examples of this sin. In Dante's Divine Comedy, the penitent were forced to walk with stone slabs bearing down on their backs in order to induce feelings of humility.


en.wikipedia.org...