It looks like you're using an Ad Blocker.
Please white-list or disable AboveTopSecret.com in your ad-blocking tool.
Thank you.
Some features of ATS will be disabled while you continue to use an ad-blocker.
Rev. Ouseley writes: Preface to the Gospel of the Holy 12
"The early Christian Fathers did well their work of destroying the sources and records from which they gathered the information and data put by them in the Bible. But they failed to destroy it all. Some escaped, and as it is discovered here and there by patient research workers, it is astonishing to see how the world has been deceived by the Christian Fathers
Reluctant Messenger
Jesus Christ himself seem directly connected to terms and ideas in the Book of Enoch.
Originally posted by pause4thought
I can only say that you are deaf to the response I gave in the other thread
(after you said common sense tells any sensible individual Jesus said much more than was documented):
The earliest undisputed manuscript of a New Testament book is the John Rylands papyri (p52), dated back from 117 to 138. This fragment of John's gospel survives from within a generation of composition. Since the book was composed in Asia Minor and this fragment was found in Egypt, some circulation time is demanded, surely placing composition of John within the first century.
Whole books (Bodmer Papyri) are available from 200. Most of the New Testament, including all the gospels, is available in the Chester Beatty Papyri manuscript from 150 yeas after the New Testament was finished (ca. 250). No other book from the ancient world has as small a time gap between composition and earliest manuscript copies as the New Testament.
Jose O'Callahan, a Spanish Jesuit paleographer, made headlines around the world on March 18, 1972, when he identified a manuscript fragment from Qumran (Dead Sea Scrolls) as a piece from the gospel of Mark. The piece was from Cave 7. Fragments from this cave had previously been dated between 50 BC and AD 50, hardly within the time frame established for New Testament writings. Using the accepted methods of papyrology and palaeography, O'Callahan compared sequences of letters with existing documents and eventually identified nine fragments as belonging to one gospel, Acts, and few epistles. Some of these were dated slightly later than 50, but still extremely early...
Originally posted by Granton
Let me begin by acknowledging that I am new here - to the threads and to BTS/ATS - hope that you don't me barging into the conversation. A lot of good information is being discussed. Please allow me to also comment that I am a Christian.
As an accurate document, I think that the New Testament is as reliable as any other ancient writing we have. Straight off, it is reliable because so much has been inspired by what is written. Whether anyone likes it or not, it is what so much of Christianity is based on. So that makes it the reliable account -- now before someone says I am being circular - the question everyone is dancing around is "did these things actually happen?" That is a different questions than are these the reliable tenants of Christianity.
Even for folks who say the events didn't happen, and the New Testament isn't authentic, how can the rise and spread of Christianity be explained? It wasn't easy to be a follower of Christ in the early days - if there wasn't something to it, some group of people that at least acknowledged there was something to this Jesus fellow - how did it survive? If there was not something worthwhile about Jesus to take note of --- wouldn't he have been forgotten altogether? Is someone suggesting the notion of a Jesus character as portrayed by the gospels was just made up out of thin air?
I realize asking that, is not offering any evidence of the authenticity of the New Testament - I am honestly just curious.
Also, I am curious to hear what people say about things like the Nag Hammadi library, the Gospel of Thomas, the alleged "Q" source, etc...
My view is that the New Testament is a reliable source of information about Jesus, but can't exactly be taken like a Hansard or court transcript. As much as they had been influenced by first hand witnesses, they were influenced by a lot of others too - to what audience they were directed, other common myth/stories/traditions
going gently,
G.
I strongly suggest you read the god delusion by Richard Dawkins.
The fact is if Jesus existed he wasn't the son of god. For this to be true there would have to be a god and minds free of indoctrination know there is no god.
If Jesus did exist he was either delusional and thought he was the son of god, he was a con man who wanted attention or he was mentally ill.
There is simply no proof that there is a god there is only religious philosophy.
Then you clearly haven't understood the god delusion
you are so deep into religion that you are not open to the possibility that it may be nonsense.
The reason I call the absence of god a fact is simple...
...There is not a shred of evidence to prove otherwise.
The books of the bible do not constitute evidence in my opinion.
I will leave you with a common yet unanswered question. If there is a creator the who created him?
Please explain to me why you ignore everything I say about the old testament and just cling to Jesus and the new testament.
I know that it is hard to defend the old testament
I consider the contents of the new testament unreliable because they were written decades and even centuries after Jesus may or may not have lived. They were not even written by people who allegedly met Jesus
We also have to consider that when Constantine put the Bible together he omitted scriptures that conflicted with other scriptures. This tells me that Constantine in fact decided what Christians now accept as the truth when in fact another omitted scripture may be closer to the truth than those included in the Bible.
The First Council of Nicaea was a council of Christian bishops convened in Nicaea in Bithynia (present-day İznik in Turkey) by the Roman Emperor Constantine I in AD 325...
Misconceptions
The biblical canon
A number of erroneous views have been stated regarding the council's role in establishing the biblical canon. In fact, there is no record of any discussion of the biblical canon at the council at all. The development of the biblical canon was nearly complete by the time the Muratorian fragment was written in about 160 AD...
I completely disregard Bruce because he clearly has an agenda, he believes in the Bible
but even they aren't so daft as to pretend Jesus hadn't actually existed...
Why, then, in the light of all the evidence do you kid yourself that a key historical figure wasn't real?
Such a talented Sage and Magickian would surely have been written about by all Historians.
And those of us who have taken time to search out the truth about the whole Christian story are not in denial, we just know better, and are very sorry that you do not.
The old testament states that the earth is around six thousand years old.
I don't think we could do that now out of timber.
And he was supposed to gather two of every creature, really? That would take decades if not centuries.
And why is there no mention of animals such as kangaroos in the bible? Simple man did not know they existed when man wrote the bible.
The old testament states that the earth is around six thousand years old.
I'm sorry to keep bringing up the old testament
please stop trying to justify your beliefs by saying millions more share them. Millions of people can and are frequently wrong. Strength in numbers is not evidence
I say atheism is correct because we actively seek the truth through science.
The old testament states that the earth is around six thousand years old.
It contains no such statement. Have you even read it once?
source
The Bible says the world is about six thousand years old. How do we arrive at that number?
The age of the earth
The Bible provides a complete genealogy from Adam to Jesus. You can go through the genealogies and add up the years. You'll get a total that is just over 4,000 years. Add the 2,000 years since the time of Jesus and you get just over 6,000 years since God created everything.
Is there anything wrong with figuring out the age of the earth this way? No. There is nothing to indicate the genealogies are incomplete. There is nothing to indicate God left anything out. There is nothing in the Bible that indicates in any way that the world is much older than 6,000 years old.