The most invalid argument concerning 9/11

the people who follow the 911 conspiracy are gullable morons. i mean that in a nice way, but still, morons.

[edit on 3-4-2008 by fastfingersfunk]

Moderator note. Please review this thread.
Dealing with 9/11 Madness (argumentum ad hominem veritas)

[edit on 4-4-2008 by dbates]

Originally posted by fastfingersfunk
the people who follow the 911 conspiracy are gullable morons. i mean that in a nice way, but still, morons.

Not as bad as the people who still believe the official story that live in a fantasy world and cannot accept reallity.

I mean 7 years and no one who believes the official story can produce any official reports or physical evidence to support the official story.

Gee, not 1 passport or other ID belonging to a passenger.

Thats because all the flights were DOMESTIC - originating and terminating
in the US. Travelling inside of the US citizens do not need passports -
foreigners do, or at least carry them with them while travelling.

To get this thread back on track.

Al-Suqami's passport was found by a passerby, reportedly in the vicinity of Vesey Street[4], before the towers collapsed. [5] (This was mistakenly reported by many news outlets to be Mohammed Atta's passport.) Some news organizations openly doubted the authenticity of this report, [6], questioning whether a paper passport could survive the inferno unsinged when the plane's black boxes were never found. According to testimony before the 9/11 Commission by lead counsel Susan Ginsburg, his passport had been "manipulated in a fraudulent manner in ways that have been associated with al Qaeda." [5] Passports belonging to Ziad Jarrah and Saeed al Ghamdi were found at the crash site of United Airlines flight #93.

en.wikipedia.org...

Take it for what it's worth.

Where the black boxes found? The indestructible ones? What's more likely to survive?

And also, the NEWS where openly scratching their heads on this one.

[edit on 4/3/2008 by Griff]

reply to post by Griff


Griff,

What do you think about the 3 year old girl's luggage tag that was found in the rubble of the Pentagon?

Thanks dude

reply to post by CaptainObvious


I think it's very sad that whole family had to go through that.



I have never said it is impossible. Probable on the other hand gets slimmer.

Especially when the black boxes weren't found. Unless the wikipedia article is incorrect on that. Where they found?

You can claim the collapse destroyed them. But then you'd be saying all the steel would also be destroyed since the black boxes are made of titanium I believe. A metal stronger than steel.

Specifications

Flight Data Recorder
Time recorded 25 hour continuous
Number of parameters 18 - 1000+
Impact tolerance 3400Gs / 6.5 ms
Fire resistance 1100 degC / 30 min
Water pressure resistance submerged 20,000 ft
Underwater locator beacon 37.5 KHz; battery has shelf life of 6 years or more, with 30-day operation capability upon activation



Cockpit Voice Recorder
Time recorded 30 min continuous, 2 hours for solid state digital units
Number of channels 4
Impact tolerance 3400Gs / 6.5 ms
Fire resistance 1100 degC / 30 min
Water pressure resistance submerged 20,000 ft
Underwater locator beacon 37.5 KHz; battery has shelf life of 6 years or more, with 30-day operation capability upon activation

www.ntsb.gov...

What's that about an underwater locator that has a battery life of 6 years with operation life of 30 days? Couldn't they activate it and at least find the location of them and search that area a little more? Even if the 30 days ran out, the location should have been known. Correct?



[edit on 4/3/2008 by Griff]

reply to post by Griff


Point taken Griff. You're the Engineer, can you please tell us how much energy would be created "if" this was a collapse?

I am also curious... is this the only times that black boxes were never found?

Griff -
Flight Data Recorder (FDR) and Cockpit Voice Recorder (CVR) were both
recovered fromt crash scenes at Pentagon and Shanksville (Flight 93)

Neither were found at WTC sites.

Tape from CVR at Pentagon was too badly damaged to yield useful
information, FDR was in good enough shape. Both CVR/FDR at
Shanksville were in decent shape to yield information.

en.wikipedia.org...

FDRs are usually located in the rear of the aircraft, typically in the tail. In this position, the entire front of the aircraft acts as a "crush zone" to reduce the shock that reaches the recorder. Also, modern FDRs are typically double wrapped, in strong corrosion-resistant stainless steel or titanium, with high-temperature insulation inside

Since the recorders can sometimes be crushed into unreadable pieces, or even never located in deep water, some modern units are self-ejecting (taking advantage of kinetic energy at impact to separate themselves from the aircraft) and also equipped with radio and sonar beacons (see emergency locator transmitter) to aid in their location.

While strong the boxes are not indestrucible.

en.wikipedia.org...

On 19 July 2005, the Safe Aviation and Flight Enhancement Act of 2005 was introduced and referred to the Committee on Transportation and Infrastructure of the U.S. House of Representatives. This bill would require installation of a second cockpit voice recorder, digital flight data recorder system and emergency locator transmitter that utilizes combination deployable recorder technology in each commercial passenger aircraft that is currently required to carry each of those recorders. The deployable recorder system would be ejected from the rear of the aircraft at the moment of an accident. The bill was referred to the Subcommittee on Aviation and has not progressed since.[5][6]

Originally posted by Griff
reply to post by CaptainObvious

 

I think it's very sad that whole family had to go through that.

I have never said it is impossible. Probable on the other hand gets slimmer.

Especially when the black boxes weren't found. Unless the wikipedia article is incorrect on that. Where they found?

You can claim the collapse destroyed them. But then you'd be saying all the steel would also be destroyed since the black boxes are made of titanium I believe. A metal stronger than steel.

Specifications

Flight Data Recorder
Time recorded 25 hour continuous
Number of parameters 18 - 1000+
Impact tolerance 3400Gs / 6.5 ms
Fire resistance 1100 degC / 30 min
Water pressure resistance submerged 20,000 ft
Underwater locator beacon 37.5 KHz; battery has shelf life of 6 years or more, with 30-day operation capability upon activation



Cockpit Voice Recorder
Time recorded 30 min continuous, 2 hours for solid state digital units
Number of channels 4
Impact tolerance 3400Gs / 6.5 ms
Fire resistance 1100 degC / 30 min
Water pressure resistance submerged 20,000 ft
Underwater locator beacon 37.5 KHz; battery has shelf life of 6 years or more, with 30-day operation capability upon activation

www.ntsb.gov...

What's that about an underwater locator that has a battery life of 6 years with operation life of 30 days? Couldn't they activate it and at least find the location of them and search that area a little more? Even if the 30 days ran out, the location should have been known. Correct?



[edit on 4/3/2008 by Griff]

Sorry to pull the full quote, but the box that 'Griff' and I count this member as a 'friend'...the box had a 'transcript'...and the firt thing I saw aw '25 hours' on a CVR.

Well, we all know that a CVR is only a 30 MINUTE loop of tape....of course, maybe with modern tech, they can go back and get layers and layers of info beyond.....but, you see, as long as there is power to Bus#1, or the 'left' bus, or the Battery Bus, or whatever bus is used on the airplane we are discussing, the CVR will continue to run. The CVR will only stop when its C/B is pulled, or when ALL electrical poere is removed from the airplane.

Modern jets now have something called ASAP...a DVD recorder system, and this is only supposed to be seen by the Union personnel....along with Airline Management, in certain extreme instances....but the idea is, ASAP data is 'de-identified' before seen by Management, so there is no jeopardy to the pilots....of course, extreme violations will result in being called in...makes sense. BUT the Union makes the call, at least in theory....

I jsut try to state facts, and deny ignorance and hearsay and bad information....

WW


I edit to say....OK, I jumped in, and made a fool of myself....so instead of deleting, I will just say I goofed, because the DFDR does record about 25 hours....I saw it, and made the mistake it was the DCVR.

Thing is, old days....the FDR only recorded, on a foil tape, and just things like heading, altitude, airspeed...etc. Modern DFDRs do much more, they also record control surface position, G forces, etc etc...much more that the old days, so we can re-create, by programming a Sim, in new ways....

So, let's get this stuff downloaded, and made available to us, not just for the Gen Public, but airline pilots who would know when we're getting smoke blown up our .... bums!!!

WW

[edit on 4/4/0808 by weedwhacker]

Why don't you all look at it in a more detailed way?

Start from the begining.

Where would the passport be located before the impact? In his pocket? In his luggage? Where was he located inside of the plane during impact? In the cockpit flying? Back with the passangers?

Visualize the exact location of this passport before impact. Now, imagine where it is at at the exact moment of impact. You would think that all the aluminum and all the fabric and all the other plastic and material that makes the plane a whole, would stop the passport from exiting the plane. Even after the explosion.

You would think that if the highjacker was in the cockpit flying, that the exact moment of impact into the side of the building would have compressed not only the body of the highjacker, but his password, and the chair he is sitting on, and the materail he is next to, all into one little hunk of wreckage like a car accident, and THEN the explosion happened.

Lets imagine the explosion a little more. The thing that explodes is the fuel tanks, nothing else. This isn't hollywood, this is the real deal. The gas tanks should have been the only thing that could blow up, and the tanks are located in the wings. Ask yourself, if the explosion is in the wings, and the passport is most probably in the pocket of the highjacker. Do you think the full force of the explosion reached the passport? Do you think other obsticles were in the path, protecting the passport?

---

You have to imagine in great detail how it would happen.

I.M.H.O. The explosion was not enough to destroy the passport. Nor was it powerfull enough to be able to magicly remove it from a pocket, sitting on a chair, sandwitched between a hunk of debris. I believe, if anything, the passport should have gotten stuck in the center of the building, and collapsed down with the building. Possibly being destroyed by the multen lava in the rubble, along side the black boxs.


When the news reported, 1 or 2 days after 9/11, that they found the passport. I know I was not the only one to have thought "REALLY?!?!". I actually think, that was the very first thing that made me double think 9/11. Possible or Not, it was the very thing that made most poeple look twice. Then, after looking twice at 9/11 they unconvered more of these little "really?!?!" moments that the goverment feeds us.

I think a lot of people need to go back and study other airline crashes, most, if not all have little bits that survive (passports, luggage, papers etc) even though the whole plane and people practically disintegrate. So it’s not unusual for a passport to survive, it’s actually common.

People who use the Passport as proof of an inside job forget to include everything else that was found. The passport was NOT the only piece of debris from the plane found.

An airplane seat was found lodged in that golden globe thing that was in the plaza of the WTC. Hundreds of letters that where in mail bags on the planes survived – one was even shown on TV as someone in NYC who found the letter on the street posted it and it eventually got to where it was meant to get to that day.

Hundreds and thousands of items where found, Passport, Drivers licence, Work ID, etc etc. It’s NORMAL and EXPECTED!

Mikey


[edit on 4/4/2008 by Mikey84]

reply to post by ALLis0NE


AllisONE....

The passport thing is wierd, but I didn't write about that.

I just wanted to mention, that not all of the fuel was in the wings.

The B767 has a very large CENTER fuel tank...as does the B757, and smaller, but the B737 too.....

Point is, an airplane fueled for a 'Trans-Con' flight will have about 100,000 lbs of fuel onboard, depending on forecast WX at destination, +- 2 hours from ETA...

Each wing tank holds about 15,000 lbs....so the rest is put into the Center Tank....

All tank pumps are turned on, as part of the 'Before Engine Start' checklist...if it's a short flight, with no Center fuel, then we don't turn those pumps on....here's how Boeing designed the airplanes, this applies to the B757 and B767....We turn on all pumps, when the tanks have fuel in them. The CENTER pumps (the ones in the CENTER tank) provide a slightly higher output pressure than the pumps in the Wings. There are valves in the system as well....to prevent 'backflow'....this ensures that the center tank gets exhausted first....

Once the Center tank is exhausted, we start to see yellow 'pump press' lights....and of course, we also see the fuel quantity gauge!!!

So, dry out the center tank, then turn off the pumps....this is a simple procedure, we control the pumps with swiches in the cockpit. After that, it remains 'tank to engine'....because the whole system has a valve, in the center, that is closed uless we open it....it is called the 'crossflow valve'. This is in case we have one engine shutdown, and need to access fuel from the other side, not only to provide for the engine, but to balance as well, in that kind of emergency....

OK, I have provided a lot of information, hope it helps people understand what it takes to be a pilot....

WW

As for paper and light objects survivng, I think that's fairly well proven. but just to add to this, when the Hindenburg burnt, letters and paper were recovered from it. One of the letters was even sent out and recived by it's iintended. It's since ended up in the Spmithonian.

reply to post by RuneSpider


Rune....is this a true story??? Papers from the Hindenberg SURVIVED?!?!

WOW, never heard this before. Would love to hear more....

BTW, not being sarcastic....I just think it shines a light on how random events can be, in seemingly well-examined events.......

Best, WW

reply to post by weedwhacker


Yes, this is true, it was ona program about the Institute itself. I don't have ny links available for you, but if you were to search the Institutes main site, or Wiki I'm sure you would find out about it.

Just like every other conspiracy, we'll never find out the real truth, so what's the point?

reply to post by gormly

How can a passport possibly survive an explosion and 1800 degrees of fire?

This is the supposed smoking gun.
That’s why I started this topic...I get so damn annoyed when I see this put forth as proof, I just want to shake the ignoramus who holds this as his single proof that everything is a lie.

Feel free to shake the ignoramus on my behalf. If you can find him. I've yet to hear anyone who hangs their theories about 9/11 on a single surviving passport.

They would have to be ignorant indeed when there's such a colossal body of contradictory evidence, much of it more significant.

That you single out one piece of data as the be-all and end-all, presumably because you think it's the easiest to dismiss, makes me doubt your sincerity.

That said, as even the mainstream media noticed at the time, the circumstances around the perfectly unscathed passport are highly suspicious.


[edit on 4-4-2008 by EvilAxis]

Let's explore this a little more.

Al-Saqami was on flight 11.

Satam M. A. al-Suqami (Arabic: سطام السقامي) (born June 28, 1976; died September 11, 2001), was one of five men named by the FBI as hijackers of American Airlines Flight 11 in the September 11, 2001 attacks.

en.wikipedia.org...

Flight 11 hit the North tower (WTC 1) the first hit.

Flight 11 hit the tower from the North.

Vessey street is located to the North of Tower 1.

His passport was suppossedly found in the vicinity of Vessey Street before any tower collapsed.

Al-Suqami's passport was found by a passerby, reportedly in the vicinity of Vesey Street[4], before the towers collapsed.

en.wikipedia.org...



So, this passport which was traveling at 500 mph, hits the north facade of the tower and then is found to the north? Wouldn't it be logical to say that it would probably have traveled to the south side of the tower?

Also, this was a square on hit with minimal debris exiting the building. But, this passport bounces off the building to be found on the same side as the plane hit? Does this make sense to anyone?

Not only did we discover on 9/11 that steel framed towers implode when heated but personal id survives better than armour-plated black boxes designed to survive fire and catastrophe.

9/11 Commission Report, footnote 76, Chapter 1:

The CVRs and FDRs from American 11 and United 175 were not found, and the CVR from American Flight 77 was badly burned and not recoverable.

Capt. Ingledue, Virginia Beach Fire Dept who found the perfectly clean and unblemished California ID card of Suzanne Calley, one of the alleged victims aboard Flight 77 amidst the rubble at the Pentagon two days after 9/11:

I remember thinking it was highly unusual and strange to find a perfectly intact ID card amidst all that devastation

Originally posted by CaptainObvious
I am also curious... is this the only times that black boxes were never found?

Ted Lopatkiewicz, spokesman for the National Transportation Safety Board:

It's extremely rare that we don't get the recorders back. I can't recall another domestic case in which we did not recover the recorders

[edit on 4-4-2008 by EvilAxis]

reply to post by Griff


Well done.

Yeah, you would think, if this guy was in the cockpit and he had the passport in his pocket. The explosion from the gas tanks would be BEHIND him. The explosion should have forced the passport even FURTHER away from where it was supposedly found.


It's just a sad fact the evidence was fake.


[edit on 4-4-2008 by ALLis0NE]