Top UK police chief is found dead

Originally posted by yellowbeard
"The alarm was raised after he sent the messages to various people, which caused concern for their safety and his own, the BBC has learnt."
This line from the BBC news report is the strangest thing, why the concern for their own safety as well as his own ?

spot on there, he was a kind man and cared about his family.

Why would he sends texts to cause terror in their minds.

he might have commited suicide somewhere he would be found by someone he knows who could handle the responsibilty of his death and who could ease everbody into the news. not on a mountain tying up emergency services and sending txts causing his loved ones terror and worry.

cheers

reply to post by huytonturbo


Has anyone got the content of those messages he sent?? This is a very suspicous start to this story!

Okay if the official story suggests he was out walking... fine let's go along with that.

If the winds were 'walkable' then let's assume their may have been other people up there... why no witnesses?

Originally posted by Freeborn
Now you are really beginning to piss me off with your antagonistic and aggresive posting.
Very easy from behind a monitor.

For someone claiming to be "eazy" and have thick skin, you sure get "pissed off" easily, Sir. May I recommend to you some herbs and some breathing techniques?

Originally posted by Freeborn
Now all I have said is that it would be best to wait until we know what the official line is and what evidence it is based on before starting to pull the official story to pieces and state "conspiracy".

You also insinuated it was a suicide. Then you said it was "likely a conspiracy," which, as I've pointed out several times, is no less a speculation than the very "opinions and methods" you were critisising. That was my whole point throughout this entire argument, Sir.

Originally posted by Freeborn
I fail to see how this can be construed as "falling for the official story", especially as there isn't one yet to fall for.

I haven't claimed that you have fallen for the official story.

Originally posted by Freeborn

Which contained unattributed speculations.

Sources provided:
www.bbc.co.uk...
www.timesonline.co.uk...
www.thesun.co.uk...
www.timesonline.co.uk...

Sources provided by you:
Zip.

Selective quoting, there. I said that the "friends" and "sources" used in those articles were unattributed speculations. Of all the information about texts and "worries of suicide prior" the mainstream media claims to have recieved from "sources," there's only one set of quotes attributed to a name, that I can see. And that's Deputy Chief Constable Dave Whatton.

Originally posted by Freeborn
I still stand by what I said earlier.
It may be suicide.
It my be murder.
It may be an accident.
There may be a conspiritorial angle to it.

And I still stand by what I said earlier, why bother attacking people for "screaming conspiracy" when all they said was "this may be a conspiracy," exactly as you have. That is all. Can you not understand what I'm trying to say? I'm not going to repeat it again.

Originally posted by Freeborn
I have never once stated that I definately believe any series of events.
There are far too many missing pieces of the jigsaw to do that.
All I have offered have been possible scenario's.

False. On the very first page you wrote, and I quote: "Letters addressed to his family have been found. Seems very suspicious to me. Just go's to show, you can never know what's going on in someone's mind and how finely balanced some of us are."

So, you obviously have beleived at least one series of events, otherwise you would have said "Just 'go's' to show, that this shows nothing." That was a blatant insinuation of suicide, not a "possible scenario," Sir. I can and will show the difference.

Originally posted by Freeborn
No, incorrect.
I stated on 3 seperate occasions that there MAY be a conspiracy angle to it.
Now I know I'm making the dangerous assumption that you understand the difference between "may" and "is".

I meant "stated a conspiracy as a possible scenario," quite clearly. If it was not clear, then I apologise.

Originally posted by Freeborn
Needlessly disagreeing.
Why?
Because I don't think the same as you that is deemed needlessly disagreeing?
Quite the man aren't we.

Must I keep on repeating myself? I meant needlessly disagreeing in so much as the people you were disagreeing with were saying the exact same thing you went on to say. Wouldn't you class a "needless disagreement" as arguing with someone about something they agree with you on?

To be continued

Whatever the cause this is a tragedy and his family deserves our deepest sympathy.

If one wished to murder someone or dispose of a body would one seriously
do it high up a freezing mountain in winter in the middle of the worst gale of the winter . There must surely be easier ways of doing it.


In my mountaineering days I was always told never to climb a British mountain in winter unless one is equipped to spend the night up there as the weather can change suddenly and the environment suddenly becoming
deadly dangerous.


Conspiracy and murder (though admittedly possible) should not be the first thing to spring to mind on reading of a death on Snowdon, there are enough potential causes of death up there already.

Try putting "Death + Snowdon" into Google and you will see what I mean

Originally posted by Freeborn
Member for 2 days.
5 posts.
www.abovetopsecret.com...

Let that serve as an illustration to you that -- just as in the news media -- not everything you read is fact. Not everything in this world is how it appears to be. User account data can be as decieving as any text can.

Originally posted by Freeborn
If there are reasonable grounds to deny the official story, when it is released, then maybe it should be related to Dr Kelly and our involvement in the ME.

O.K.

Originally posted by Freeborn
I really don't understand why all the hostile responses when all I have suggested is wait until the official story is released before starting to pick it to pieces.
I suspect there is much more to be revealed yet and we all may end up having egg on our chin.

Still, wtf, as if I care.
I assure you, I have thich skin, broad shoulders and much more important things to concern myself with.

I apologise for my own hostile responses to you, but I couldn't tolerate any longer your use of "here at ATS," or "on ATS we do it this way." I'm sorry, I try to be very patient, but you repeated it 5 times, like I'm some sort of child. If you're rude to people then don't be surprised if they're rude back.

As I'm also a Buddhist, I'm not supposed to react in this way. But as a man trying to be honest, I'll admit that I'm really not a very good Buddhist (yet). But... As a man trying to be a Buddhist, I now hereby apologise to you for my behaviour on this day, and also thank you for the opportunity of doing so.

I would also like to apologise to the Moderation and fellow posters alike for almost completely de-realing this fine thread, here. It was my fault, and it won't happen again.

Sorry!

reply to post by Yaltabaoth


I assure you there is no need to apologise to me.
But I will accept it in the spirit it has been offered.

Oh, and I am more than aware that not everything is as it seems and how "user account data can be deceiving".
I am sure there is no need for you to say anything more.

I never inteded to be rude to you, maybe I should have been able to read in between the lines a little better and should not have been as condescending.

I really do prefer to debate the subject rather than the person.
As a generalisation I would have to say that too many people here can be a tad sensitive and take any criticism or difference of opinion as personal criticism.

Buddhism, I have neither the self-discipline or inclination for that.

Moderators?
Surely nothing has occured that warranted their intervention?
Nothing discussed has been off thread, has it? (Except this post!).

Back on thread:
I personally have already identified several inconsitencies in the information which has been released, but feel there is still more to be revealed.
I also think there are several possible scenario's as to the cause of death and the circumstances surrounding it.

Police chief Michael Todd sent a series of "worrying" text messages before he was found dead in north Wales. This was no ordinary "Flight" down the Cliff, as he was busy investigating the CIA Rendition Flights of kidnapped 'suspects' without any proof, who were either missing or were flown to other gestapo countries, where torture was a big business.

There are many more ugly crap that will be exposed from this great Neocon Scam, which was organized in chorus with the Pentagon, White House, CIA, and many other brothels.

Dubyakadubla,

Your post implied that Mr. Todd was murdered as a result of him presently investigating the U.S.'s rendition flights and their possible use of British airbases or airports. Am I just reading your post wrong or do you know of some ongoing investigation into this matter? Because I was under the impression that any investigation by Mr. Todd into the rendition flights had been concluded long ago.

In fact, while the UK recently admitted that two of the flights had indeed refueled at a British base at Diego Garcia, (Reuters: UK says U.S. rendition flights used Indian Ocean base) at the time of the investigation, Mr. Todd's panel found no information to that effect.

This is evidenced by an article from the 9th of June, 2007 by the BBC News which quoted Mr. Todd and the Association of Police Chiefs investigative panel as saying,

"Mr Todd has now examined all of the information available relating to this issue and has concluded that there is indeed no evidence to substantiate Liberty's allegations."

"There was no evidence that UK airports were used to transport people by the CIA for torture in other countries."

Police Reject UK Rendition Claims

Thus, unless he had discovered otherwise in recent days and was going to come forth with that information, of which there is no evidence that I am aware of, I see no reason why the CIA or another alphabet agency would desire his death.

Further, while I understand the suspicion with which this case must be viewed, I have yet to see any evidence to suggest it was anything other than a normal suicide.

I would argue rather that, wild speculation aside, unless you discount all of the information that has so far been released, simply because it comes from a mainstream news agency or police sources, it points towards this being a suicide.

I'll still keep an open mind on this because, as has been stated earlier by myself and others, it is way too early to make a conclusive decision, but I am leaning towards there being no conspiracy here.

I do hope the autopsy and toxicology reports help shed some light on the truth of this matter and anxiously await the reporting of their results.

Regards,

-Cypher

edit nvm, will post later

[edit on 13-3-2008 by cleggy88]

Originally posted by Cypher
Dubyakadubla,

Your post implied that Mr. Todd was murdered as a result of him presently investigating the U.S.'s rendition flights and their possible use of British airbases or airports. Am I just reading your post wrong or do you know of some ongoing investigation into this matter? Because I was under the impression that any investigation by Mr. Todd into the rendition flights had been concluded long ago.

In fact, while the UK recently admitted that two of the flights had indeed refueled at a British base at Diego Garcia, (Reuters: UK says U.S. rendition flights used Indian Ocean base) at the time of the investigation, Mr. Todd's panel found no information to that effect.

This is evidenced by an article from the 9th of June, 2007 by the BBC News which quoted Mr. Todd and the Association of Police Chiefs investigative panel as saying,

"Mr Todd has now examined all of the information available relating to this issue and has concluded that there is indeed no evidence to substantiate Liberty's allegations."

"There was no evidence that UK airports were used to transport people by the CIA for torture in other countries."

Police Reject UK Rendition Claims

Did you not read this part of the article?

Mr Yates, who carried out an investigation into rendition flights in 2005, said there was "absolutely no doubt whatsoever" that the planes have visited the UK.

"There's enough evidence in terms of photographs and logs of planes taking off and comparisons of aircraft tail numbers," he said.

"These flights tally with certain activities which took place on certain dates in other countries - the picking up of CIA suspects.

"By any definition the government has given support to the CIA in rendition flights, either by clearance through UK airspace or clearance to use our airports.

"The question as to whether any of the rendition passengers were on the planes or whether they were normal CIA flights, which do visit this country, we will never know. It's all smoke and mirrors."

Liberal Democrat foreign affairs spokesman Michael Moore said that the inquiry does not "let the government off the hook".

He said: "The government has persistently failed to ask the of the US authorities and so it is hardly a surprise that there's little new material on which the police can comment."

Doesn't appear to me to be as cut and dried as you imply.

From what I have read, Todd appears to have been a man respected by his peers and of great professional integrity. I doubt that knowing he was investigating in a strait jacket would not have sat well with him.

[edit on 13-3-2008 by KilgoreTrout]

Kilgoretrout,

Of course I read the whole article, I posted it.

I still fail to see your point though. The quotes you included from aviation expert, Chris Yates, have no bearing on my assertion that Mr. Todd's involvement in the investigation had ended long ago.

I posted the article in question strictly to show that my understanding was; By all known evidence Mr. Todd's involvement in the original ACPO investigation had been concluded back in 2007. I never claimed that the panel's findings were conclusive. Rather, to the contrary I posted a link that showed in at least two cases they were wrong and no where in my post did I imply that the investigation itself wasn't done in a politically charged atmosphere.

I was simply arguing that Dubyakadubla's conclusive assertion that Mr. Todd had indeed been murdered because of his investigation into the rendition flights was lacking given that the evidence we have at this time shows Mr. Todd was no longer investigating the flights.

I would like to note as well, that I had even openly asked if I was wrong and there was information to the contrary; evidence that would show Mr. Todd was still investigating the flights.

My contention was, and still is, that unless Mr. Todd was still investigating U.S. rendition flights at the time of his death there would have been no motive for the CIA or another government agency to murder him. After all, whether it was true or not, he and the panel he was on specifically stated that they had found no evidence to support the claims that the U.K. government had allowed U.S. rendition flights, which contained detainees, to use UK airports or airbases. Thus why would the U.S. government, the U.K. government, or the NWO have any issue with Mr. Todd's work on the issue?

-Cypher

Police Chief's Secret Mistress Named

Police chief Michael Todd was having an affair with the chief executive of Manchester Chamber of Commerce and Industry before apparently committing suicide.

Sky sources have confirmed that Angie Robinson had been in an 18-month relationship with the Chief Constable of Greater Manchester.

[...]

A toxicology report is expected to be completed this morning, and an inquest into the 50-year-old's death opens at this afternoon at Anglesey Council Chamber.

The pathologist Dr Anthony Caslin will then discuss his preliminary findings.

Both that article and this one, both from today, still claim that "no obvious cause of death" was found in the Coroner's post-mortem examination.

I guess we'll have to wait a couple of hours for the pathologist's preliminary statements at the inquest.

Something still smells about this. What kind of an absolute Pussy would kill himself because he was having an affair? It's not like he was even living with his wife anyway. There's got to be something more.

Reuters U.K.

LONDON (Reuters) - An inquest into the death of police chief Michael Todd is due to open on Thursday.

The coroner has taken the unusual step of calling for a preliminary pathologist's report because of the amount of publicity surrounding the death of the Greater Manchester Police chief constable.

The 50-year-old father of three had spoken to colleagues about problems in his personal life in the days before his death, according to media reports.

But police denied reports that suicide notes had been found near the body.

According to Reuters Police are now denying that suicide notes were located near Todd's body, contrary to earlier rumours.

The coroner finds no obvious cause of death in the post-mortem, then takes the "unusual step of calling for a preliminary pathologist's report because of the amount of publicity surrounding the death?"

I am unfamiliar with proceedure in these regards, so this may be nothing out of the ordinary; but doesn't that sound strange to anyone else?

Cypher?

reply to post by Cypher


My apologies, however, I think that the opportunity that we have here is to second guess the investigation and look for any suggestion of motive or cover-up. If for no other reason than why not?

Why would he commit suicide? I think it is valid that he may have, privately or behind the scenes perhaps continued to question the basis of this investigation into CIA flights. We don't know the man certainly, it may be possible that he was driven to a breakdown by this extra-marital affair, is it likely though?

The information I posted earlier in the thread, and how i find this case similar to that of Dr Richard Stevens still prevails. Similarly, Stevens was said to have committed suicide because of his guilt over and affair. This Doctor, a blood specialist and campaigner against tainted blood products, dealt with life and death daily, but was evidently driven to suicide by his guilt about an affair.

Sure people commit suicide everyday, but more often than not there is a clear and present 'why', there are warning signs. I see none of that here, and I actually hope that I am wrong, I hope he did commit suicide or have an accident. I would much rather that than contemplate the implications otherwise. However my gut instinct is telling me that this is another too many and I therefore find myself more readily looking for the reason why someone may have wanted him dead.

This may not be related but it seems that the pathologist, Dr Caslin, did the post mortem on another climber who died on a mountain in the same area: archive.thisisworcestershire.co.uk...

Also, again I don't know if this is relevant, but when I did a little search on Dr Caslin, it appears that his area of specialist interest is "breast pathology"! (see www.northwestwales.org...)

Mmmmmm, stranger and stranger, especially considering the two other top police officers who passed away within a short time of this one's death. Curioser and curioser.

for some reason i cant stop thinking this has alot to do with big drug deals and all that cocain washed up on the beaches along the entire west coast lol dont ask why just was a instictive reaction, theres a few dodgy coppers out there,

reply to post by LovingSoul


I think that it's fair to suggest that he is the pathologist at Bangor which is right near Snowdonia. While I do think it stinks to high hell - I think that that is just to do with the area. Had it been the Brecon Beacons, I'm pretty sure it would have been a pahtologist local to there. North Wales is quite rural so it would make sense that it's the smae guy doing the examination of the bodies.

As for coke deals...interesting idea. I will have to ponder that more.

Could be that they did not agree to be being microchipped or maybe they had and it was a foretaste of the 'Big brother state' and it was an experiment on how
to mind control.
www.dailymail.co.uk...