IsaacKoi this thread gets a star and a flag from me.
In fact, I know I'm not on the moderating staff here, but if suggestions help I'd like to nominate this thread for a Sticky.
As always Isaac, you fully research a subject, even when it's merely the interaction between believers and skeptics. Very well written, I couldn't
have said it better myself.
Personally, I'm on the 'UFO Proponent' side of the fence. This is due to personal sightings, 3 of them that cannot be explained by anything other
Many on the UFO Proponent Side (a MUCH better [less derogatory] term than 'Believers') have actually had experiences that cannot be explained. This
speaks to why the debunking of cases we are not a witnessing party to does nothing to debunk our own personal cases where we were eyewitnesses.
Also, many on the Proponent side (I feel this category fits my thoughts also) think about space on a philosophical level. Some skeptics think this
way also, applying science and thought experiments (the Drake Equation for example) to make at best intelligent guesses at what COULD be out there.
Everything we have learned about Space suggests that there is other life out there somewhere. Physically we have not yet even explored 1 single
planet (I'm counting people here, not robots) other than Earth, and we've just barely made scouting trips to our own Moon.
But we find everything needed for life here on Earth in other places in space in abundance. We find other worlds with Atmospheres of their own. We
find water in all forms (solid, liquid, ice), we find heavy metals, we find starlight, in essence everything life needs is distributed throughout the
observable universe. Knowing all of these things are out there, and knowing the approximate age of the first stable systems (solar systems) in the
universe, rational humans should be able to clearly see the potential for intelligent life among the stars.
Earth is not hidden in some invisible pocket of space. It exists at a certain set of coordinates in the universe at all times, even though it's all
in motion. The Earth can be thought of as a point on the map of the universe, just as Mars or the Sun. It is a place that can be travelled to, given
These arguments are hard to ignore once realized. It's like asking Galileo to forget what he saw in the telescope, and to just let his skepticism
over-ride his observations. Everyone here should know that Galileo was a Catholic. His own natural religious skepticism was surely in place before
witnessing data to the contrary. Once he made his observations though, he KNEW the world was not the center of the Universe.
I think that also provides a good summary of why debunking an unrelated case does not tend to change the UFO Proponent's mind as to the entire
On a separate track, and the reason I commented on this thread...
I am one of the few UFO Proponents (that I've met so far) that will FULLY 100% agree with the Skeptics who are demanding 1 good solid case (or 10,
but a small number of good ones) for in-depth study.
In fact, it's the entire reason that I'm here at ATS at all.
When I first came to this site, just last December, I came here as an outsider, unaware of the millions of cases ATS has examined in it's extensive
history. I'd read the site a few times when I was bored, and had read other sources mainly for my UFO information and the cases I've studied
privately. I came having several sightings of craft personally, and looking for evidence to argue my case to others rationally.
You are right, even mentioning the issue makes people think you are nuts.
I'm not nuts.
I quickly learned to use the Search function here at ATS, and for the sake of other newcomers (in addition to my own research needs) I created a
thread called Compilation: The Evidence for EBEs, here:
I found a lot of the 'crap' mentioned in your above posts, and YES I think those cases WERE worth investigating. The vast majority of these cases
have been debunked, and the links to the threads concerning each case are posted at the end of each report in the Compilation. My findings in the ATS
archives illustrate well what your above listed researchers concluded. There are a lot of explainable cases.
When it got to a point where I felt the thread was well established as a reference source, I moved on to explore the evidence for Alien Technology,
This search yielded little data, and if anyone has further cases to add to that or the EBE Evidence lists I'd love to see it.
From this search, I moved into my third area of questioning, the Evidence for Spaceships. Upon beginning my search for data for this thread, I found
myself engaged in a debate on just this very topic (Skeptic demanding 1 solid UFO case) in a thread by ATS member Question, here:
The title of that thread was, 'What Proof Will Satisfy You?'
The debate I'm referencing happens mostly on pages 2 and 3 of the thread, and takes place between myself and Yeti101.
I suggested the Battle of Los Angeles as a solid case, and Yeti101 played the role of the skeptic.
That debate in my view was never resolved, and for my own clarity on the case, I began anew my investigation into the Battle of LA, as data for the
first report in my planned Compilation: The Evidence For SpaceShips thread.
My search for data yielded huge quantities of information on the event. And ever since I've been trying to dig through it. Very few of the ATS
Skeptic members have cared to join us. One of those, Nohup, has re-visited the case several times, and for that I express my thanks. There are a few
of us on the Proponent side who are there doing the work.
To date, all of the information on this case has yet to be assembled, anywhere, and ATS has the opportunity to achieve this for the first time,
I'd like to state this case as 1 solid case we can all research, where tons of data is available. I sincerely hope that the Skeptics who demand such
a source cited will read this thread, and come help us investigate.
Together, Skeptics and Proponents are strong.
The thread on the Battle is here: