The most invalid argument concerning 9/11

reply to post by ULTIMA1


I think its funny how many people do not bother to research things before they make posts. Plenty of personal effects of the passengers were found...driver's licenses, bank/credit cards, planners, clothing etc...

As for a passport or similar object surviving a crash....yes it happens....I mean they recovered paper notebooks, patches and videotapes from the wreckage of Columbia...pretty sure that they were subjected to more extreme conditions than a passport on the 9/11 flights.....

Originally posted by Swampfox46_1999
I think its funny how many people do not bother to research things before they make posts.

I mean they recovered paper notebooks, patches and videotapes from the wreckage of Columbia...pretty sure that they were subjected to more extreme conditions than a passport on the 9/11 flights.....

I think its funny people do not do any reseasrch on 9/11 they just belienve what they see on TV.

I also think its funny how NASA spent more time investigating the Columbia accident then the FBI did investigating the Pentagon crime scene.


[edit on 4-4-2008 by ULTIMA1]

Originally posted by ULTIMA1

I also think its funny how NASA spent more time investigating the Columbia accident then the FBI did investigating the Pentagon crime scene.

Was the Columbia accident confined to one building/structure?

No.

How many states was the Columbia debris scattered across? The bodies?

I find it hard to believe this passport made it to the ground, barely scratched (if I remember right, gotta look for a picture of it, maybe the PTB had the forethought to singe the edges with a bic), when it had to be inside the alleged hijackers pocket, or inside his carry-on bag.

I also wonder how many passenger wallets were found from the passengers on board the same plane, that were as intact, or almost as intact as this passport? Now that would be something interesting to find out.

To me it rings of a plant.

Just like the red bandana found in Shanksville. Now this one is impossible because the Commisions report has this plane going into the ground like a dart. I'd be suprise if anything survived , let alone a bandana.

But who knows, maybe this is normal, I'm no airplane crash expert.

Originally posted by Disclosed

Originally posted by ULTIMA1

I also think its funny how NASA spent more time investigating the Columbia accident then the FBI did investigating the Pentagon crime scene.

Was the Columbia accident confined to one building/structure?

No.

How many states was the Columbia debris scattered across? The bodies?

Was Bill Clintons "affairs" confined to a whole building and a plane. Or just a single room? 0 deaths too.

Compared to the what are the figures this year 3,000 from 9/11, innocent Americans.

Yet they spent alot more money investigating Clinton. WT......

Where the heck are the governments priorities????

I'll tell you where they are: They are right where they wanna be, when they are trying to encite the American public to wanna go to war.


I mean if you REALLY wanna compare aplles and oranges Swamp_fox, I thought more of you, I guess your a bit rusty, missed you for the last couple weeks, WB, btw.

But please lets not compare Columbia, to 9/11, or to Clinton, or to any other investigations where money is needed. Different circumstances, different times, ect. All apples and oranges.

As smart as you are SF, I can't understand how you can not see 9/11 as a textbook false flag operation, aided by the media, and planted witnesses, and rallying cries the night of 9/11 that Osama Bin Laden did it. Also Rice and the President telling bold face lies that they never dreamed terrorists would use hijacked airplaned as missiles to be slammed into buildings.

C'mon your smarter than that. The only conclusion I can come to with you, (not the others backing the Commission report), is you have ulterior motives. I guess you gotta do what you gotta do ya?

[edit on 4-4-2008 by Nola213]

[edit on 4-4-2008 by Nola213]

[edit on 4-4-2008 by Nola213]

But what happens when molten aluminum comes in to contact with any or all of the following.

Lets see -

Magnesium - ignite it as molten aluminium above ignition temp

Titanium - nothing

Steel - nothing

Jet Fuel - ignite it

Oxygen - aluminium ignites (as would red hot iron in oxygen rich
atmosphere - basis for thermic cutting lance)

Concrete - nothing, may cause some spalling from steam generated by
entrained water

Have seen (and extinguished) magnesium fires in automotive engine
compartments while impressive doesn't not result in melting of steel
Of course everything is warped out of shape and useless.

Originally posted by Disclosed
Was the Columbia accident confined to one building/structure?

But it was an accident not a crime scene.

Originally posted by thedman
Have seen (and extinguished) magnesium fires in automotive engine
compartments while impressive doesn't not result in melting of steel
Of course everything is warped out of shape and useless.

Well car fire is not going to be as great as the amount what would be caused by the amount of hazmat material on the planes.

What is unbelievable about this story of a passport being found amidst the debris of one of the towers is not that it survived unburnt (although unlikely, that was not impossible) but, rather, that it belonged to one of the hijackers. First multiply the chance of a passport surviving the fireball resulting from the impact by the chance of it not being burnt by subsequent fires. Then multiply this figure by the chance of it surviving not being shredded by all the surrounding explosions as the tower collapsed. Then multiply that figure by the chance of it belonging not to a passenger but to a hijacker. Finally, multiply that figure by the chance of someone spotting the passport amidst all the debris! You don't need to do the calculation to realise that the final figure for the chance of the passport both surviving intact and belonging to a hijacker is very small indeed.

Maybe some of you don't mind believing in miracles, but I prefer to believe in the more plausible scenario, namely, that the passport was planted as phony evidence in support of the scenario the US government wanted the world to believe. As far as I am concerned, it can be seen as an argument for the view that the planes that crashed into the two towers never had hijackers on board at all, for why would the 9/11 plotters bother to do this unless there were no hijackers and they felt concerned to provide evidence that there were such people on board the planes?

That's why this story is unbelievable, not because a passport survived the destruction. It is only an invalid argument to those who have not considered all the improbable circumstances that have to be assumed for this passport to have been found by accident.

[edit on 5-4-2008 by micpsi]

reply to post by micpsi


micpsi, very interesting analysis. I've sat this one out, but I see good arguments from both sides.

Yours reminded me, though, of a terrible airliner accident in Detroit some years ago...I didn't go Google it yet, just spouting off the top of my head here from memory...It was a NorthWest MD-80 bound for Phoenix (I lived in Phoenix at the time, so it got a lot of media there, as in Detroit as well).

Completely full MD-80, horrible crash...one survivor. One!! A little girl.

Out of all the carnage and subsequent fires, twisted wreckage, a small child found virtually unscathed.

Strange things happen, it seems.....

WW

[added after looking it up]

Found at 'Aviation Safety Network' website: The DC-9-82 (an 'MD-80' is basically an up-designed DC-9, and has various iterations) The accident occurred 16 AUG 1987. It was Registration number was 'N312RC' (this tells me it once belonged to the old Republic Airlines, which had previously merged with Northwest).

No exact details about the little girl who survived, but you'll see in the stats that there was one survivor. Two fatalities on the ground...

WW

[edit on 4/5/0808 by weedwhacker]

Originally posted by weedwhacker
Strange things happen, it seems.....

Yes strange things happen but some things are just against normal odds.

Like the odds of finding more things belonging to the hijackers then the passengers.

Originally posted by ULTIMA1

Originally posted by Disclosed
Was the Columbia accident confined to one building/structure?

But it was an accident not a crime scene.

[/quote

So why are you comparing the Columbia accident and the Pentagon then? If one was an accident and one was a crime scene?

Sounds like apples and oranges.]

Originally posted by Disclosed
So why are you comparing the Columbia accident and the Pentagon then?

Yes it is apples and oranges, i do not know why the people that believe the officail story brought it up.



[edit on 5-4-2008 by ULTIMA1]

reply to post by ULTIMA1


ULTIMA...I was only responding to what micpsi wrote, and how it prompted that memory of the Detroit accident.

So far, I have only heard of one hijacker's person objects being found, perhaps you can reveal all you know, i.e., the various personal effects fround of all victims...the ones that, at least, weren't stolen by some (not all) of people on the scene.

Also, in 2001 only a small percentage of American citizens even HAD a passport. Many many only travelled as far as Canada or Mexico, and a Driver's License would suffice. That was then......

So who knows? A paper document, ejected randomly during the chaos of a huge explosion...and a human child also escaping with no injuries....

WW

Originally posted by weedwhacker
So far, I have only heard of one hijacker's person objects being found, perhaps you can reveal all you know, i.e., the various personal effects fround of all victims...the ones that, at least, weren't stolen by some (not all) of people on the scene.

WOW, i am always surprised by how little people know about what happened that day.

You did not hear about all the paperwork and stuff left behind in bags and luggage by the hijackers at other airports?

reply to post by gormly


amazing...you say "regardless of container, heat, speed,position in plane, that is alot of disregarding...amazing too, is that the intact passport just happened to be that of the hijacker, and apparently he did not have it on his person (pockets) or if he did it leaped out of his clothing came out of the plane and landed on the ground perfectly intact. you say you use common sense to deduce this. did you watch the WHOLE plane enter the building? if the impact happened on the ground or a solid object, debris from the simple concusive wave, would have thrown articles out, possibly unscathed, as have been seen in countless other crashes...but the WHOLE AIRPLANE went into the building...it didn't explode on the outside wall which would have had the aformentioned concusive wave. but you are talking about the "possibility" of this passport being blown out. and most of the people that disagree with you, are saying the odds are so long, for this to happen, that it defies logic, or in your case, common sense.

this taken with all the other problems of the governments story..the COMBINED IMPROBABLE HAPPENINGS actually defy common sense when taken as a whole. remember, 21 million dollars were spent on this investigation, where over 3,000 people were killed, 50 million dollars was spent on nasa's shuttle disaster investigation, where 7 people were killed. and what happened on 9/11 wasn't as neat and tidy compared to the shuttle disaster, as far as the investigative conclusions were concerned.

reply to post by ULTIMA1


ULTIMA, I did in fact hear reports of Boeing Flight Manuals and such left in the rental cars in the parking lots of various airports.

What I'm wondering is, how many other personal effects, from other people, were found at the crash sites?

Back to the rental cars, we hear very little afterwards....what EXACTLY wass found in the cars? Perhaps you've done the research. I'm not sure I ever heard any investication into the apartments where some of them lived, in New Jersey, or where ever...what was found there, any hotel rooms they may have rented, etc, etc, etc....this is the kind of stuff that needs to be brought out into the light.

Of course...in the chance that it is a 'false flag' Op, then this trail won't exist....see my point? Without this kind of corroboration, then the 'false flag' theory gets more traction....

Sidenote, perhaps some have heard of a very good Documentary, I Tivo'd, just beginning to see it, PBS Frontline called 'Bush's War'. Check it out!

WW

Hi all

The Facts about what really happened on 911, will probably never be told.
We know we were lied to by our Government, and their reports just dont stand up to science.
We know our Government is hideing something that happened that day .
But what?
We know our Government refused to investigate anything that happened that day.
1. Building been brought down.
2. Four airplane crashes.
3. what happened to Norrad that day.
4. What happened to FAA that day.
These four questions have not been answer with sciencetific proof by our Government.
Answer 1. buidings are gone, nothing to test no way of finding the truth now.
2. All the planes are gone, desposed of nothing to test no parts to run any test on.
3. Norad will never talk, from my under standing thier still under gag orders.
4. FAA will not tell the truth of what they know they to are under gag orders
We all know the doors closed on 911 at the Bush Administration.
The bush Administration has seal all their records of what they really know forever.
With all the scerecy from our Government about 911, it leaves the door to Conspiracies what did they expect.
But one thing we all know, is the Bush Adminstration has not ever investigated 911
I wounder why?
18 months after 911 happened the Bush Adminstration was force to form a 911 Commisstion, what a joke!
There final 911 Commisstion report was a white wash, a cover up. A book that was writting so well that No one was held accountable for not doing their jobs.
The NIST reports in the 911 Commisstion do not stand up to proper Science.
Until Americans stand up against this evil, corrupt Government and demand the truth, and a new investigation in to 911, WE THE PEOPLE will never know the truth!
And as long as we sit back and do nothing, JUST EXPECT NOTHING!
The Bush adminstration just feels, they dont have to answer us.

Originally posted by weedwhacker
Perhaps you've done the research.

Yes i have done research.

Besides the cars material was left behind in luggage at another airport were the plane decided not to take off after the waring about the first hijackings. The hijackers took off and left all kinds of books, paperwork, scheduals, and IDs

Just seems all little to good, if theyt planned that much ahead just to leave all the evidecne behind for it to be found.

reply to post by Nola213



Once again, an illustration of my earlier point...which appearantly confused some on here. You question how a passport could have survived the crash....and yet we know that PAPERS and VIDEOTAPES survived the Columbia hitting the atmosphere at Mach 25 and breaking apart into flaming wreckage that fell to the earth. And you still wonder how a passport could survive an airliner accident?

And yes, we do know that plenty of the personal effects belonging to the passengers were recovered.

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