Why Muslims should be treated with more respect

reply to post by madnessinmysoul


It's nice to be able to agree with you for once.

Unfortunately this is the third or fourth time in the last few days that you've claimed to have covered my point before. You come across like "There's nothing I don't know or haven't said already".

I'm sure plenty of people make very similar points in a chatroom as time goes on. I suppose to avoid it we could all just read your threads first... _javascript:icon('')

Madness: please forgive my sarcasm. I was just frustrated that you kept telling me the same thing.

_javascript:icon('')

The real point is, it IS good to agree with you. The issue at stake is whether we look down on a certain group of people, or consider them and treat them as just as valuable as others.

Getting back to the theme, I fear I strayed too far into political territory, which was never my intent. I think it does illustrate, however, that the sphere of attitudes is inextricably linked to the sphere of actions.

I had this argument with my conservative wana-be friend a week or so ago. I said we need to keep our noses out of their business. He claims that they have been attacking us since the 70's. Now I don't know much about politics in the 70's so if someone can enlighten me as to why we were having problems with terrorist attacks back then, I would appreciate it.

Anyways, I feel that if the USA, and every country for that matter would pay mind to the problems within their country and worry themselves less about what other people do, the world would be a better place. Yes, the human rights issues in some of these countries are horrible, but you can't help people who don't want to help themselves.

Also I am really tired of the war over the holy land. I'm sure God would like it better if they shared it together in harmony. However if they want to be stupid and fight over it, I say we stay out of it.

The issue of how we view the people of Iran is now crucial. Are they simply potential collateral damage? Or civilized human beings who no more deserve to be bombed than you or me?

My main contention remains that if we in the West perceived people of Muslim background as in no way less than ourselves we would be horrified at the idea of them being on the receiving end of military ordnance. If we replace the word 'Muslim' with 'French' or 'Mexican', for example, we would surely never dream of bombing them in any preemptive manner.

reply to post by pause4thought


hello

whist i believe individuals should be treated with respect i cant say the same as a Christian for any other faith system. i respect the rights of individuals to practice this. however i will NOT recognise it as valid.

If i do this negates my own faith and the words of Jesus.

That said i must not do anything that could turn people away from the Lord and this would include hateful/spiteful derision of that faith system to the best of my ability.

IMHO

my faith is not about interfaith or ecumenicalism

David

reply to post by drevill


Have no fear I am not promoting anything like the ecumenical movement, which sweeps under the carpet the differences between what people believe, pretending they are not important, etc.

The issue here is that the populace widely accepts military action against nations which differ from themselves culturally, in a way that I believe is nowadays virtually unthinkable were the 'other side' more akin to themselves.

The greater the ignorance concerning the other nation, the easier it is for politicians to get the electorate to accept military action against them. With respect to Muslim nations my basic premise is that the cultural/linguistic gulf is large, with the result that people very easily fail to realise that they are just going about their daily lives, concerned with family and work, etc., in the same way as we are, and are not directly to blame for their government's policies and statements, even if the leaders sound belligerent and uncompromising, as in the case of Iran.

I'll try another illustration. If the devastation of Iraq had been the consequence of our government's actions in, say, Holland or Canada, I believe we would look at the tens of thousands of civilian victims, the so-called 'collateral damage', with such profound horror that we would find the whole situation so disturbing that there would be mass demonstrations on the streets.

As it is, we watch the news, see a load of dead and maimed 'foreigners' to whom we can't relate, then forget the instant the adverts come on.

I don't have to agree with what Muslims believe in order to say that the life of an Iraqi or an Iranian is as valuable as the life of an American or a Brit.

reply to post by pause4thought


no problem

i understand that, i just like to make myself clear. we are to pray for our enemies not destroy them

Originally posted by bodrul

they claim to fight for Muslims but if they were they would follow the guidelines of WAR as put in the Quran.

if you like i can show you what the Quran says about war and how one should fight?

Are you sure you know what the Qu'ran says ?

reply to post by Ersatz


being Muslim
i should know

copy and paste the link

www.islamonline.net...(removespace)servlet/Satellite?pagename=IslamOnline-English-Ask_Scholar/FatwaE/FatwaE&cid=1119503545840

source 3
1-Personal Behavior of the Troops:

In war, as it is in peace, the instructions of Islam are to be observed. Worship does not cease in war. Islamic jurisprudence maintains that whatever is prohibited during peace is also prohibited during war. War is no excuse to be lenient with misbehaving troops. The Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, is reported to have said: “Beware of the prayer of the oppressed; for there is no barrier between it and Allah.” Here, the Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, differentiates between the oppressed believers and non-believers.

2-Whom to Fight:

Fighting should be directed only against fighting troops, and not to non- fighting personnel, and this is in compliance with the Qur’anic verse that reads: “ Fight in the way of Allah against those who fight against you, but begin not hostilities. Lo! Allah loveth not, aggressors.” (Al-Baqarah: 190)

In one of the battles, a woman was found killed, and this was denounced by the Prophet saying "She did not fight" This will be further detailed under the instructions given to the armies and their commanding chiefs by the Prophet and his Caliphs.

3-The Prophet's instructions to Commanding Chiefs:

The Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, used to instruct his commanding chiefs saying: “Fight in the cause of Allah. Fight those who deny Allah; Do not be embittered. Do not be treacherous. Do not mutilate. Do not kill children or those (people) in convents.”

good reads

edit: the first links been changed since 2007



[edit on 16-8-2008 by bodrul]

reply to post by bodrul



Please tell me, I am curious to know.

reply to post by Ersatz


i edited my other posts with two links

Dear Bodrul,

I am not going to have a discussion with a link, and I can provide links that say the opposite.

As I see it, Islam incites violence against the Kafirs, 80% of the world population is Kafir (non believer).

If a doctrine teaches,

2:191 And slay them wherever ye catch them
2:193 And fight them on until there is no more fitna (sedition, opposition, mischief).
3:28 Let not the believers take for friends or helpers unbelievers rather than believers: if any do that, in nothing will there be help from Allah
8:55 The worst beasts in Allah's sight are the disbelievers.
9:28, Truly the Pagans are unclean; so let them not, after this year of theirs, approach the Sacred Mosque.

The doctrine should be banned.

Will talk again to morrow if you are still there.

Khuda Hafiz.

reply to post by drevill

we are to pray for our enemies not destroy them

I'm glad you said that. That is indeed the Christian attitude.

BUT

I believe it would be totally wrong to assume Muslims are our enemies per se. I would only count someone an enemy if they personally were intent on violence against me, my relatives or my compatriots. I maintain that most Muslims are not extremists bent on violence.

And nations with a Christian heritage should not be giving Muslims an excuse to accuse them of violent aggression, which, as you say, is the very opposite of what Christ taught.

reply to post by Ersatz


as i said many times
read the full verse. there you have provided

AL-BAQARA first text you posted

[2.191] And slay them wherever ye catch them, and turn them out from where

they have Turned you out; for tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter;

but fight them not at the Sacred Mosque, unless they (first) fight you there;

but if they fight you, slay them. Such is the reward of those who suppress
faith.

holyquranenglish.tripod.com...

some other verses that seem to be nit picked

www.submission.org...

2.191

[2:191] You may kill those who wage war against you, and you may evict them whence they evicted you. Oppression is worse than murder. Do not fight them at the Sacred Masjid, unless they attack you therein. If they attack you, you may kill them. This is the just retribution for those disbelievers.

[2:193] You may also fight them to eliminate oppression, and to worship GOD freely. If they refrain, you shall not aggress; aggression is permitted only against the aggressors.

all here

www.submission.org...
also
www.jannah.org...

and last of all

holyquranenglish.tripod.com...

up to people if they read the full surahs in the quran then nit pick
and having to reply to the same nit picked quotes many times on ATS

i have said i will keep out of topics or stop replying to topics if people just do that.

edit:

and yes you can provide links to dispute that
but how much should i bet that those links would have the same words but reorganised or nit picked from the quran to the agenda of the site?



[edit on 16-8-2008 by bodrul]

reply to post by pause4thought


hello

my understanding of enemies are those that are not Gods children already.

i wouldn't define it in geographic or social terms

david

reply to post by drevill


Hmm. Well, having studied the Bible daily for nearly thirty years (and reading Christian literature extensively) I have to say I have never come across anything that would accord with such a stance. I have never encountered any Christian, preacher or author who even hinted at such an interpretation either today or throughout the entire history of the church. I can only suggest it is a misunderstanding.

I also have to say that if promoted, such a stance would increase inter-faith tensions and intensify existing hostility between nations and individuals.

The Bible teaches that we all have one Maker, and we should treat all as equals.

Did not the One who made me in the womb also make them? Did not the same God form us both in the womb?

Job 31:15

The Jews had been commanded by God: "Love your neighbour as yourself". When a man asked Jesus who his neighbour was, he responded by telling the parable of the Good Samaritan (Luke 10:29-37). Rather than separating people into those who are and are not our neighbour he made a Samaritan, regarded by the Jews as an enemy (as they had mixed Biblical beliefs with pagan teachings,) the hero of the parable. Jesus' final remark turned the whole thing on its head:

Which of these three do you think proved to be a neighbour to the man who fell into the hands of the robbers?

(verse 36)

The point is clear: we are not to divide people into those who are our neighbour and those who are not. We are to show kindness and compassion to all, indiscriminately.

People only become enemies when they are actively hostile. And, as you have said, even then Christ taught us to pray for them and only do good to them.

reply to post by pause4thought


well time served is no indication of anything

Echthros

used of men as at enmity with God by their sin
opposing (God) in the mind.

praying and loving your enemy can only drive them towards God, when i say Gods children i meant as those that are saved as apposed to those who are not.

those that oppose God

david

reply to post by drevill

well time served is no indication of anything

That is why I was emphasizing not my own thinking, but what others have said in the Bible, in commentaries, in sermons and across a wide breadth of Christian literature.

If someone's sin means they are at enmity with God it doesn't mean they cannot be my friend!

reply to post by pause4thought


Hello

i believe it depends on the sinner, are they truly repentant before the lord or are they a non believer at odds with God?

2 Corinthians 6:11-18

david

reply to post by drevill



drevill you are confusing Christian fellowship and friendship. This seems to be the root of the misunderstanding.