Why the Longer Flight paths?

reply to post by talisman


The MUSCLE HIJACKERS didn't know the entire plan. The pilots knew it well before hand, and even picked out the final date that they were going to execute the attack on.

The date for the attacks was uncertain until about three weeks before they were carried out, and there is evidence that as late as Sept. 9 ringleader Mohamed Atta had not decided whether one aircraft would target the U.S. Capitol or the White House, according to the report. Atta finally chose a date after the first week of September, the report says, "so that the United States Congress would be in session."

www.washingtonpost.com...

Mohammed said bin Laden offered him four operatives to begin with - al-Mihdhar and al-Hazmi as well as two Yemenis, Walid Muhammed bin Attash and Abu Bara al-Yemeni.

"All four operatives only knew that they had volunteered for a martyrdom operation involving planes," one report stated.

newsmine.org...

Originally posted by Zaphod58
reply to post by talisman

 

The MUSCLE HIJACKERS didn't know the entire plan. The pilots knew it well before hand, and even picked out the final date that they were going to execute the attack on.

The date for the attacks was uncertain until about three weeks before they were carried out, and there is evidence that as late as Sept. 9 ringleader Mohamed Atta had not decided whether one aircraft would target the U.S. Capitol or the White House, according to the report. Atta finally chose a date after the first week of September, the report says, "so that the United States Congress would be in session."

www.washingtonpost.com...

Mohammed said bin Laden offered him four operatives to begin with - al-Mihdhar and al-Hazmi as well as two Yemenis, Walid Muhammed bin Attash and Abu Bara al-Yemeni.

"All four operatives only knew that they had volunteered for a martyrdom operation involving planes," one report stated.

newsmine.org...

Those are just "reports" in the Newspaper. You know, kind of like "REPORTS" of hijackers being alive. there just "reports" nothing proving anything. But the Star Witness in this...Osama...


The above Contradicts Osama himself....

Bin Laden said "the brothers who *CONDUCTED THIS OPERATION*"

archives.cnn.com...

UBL: The brothers, who conducted the operation, all they knew was that they have a martyrdom operation and we asked each of them to go to America but they didn't know anything about the operation, not even one letter. But they were trained and we did not reveal the operation to them until they are there and just before they boarded the planes.

It would seem only Atta knew.





[edit on 14-4-2008 by talisman]

And those reports came from interviews with Khalid Sheik Mohammed. He was the one that planned the original Operation Bojinka, AND 9/11. I would think that he would know if the operatives knew. He was also quoted by the 9/11 commission.

reply to post by weedwhacker


There is nothing in your post that addresses "why the hijackers had ZERO RESPECT for the United States Airforce, and indeed whomever planned this as well, since the hijackers didn't even KNOW THE PLAN as I have proven by Osama Bin Laden's quote.

You assert the closeness of Boston to New York, but the people doing the operation might think that they may get intercepted. Again, they didn't have a crystal ball. So it is natural to suppose the UNITED STATES THE ONLY SUPERPOWER might have a contingency plan for a HIJACKING!

Originally posted by Zaphod58
And those reports came from interviews with Khalid Sheik Mohammed. He was the one that planned the original Operation Bojinka, AND 9/11. I would think that he would know if the operatives knew. He was also quoted by the 9/11 commission.

Says who?

He could be very making that up to protect Bin Laden.

So Bin Laden planned everything that Al Qaeda does by himself? He just has other people admit to doing the planning to protect him? Mohammed was obsessed with using planes at weapons. He wanted a much bigger operation than was carried out, and Bin Laden had to cancel parts of his plan because it was TOO ambitious, and they were afraid it was getting too big.

KSM originally was working with Ramzi Yousef on Operation Bojinka in the Philippines when Yousef was caught, spoiling the operation. After that he kept begging Bin Laden to let him pull off smaller versions of Bojinka, even at one point contemplating the use of shoe bombs to hit several planes at once. Shortly after this idea is when he came up with the idea of having multiple planes hit buildings simultaneously in a mass attack.

reply to post by talisman


Well talisman.....it's been pointed out, repeatedly, that the two airplanes that originated in Boston were not intercepted, since it's been pretty well known, now, after the fact, that the air defenses of the USA were focused on an OUTSIDE threat!

The last airplane, the late, great UAL93, was put down into Shanksville, by the jerks in the cockpit, as they came to realize that heroes where trying to gain control. This happened BEFORE the VP got permission, in his bunker, in the Sit Room, to order shoot downs....he got the permission, but never needed to use that authority, since it was over by then.

The mass groundings were ordered, of course, as the immensity of the events began to sink in...and guess we will never know if there were other delayed flights, that were graounded before any take-overs could occur....

Here is a conspiracy idea! Too late now, but IF there were more potential hi-jackers, they just slipped away, after the grounding of all flights.

Maybe they're still out there....wooooo! Keep a sharp lookout for the swarthy, Arab types!

See how the fear keeps going? It is time to stop it.

BTW, I have blonde hair and blue (well, some call them hazel) eyes.

I hate what those Arab bastards (can I say 'bastards'?) did, but they don't represent an entire class of people, anymore than I, with blue (hazel?) eyes represent another class...

A study was done, back in the sixties I think, where a class of schoolchildren were told that those with blue eyes were superior. Didn't take long for a 'Lord of the Flies' scenario to evolve...it sems to be human nature to assume that someone you don't like the looks of is somehow inferior....very, very sad commentary on human nature.

Thanks for our post.

WW

[edit on 4/14/0808 by weedwhacker]

reply to post by Zaphod58


What I am saying is that the quote I posted came the closest to the actual said event and didn't rely on "memory" as much. Usually when people reconstruct history the earlier the source the more trusted.
I go with the source I quoted since it came very early.

But it still doesn't address why whomever planned this had ZERO RESPECT FOR THE UNITED STATES AIR FORCE....



[edit on 14-4-2008 by talisman]

reply to post by weedwhacker

that the air defenses of the USA were focused on an OUTSIDE threat!

#1. Air defense includes dealing with "HIJACKINGS". There was nothing unusual about the actual hijacking since hijackings are known to occur in the world. The only unusual thing came almost an hour later when the planes reached their intended targets. So for almost an hour it was just "a hijacking".

#2. Why this would lead any "planner" to conclude that the AIR FORCE OF THE ONLY SUPERPOWER in the world to be a non issue is the question, especially when one considers the "planner" had no crystal ball and had to go on the reputation of the said "AIR DEFENSE".





[edit on 14-4-2008 by talisman]

reply to post by talisman


talsiman, maybe you don't know about what was called the 'common strategy' in the wake of the wave of hijackings, started first by the 'Take Me To Cuba' idea, then realized as a potential for hostage-taking, and thusly, a political or financial agenda, take your pick, when it was determined that airplanes could be used in this way.
(the 1970s...)

talisman, the general idea was, the hi-jackers were extorting (for money) or extorting (for political purposes). The money aspect is easy to understand....'Give me money, or I kill passengers'.

The political side is more complex....usually, it was 'Release XYZ prisoners from ABC country in DEF, or I kill the passengers!'

See, we had a 'common strategy' back then, with the first concept, the core to the 'belief'...that the hostage takers were afraid to die.

Guess what? We know better now, and should have expected it although there were warning signs, the idiots in the new 'Bush' administration ignored their inbriefing, they were so arrogant, and Condie, who should be a waitress at Hooter's, for all she's worth, is partly to blame.

OK, rant over...topic! (whew)

On Sept 10, 2001, we had a vision of how a hi-jacking attempt would play out. We trained, and re-trained, and were NEVER told, and it was NEVER suggested to us, the crewmembers, that serious [word deleted] would be willing to storm in, kill the pilots, and fly a suicide mission to a target.

They 'cased' flights, they flew over and over, watching and looking for how the opportunity would present itself.

Beforehand, they learned how to fly, the basics, then about the cockpits, specifically the B757/767, which are so similar the FAA allows it a common type rating, meaning, when you learn one, you know both... how to operate the autoflight system, how to disengage it (not difficult) and how to re-engage it if needed, how to navigate (not difficult)....

Darn it, a 737 and a 747 all fly the same way, just like a Chevrolet and an Audi all drive the same....minor differences, yes, but not difficult to an average human with an ability to learn!!!

Point is, the 757/767 were chosen BECAUSE of their similarity! Yeah, more 737s fly around the country, but they don't have the 'potential', they don't carry the amount of fuel that a 757/767 does. OK, well, a 747 or 777 carries more fuel, true. BUT, there are more 757/767 flights transcon, than 747s. Or 777s Those jumbo-jets tend to be international, for the most part...

Do you see, yet, how this was logically, methodically planned out?

Really, simple thinking skills apply, and you can see the real conspiracy....it falls at the feet of the Bush Administration....

reply to post by weedwhacker


"Hijackers" could mean more then just "Hijackers" back in July 2001.

Consider:

archives.cnn.com...


Genoa braces for G8 summit

The Italian authorities' security measures also include the positioning of surface-to-air missiles at Genoa's Christopher Columbus airport. Dubbed the SPADA, the land-based system consists of missiles capable of a range of 15 kilometres (9.3 miles).

The other leaders of the world's most industrialised nations -- the U.S., Britain, Canada, France, Germany, Italy, Japan, plus Russia -- are also staying offshore on a luxury cruise liner, the "European Vision, " chartered by the Italian government at a reported cost of $2.89 million.

Surface to air missiles are used for aerial targets. Obviously the leaders didn't stay in any of the buildings in the town.

This just months before 9/11. Also remember the "memo" about Bin Laden determined to attack in the United States?

www.cnn.com...

Bin Laden determined to strike in US

Then of course


www.usatoday.com...

NORAD had drills of jets as weapons

WASHINGTON — In the two years before the Sept. 11 attacks, the North American Aerospace Defense Command conducted exercises simulating what the White House says was unimaginable at the time: hijacked airliners used as weapons to crash into targets and cause mass casualties.

One of the imagined targets was the World Trade Center

Now, keep in mind that there was nothing unusual about the hijacking. What was strange was the planes hitting their targets. However NORAD had planned for this before.

But, when you factor in that Bin Laden just so happened to have come up with a plan that NORAD had also planned for, but he did it while organizing a "LONGER TIME IN AIR" and without "TELLING THE HIJACKERS THE PLAN" and he did it without having or showing any "FEAR OF THE UNITED STATES AIR FORCE" as if he knew they wouldn't be a problem eventhough the hijackers didn't really know the plan...

Then we have a major problem in the narrative.

[edit on 15-4-2008 by talisman]

reply to post by talisman


talisman....man....you're citing sources that refer to the CURRENT situation.

We had code words, back before 2001.

If a F/A called us, and was under duress, he/she had a code word to use, and if we didn't get it the first time, he/she would REPEAT it until it sank in.

Same code word, ATC knew it...it was designed to alert them that the cockpit was under duress, and could not speak openly. We could input a code into the transponder, another covert way to alert ATC, but only if we alive to do so....

BUT, if the pilots have their throats slit (sorry for being graphic) then the code words are useless, aren't they?

Some, here on ATS, have asked a valid question. 'Why didn't the pilots fight back?'

Well, good question. You're sitting at your computer now, right? OK, there is a door behind you, about 6 or 7 feet (I'm exagerrating).

Oh, and there is background noise, about the decible level of a vacuum cleaner....in an adjacent room, but still, a steady noise....

Now...surprise!! You are being attacked from behind, and it is so unexpected so completely out of anything you think will happen in yoru safe cocoon......the cockpit....

Getting the picture yet??

Forgot to mention....you're wearing a seatbelt, you are focused forward, you're attacked from behind in a confined space....getting the picture yet????





[edit on 4/15/0808 by weedwhacker]

reply to post by weedwhacker



Let us say for the sake of argument that the "unusual" thing is the lack of a proper reply from the plane. That doesn't change the fact it still is a hijacking and can be treated as such.

One thing we can agree on. It was well known in advance of the WTC getting struck that the planes were off course. Drastically off course. That much is certain.

But as I pointed out the narrative has some definite issues, major issues.

Let me put this in another way.

Whomever planned this,did so with a "crystal ball of sorts" for they knew the United States Air Defense would be of no consequence.

Now, you might think cave dwellers had this "crystal ball"---I DON'T.

Who would know the United States Air Defense would be of no consequence that day?

Instead of only thinking back from a certain angle, why don't you also think back to how others might have viewed the United States Air Force. There was no reason really to suspect any weakness, the United States was a Superpower and everyone would know that.

If Bin Laden says that the hijackers for the most part really didn't know the plan and he trusted them to act accordingly when told after their "bacon and eggs" that they are about to be blown up in the WTC which is in a different city. This brings up many issues.

Either way the fact that a longer flight path was taken considering everything else I have mentioned brings something to light. It brings to light that the planners of this "event" were well aware of the defense capabilities and were well aware of what would happen.


It stands to reason in this case that only someone who had an intricate knowledge of the AIR DEFENSE itself would have been the ONE to have planned this.








[edit on 15-4-2008 by talisman]

reply to post by talisman


NO, the difficulty is, and has been, in recognizing that these were not 'cave-dwellers'

They were, mostly, Saudi citizens, quite used to the good life, but completly brain-washed by the stupid, stupid thing that is called 'religion'.

These so-called 'cave dwellers' also lived, here in the US, for years...maybe choking down their hatred all the while, who knows?

Guess we failed miserably in 'converting' them....isn't that what Christianity is supposed to be good at? Oh, well, the Christian 'god' was on vacation that year.....that explains it!!

[edit on 4/15/0808 by weedwhacker]

reply to post by talisman


How many intercepts did the USAF perform over the United States prior to 9/11? One. And it took them well over an hour to perform that one. That right there would give me SOME confidence that I could pull off something like this.

reply to post by weedwhacker


You would agree that the United States military and Air Force has capabilities far beyond what is publicly known?

Recall it is Bin Laden who planned this, he is the "Cave Dweller".

How would such a "Cave Dweller" have confidence that the unknown capabilities of the Air force would not be of consequence?

Let us suppose your argument. That he isn't a "cave dweller".

Then that would mean he would have knowledge that the United States would have a very capable Air Defense. Again, how would he know it would be useless that day?

reply to post by talisman


talisman....

these 'muslims' were told that after carrying out their 'jihad' missions

(BTW, suicide is forbidden in the muslim religion)

they would be greeted by 72 'virgins'. Oh, the Muslim religion is also very strict about sex, so it is very controlling in that regard.

NOW, suppose these dead 'muslims' are shown their 72 'virgins'....and it turns out, they are a bunch of guys living in their parent's basements, typing out a new Star Wars Episode, and hoping to sell it to George Lucas??

NOW, that is funny!!!!

But, sad thing is....this nineteen guys were convinced they'd have some sort of 'heavenly reward' after they carried out these heinous acts.

It is sick, and twisted. And, I see the potential for it to happen again, thnk Timothy McVeigh....it can be inside right now, in any country you care to imagine.

Religious extremism is the real Terror...all forms, regardless of denomination. It is a mental illness, and must be opposed, by peaceful means, at all costs, for the sake of Humanity.

I must emphasize this...PEACEFUL means. Intelligence, not armaments....

reply to post by Zaphod58



According to the Dallas Morning News it was 20 minutes:

www.wanttoknow.info...

Instead, according to an Air Force timeline, a series of military planes provided an emergency escort to the stricken Lear, beginning with a pair of F-16 Falcons from the Air National Guard at Tyndall Air Force Base, Fla., about 20 minutes after ground controllers lost contact.

Intercepts of over 129 times in the year 2000

911research.wtc7.net...

Today, any aircraft with radio problems is suspect, no problem routine. Fighter jets are scrambled to babysit suspect aircraft or "unknowns" three or four times a day. Before Sept. 11, that happened twice a week.

Last year, there were 425 unknowns -- pilots who didn't file or diverted from flight plans or used the wrong frequency. Jets were scrambled 129 times.

reply to post by talisman


talis, first you said 15 minutes, then you post a link to 20 minutes....this, the 20 minutes, is after the miitary, who just happened to have F-16s in the air, were alerted, by civilian ATC....after the jet had flown, and been unresponsive to multiple ATC calls, for an hour.

See how nonsense gets conflated into an 'internet' sensation?

Step back, take a knowledge pill, and call me in the morning.

Thanks for your post.

WW

Originally posted by weedwhacker
reply to post by talisman

 

talis, first you said 15 minutes, then you post a link to 20 minutes....this, the 20 minutes, is after the miitary, who just happened to have F-16s in the air, were alerted, by civilian ATC....after the jet had flown, and been unresponsive to multiple ATC calls, for an hour.

See how nonsense gets conflated into an 'internet' sensation?

Step back, take a knowledge pill, and call me in the morning.

Thanks for your post.

WW

Actually I never said 15 minutes, that was someone else.