Evangelical Christians

Originally posted by Valhall No...it isn't...not when you are the majority.

Now you're scaring me! If the majority deemed it moral to kill a certain ethnic group... it's okay for that marjority to enforce it's morality on the rest of the people? (Extreme example)

i dont know...thats a good question! we say things are bad, like the killing of the jews by the nazis, but we were for the killing of communists...it scares me too

also for those who keep saying there is one truth by using 2+2=4 but doesnt 5-1=4 work too? plus 4 cant be the truth, becuase i could use 5,6,7,X, etc... the truth isnt really the destination, its more like the path

[Edited on 4-3-2004 by Moomaster]

Originally posted by SkepticOverlord

Now you're scaring me!

If the majority deemed it moral to kill a certain ethnic group... it's okay for that marjority to enforce it's morality on the rest of the people?

(Extreme example)

No...I'm not saying it's right. I'm saying it would have to be accepted by the minority, or they would have to get the heck out of what (IMHO) they would rightfully deem a screwed up place.

Of course, the sense that the place is screwed up is going to be based on some type of moral code, which leads us back to...

the moral code of the majority rules - even when it sucks.

Originally posted by Joseph Knecht
Mr. Simple Truth:
I have to disagree with you. What you are saying is predicated on YOUR own belief that their is an absolute truth. Your belief may be based on anything concievable. That still makes it YOUR belief! This is exactly what is so devisive about christianity. YOU DO NOT HAVE A MONOPOLY ON THE TRUTH. You may have faith, logic, reason, etc.. But the 'truth' is, in all actuality: you have absolutley no idea whether you are right, wrong, or somewhere in-between. Is this so hard for you to deal with?

I said I believe in a God. You immediantly turn that into the fallacies of my belief pertaining to God. Who the hell are you?

I will continue this debate for as long as necessary, but please understand the inherent difficulties in dealing with an absolutist.

Whoa there buddy, no need to take offense here. Anyway, do you KNOW what truth means, and how it's different than the term belief? Out of all the beliefs out there, there's only going to be ONE that IS the truth! Don't make me have to link you to dictionary.com so you can look up the definitions of the two. Whatever you think of christianity and whether it's true or not, you HAVE to know that there exists one truth about God and the origin of things. Don't think it's christianity? Fine!!!! But your deal with all these different ways all being a truth is ridiculous. Multiple truths of the same thing is like an oxymoron. Belief does not dictate the truth. Whatever someone believes does not change the way of things. Truth is definite and a constant. A belief can either hit or miss the truth. It can be in line with the truth or not!

And of course I talk about how I know what I believe is right! Why would I devote to something false, or partially true? You get angry when I say christianity is the truth. What do you expect me to say?! "Yeah, I'm a christian, but it probably ISN'T correct?" You'd have to be a moron to have that position.

And why are you content sitting as you are claiming and admitting you don't know the truth? You said so in your earlier post. You are satisfied saying, "well I believe such and such....I have no idea if it's the real deal...but what the hell right?? It's only one of many." The rampant belief in moral and cultural relativism is a real tragedy.

I don't feel Dictonary.com helps you out any.



truth ( P )
1. Conformity to fact or actuality.
- You believe you know the actuality. I believe you don't. I believe there to be many actualities.

2. A statement proven to be or accepted as true.
- You can not prove anything that you are suggesting. Therefore it is your BELIEF that what you think is true.

3. Sincerity; integrity.

- I believe you are sincerely mistaken.


4. Fidelity to an original or standard.

- You accept the Bible as the standard. Many people don't. The Mbuti Pygmies don't. They have a different standard that they are faithful to. You think that makes them or me or anyone who doesn't believe in YOUR truth wrong. This is a very childish position.



As for relativism being such a tragedy. Have a look at human history, have a look at human present. Our history is full of tears and blood, much of it from the religous beliefs that have been thrust on others. Some examples would be : The Crusades, The Spanish Inquisition, The Salem Witch Hunts, Manifest Destiny, The Opression of Women, The Islamic Jihadists.... etc. I'm sorry Simple Truth, but you have your tragedies mixed up.

Not to leave out number 5.

5. Reality; actuality.
often Truth -That which is considered to be the supreme reality and to have the ultimate meaning and value of existence.

What is CONSIDERED to be the supreme reality and ultimate meaning of existence inherently presupposes that there is an ultimate reality. Who or what considers this? Someone's belief.

What most here don�t seem to realize and understand is that what you all are talking about is simply government. The Jews were bitch slapped by Jesus for turning their god given government into a religion. Here you talk of eliminating the opposition by the use of force. Think what the sovereign of the universe will do, call that one god, king, or what ever but rulership is rulership. There is NO demonocracy in appointments made by a King.

Well, my whole point is and was:

The statement that christians are forcing their beliefs on others is bull-hockey. To bring forth political issues that have gone the way of the majority as proof is bad form because then you are arguing against rule of the majority. If by chance the majority hold Judeo-Christian ethics, and the laws in place reflect those ethics, so be it, that's the result you get in a democratic process. But to turn that around and present it as if a certain religion is trying to force itself on others is wrong.

As I stated before, if and/or when the majority is non-Christian, the laws will most likely reflect that. That time hasn't come yet and the minority can flap their lips and try to move the nation, but hopefully won't get too far. My opinion is they have made more ground than they should have and the majority should take that ground back. I really don't care if they don't like it. Majority rules.

That's a very very good point valhall. I think you basically set the whole argument straight. If people don't like the current situation, they can move to somewhere where christianity is outlawed and they never have to feel put upon by it ever again. If you complain about the majority of people deciding how things go, then you obviously don't like democracy, and are in the wrong place.

Exactly. I think the US does a good job - sometimes to the opposite extreme - of keeping the majority's belief systems out of the laws; but they are inherently tied to a moral code based on Judeo-Christian ethics. A legal system NECESSARILY has to be tied to some system of ethics - is the gripe here which one got picked???

If you don't believe me about how good the nonbelieving people of the US have it here, go live in a theocracy. There are two or three really good choices to pick from: Saudi Arabia, Iran, Afghanistan...

be my guest.

[Edited on 6-3-2004 by Valhall]

Originally posted by Joseph Knecht
Not to leave out number 5.

5. Reality; actuality.
often Truth -That which is considered to be the supreme reality and to have the ultimate meaning and value of existence.

What is CONSIDERED to be the supreme reality and ultimate meaning of existence inherently presupposes that there is an ultimate reality. Who or what considers this? Someone's belief.

You're ignorance is a wall that's too thick for me to penetrate. I'm not even talking about christianity anymore. I'm trying to get across to you the meaning of truth. The concept of truth. You obviously can't comprehend it. And when you say "the truth is that there are many truths" is a paradox. How everything came to be happened only one way. And, by your own argument and thinking I can say this right back to you:

How dare you judge me. Who the hell are you? So I'm wrong?! You can't say that. You act SO sure that you have it figured out better than me, right? I'm ignorant to you? After all, there IS no ultimate reality, so your claim is bogus too! Just as bad as mine!

Ya see how ridiculous that is? Your own logic puts your own self in the same boat with me. Suppose your claim that there is no actual truth or reality is correct. Guess what? THAT would turn out to be what THE truth is. It's a paradox. You may think I'm wrong, but at least I don't have self-contradicting logic. Even if you were in a satanic cult, I would at least think of you as more rational, despite that it's obviously wrong. At least you would invest into one thing. You would have a better chance at being in line with the truth believing that, than you are now, just pussy-footing (and no, not the female part) around with no convictions. I would be far less frusterated.

And I still don't understand why you get so flustered because I claim I know I'm right. I'm confident in what I know and trust in. Heaven forbid that I have this belief....and that *gasp* I believe in it, and...*OH NO!* i'm confident in it and.....*THIS CAN'T BE! IT'S JUST NOT RIGHT* i'm SHARING it with people! WHAT'S THE WORLD COMING TO?! SUCH TABOO!!

Anyway, I'm done discussing with you. I have nothing more to say. Relativistic morality and truth is such a joke. I really hope you wise up.

[Edited on 6-3-2004 by SimpleTruth]

Paradox is exactly the point.... Anyway, good luck to you and your almighty truth.

www.utm.edu...

i only have one question to ask all of you guys feuding about whats right...

Scat,

You are obviously missing the whole point of this thread. Nobody is arguing "what is right".

The statement was made that evangelical christians are forcing their beliefs on others.

And that's simply not true.

I don't care to argue whose right or wrong in the belief arena. I'm going to have my beliefs and you can have yours. But me sharing my beliefs does not equate to forcing them on anybody.

I agree pretty much everything with truth he knows what hes talking about!