Is holography currently available for use and misuse?

Originally posted by OrionStars
Can you touch other 3-D physical matter, such as your own body parts? Can you measure those body parts if necessary? If you have ever been able to do at least that much touching or measuring, you just answered your own question, and realized your own conclusion is wrong.

That's what i said.

You can touch an object and measure it's dimensions, with a certain man made object. But you can not measure or touch a dimension.

You can also look at something change through time and measure that time, using another man made object.


Your argument was that you "can't touch, smell, etc.. time, so it's not the same as other dimensions".

All i said was, that you can not do these things with the first three dimensions either. And that you can measure all four of them with man made tools.

So what conclusion of mine is wrong?

Originally posted by deezee

That's what i said.

You can touch an object and measure it's dimensions, with a certain man made object. But you can not measure or touch a dimension.

Physical matter of length, width, and depth are physical dimensions of a physical object, and quite capable of being physically measured.

Hypothetical and theorectical dimensions are not capable of being physically measured, because they are abstract concepts not physical concepts.

The word dimension has more than one denotation and connotation.

There Was Sophisticated Hologram Technology in 2001

5.6 Airborne Holographic Projector

Brief Description

The holographic projector displays a three-dimensional visual image in a desired location, removed from the display generator. The projector can be used for psychological operations and strategic perception management. It is also useful for optical deception and cloaking, providing a momentary distraction when engaging an unsophisticated adversary.

web.archive.org...://www.au.af.mil/au/2025/volume4/chap03/img00098.gif

Capabilities

* Precision projection of 3-D visual images into a selected area
* Supports PSYOP and strategic deception management
* Provides deception and cloaking against optical sensors

Enabling Technologies (MCTL)

* 4.1.4, Image Processing (holographic displays)
* 10.1, Lasers
* 10.2, Optics
* 10.3, Power Systems

White Papers

* Q, Special & Humanitarian Operations
* N, Strategic Attack

web.archive.org...:/www.au.af.mil/au/2025/volume4/chap03/b5_6.htm

The Gulf War hologram story might be dismissed were it not the case that washingtonpost.com has learned that a super secret program was established in 1994 to pursue the very technology for PSYOPS application. The "Holographic Projector" is described in a classified Air Force document as a system to "project information power from space ... for special operations deception missions."

Originally posted by deezee

All i said was, that you can not do these things with the first three dimensions either. And that you can measure all four of them with man made tools.

So what conclusion of mine is wrong?

I forgot to ask. Exactly what four dimensions do you plan on physically measuring? We live an abstract 3-D not abstract 4-D world in the context you have chosen to use the word dimension.

reply to post by LordCarpainter


Thank you very much. That projection is incredible.

reply to post by LordCarpainter


Thanks for the post. The info about this program was posted some time back on this thread. This is part of the Airforces 2025 Futuretech proposal program. The described holographic projector system doesn't actually exist, it was just a proposal.

Originally posted by OrionStars
I forgot to ask. Exactly what four dimensions do you plan on physically measuring? We live an abstract 3-D not abstract 4-D world in the context you have chosen to use the word dimension.

It's about time, remember? You said you cant touch it or smell it....


I was comparing this to the fact, that for measuring the dimensions of an object, you need a man made tool, just like for measuring time, which is sometimes called the fourth dimension.

That's what i was talking about. You can not touch or smell dimensions, nor time (which is sometimes called the fourth), because they are not something, they are just properties of something. (And BTW, i know all the meanings of the word dimension, and also all the misunderstandings of the meaning, that are so often used. But that was not the point.)


BTW: I physically measure time all the time. (This came out funny ) Sometimes electronic devices need to have an exact time reference. I use a man made physical object to do this, and it is called a crystal oscilator. When excited, it oscilates at a very specific frequency. From that, the device can "know" what time it is, or create any other lower frequency, within certain limits, depending on the original oscilators frequency.

[edit on 11/2/08 by deezee]

Originally posted by deezee

It's about time, remember? You said you cant touch it or smell it....

I was comparing this to the fact, that for measuring the dimensions of an object, you need a man made tool, just like for measuring time, which is sometimes called the fourth dimension.

As I have already explained to you, dimensions come in two forms. Abstact form which cannot be physically measured without acting on physical matter, and physical dimension of a physical object. Physically measuring the size, of a physcial object, is its dimensions. On earth, physical objects come in 1 (length), 2 (length and width) and 3 (length, width, and depth) dimensions and no other.

Time and space are abstract concepts humans desired to physically capture but never actually could. They can only capture abstract concepts, of time and space, by word definition and nothing more. As I previously stated, humans are the only members of the animal kingdom having attempted to capture abstract concepts of time and space, by word definitions and nothing more.

Time and space are classified under quantum mechanics not physical matter. For a further understanding of the difference, I highly recommend the following book by Walter Isaacson - Einstein His Life and Universe. Although, it does help if one has at least some basic understanding, in the study of physics and quantum mechanics, before one reads Einstein's own words in the biography.

Originally posted by OrionStars
As I have already explained to you, dimensions come in two forms. Abstact form which cannot be physically measured without acting on physical matter, and physical dimension of a physical object.

And as i already explained to you, i know about all the meanings of the word dimension, together with all the misconceptions about it.

Originally posted by OrionStars
Time and space are abstract concepts humans desired to physically capture but never actually could. They can only capture abstract concepts, of time and space, by word definition and nothing more. As I previously stated, humans are the only members of the animal kingdom having attempted to capture abstract concepts of time and space, by word definitions and nothing more.

And this is exactly what i meant, when i said, that for measuring dimensions you need a tool, that was created by, and given meaning to, by us humans.

Originally posted by OrionStars
Time and space are classified under quantum mechanics not physical matter.

Where did i say this? Besides, what are you arguing against anyway?

The ONLY thing i said AT ALL was, comparing the fact of us not being able to "touch" time, to the fact, that we can neither touch the other dimensions.

Do you understand what i'm saying now?


If i remember correctly, it started, when you said, that "time is a theoretical concept", jfj saying "it's not", and you saying, that "we can not touch,.... time", so it's not comparable to dimensions.


Again, all i said was, that we can neither touch the "first" three dimensions, so it is comparable.

So if you want to argue about something, argue about this, instead of posting definitions of dimensions. Because that was not the point.


In fact, in some of the theories you mentioned, time is considered as the fourth dimension.
On the other hand, in some quantum theories, time can not exist, for the calculations to work. So it is a very interesting and fascinating subject.

Originally posted by deezee

And this is exactly what i meant, when i said, that for measuring dimensions you need a tool, that was created by, and given meaning to, by us humans.

Originally posted by OrionStars
Time and space are classified under quantum mechanics not physical matter.

Where did i say this? Besides, what are you arguing against anyway?

You did not. I did when briefly explaining it to you that your conclusion was wrong.

Originally posted by OrionStars
You did not. I did when briefly explaining it to you that your conclusion was wrong.

Yeah, but see, the problem is, i don't know which conclusion you are even talking about.

Is it the one, that time is sometimes considered a dimension? The comparison between time and the usual three dimensions? Or what? I seriously don't know what you are trying to say anymore..

Originally posted by deezee

Originally posted by OrionStars
You did not. I did when briefly explaining it to you that your conclusion was wrong.

Yeah, but see, the problem is, i don't know which conclusion you are even talking about.

Is it the one, that time is sometimes considered a dimension? The comparison between time and the usual three dimensions? Or what? I seriously don't know what you are trying to say anymore..

Then all I can respectfully suggest is you re-read all your own posts, in this discussion, directly related to the word dimension.

Time is not a dimension. It is a concept existing only in the abstract thought regions of the biological human brain. Abstractly measured time, by humans, can just as easily be conceptualized as two hour rotations of the earth or 10 month year orbiting.

It is all in what people became accustomed as more was learned in the area of quantum mechanics. You appear to have a concrete abstract conception of time being something physically measurable, when it is not and never has been.

Others do not, and Einstein was only one human not having a concrete abstract conception, of the human devised word time. There are many more agreeing with Einstein's theoretical concepts of abstract human devised word time. Einstein was obsessed with time travel being feasible.

Originally posted by OrionStars
Originally posted by deezee

As I have already explained to you, dimensions come in two forms. Abstact form which cannot be physically measured without acting on physical matter, and physical dimension of a physical object. Physically measuring the size, of a physcial object, is its dimensions. On earth, physical objects come in 1 (length), 2 (length and width) and 3 (length, width, and depth) dimensions and no other.

How do you measure a dimension such as length, width or depth? Thanks.


[edit on 11-2-2008 by jfj123]

Originally posted by jfj123

How do you measure a dimension such as length, width or depth? Thanks.
[edit on 11-2-2008 by jfj123]

Since I cannot physically demonstrate how to do that in this discussion, I have to ask this question of you. Have you taken the classes of geometry and trigonometry? If so, then you have answered your own question as to how. You would also know the physical tools used normally consist of these 3-D objects - ruler, protractor, compass, paper, pencil or pen, and eraser or white out in case human error.

Now I have a question for you. How does anything concerning dimensions relevantly relate to holography possibility or impossibility? Holography is the topic of this discussion.

Originally posted by OrionStars

Originally posted by jfj123

How do you measure a dimension such as length, width or depth? Thanks.
[edit on 11-2-2008 by jfj123]

Since I cannot physically demonstrate how to do that in this discussion, I have to ask this question of you. Have you taken the classes of geometry and trigonometry? If so, then you have answered your own question as to how. You would also know the physical tools used normally consist of these 3-D objects - ruler, protractor, compass, paper, pencil or pen, and eraser or white out in case human error.

So you are using human created tools to measure human created distance to understand a human created perception of the distance.
We can also measure time with human created tools.
That was my only point from previous posts.
As to what classes I've taken, geometry, trig, calc, advanced analytic calc, and 4 advanced physics courses.

Now I have a question for you. How does anything concerning dimensions relevantly relate to holography possibility or impossibility? Holography is the topic of this discussion.

This is a very good question. Thank you for asking this. One of the previous posters had claimed that a hologram was projected from the fourth dimension and that is how the hologram looked so real. The standard in physical sciences is that the accepted fourth dimension is time so I was wondering how it was projected from time.

Here are a few posts regarding the fourth dimension.
Here's a definition of the superstring theory

Our physical space is observed to have only three large dimensions — and taken together with time as the fourth dimension — a physical theory must take this into account

en.wikipedia.org...

Here's a bit more info

There are three conventional spatial dimensions: length (or depth), width, and height, often expressed as 'x', 'y' and 'z'. 'x' and 'y' axes appear on a plane Cartesian graph. In the 3rd dimension, a 'z' is used and is found in functions such as a "z-buffer" in computer graphics, for processing "depth" in imagery. The fourth dimension is often identified with time in physics, and as such is used to explain the non-Euclidean space-time used in Einstein's theories of special relativity and general relativity.

en.wikipedia.org...

I do also realize that some types of mathematics imply the 4th dimension as only spacial as opposed to spacial/temporal and call time the 0th dimension.

Originally posted by jfj123

So you are using human created tools to measure human created distance to understand a human created perception of the distance.
We can also measure time with human created tools.
That was my only point from previous posts.
As to what classes I've taken, geometry, trig, calc, advanced analytic calc, and 4 advanced physics courses.

Are you saying using physical tools, in order to measure physical objects, can be an illusion not a realtiy? If so, you have taken this discussion into philosophy, which has nothing to do with the topic.

Time is not a physical object. It is a abstract perception conceived in the human brain. How many more times does that have to be pointed out? If you do not believe it, research it yourself on an academic or professional science site or in a qualified science book.

If you took those courses, why did you ask me the question to which you already knew the answer?

Please forget the fourth dimension. It has nothing to do with this topic. Fourth dimension discussion belongs on a philosophy forum discussion site, not this forum. It is obvious some posters do not understand the abstract concept of hypothetical, lacking in physical substance matter, fourth dimension. If I want hypotheses and theories on the fourth dimension, I can easily access that on reruns of the "Twilight Zone".

Originally posted by OrionStars

Originally posted by jfj123

So you are using human created tools to measure human created distance to understand a human created perception of the distance.
We can also measure time with human created tools.
That was my only point from previous posts.
As to what classes I've taken, geometry, trig, calc, advanced analytic calc, and 4 advanced physics courses.

Are you saying using physical tools, in order to measure physical objects, can be an illusion not a realtiy? If so, you have taken this discussion into philosophy, which has nothing to do with the topic.

You can measure a box which is physical or the distance between 2 points and although the points themselves are physical, the distance may not be. So for example, you could measure the distance between 2 flying airplanes or the distance between 2 stars.

Time is not a physical object. It is a abstract perception conceived in the human brain.

As is distance. For example, we chose to decide what the distance of one inch is or one centimeter, etc.

Please forget the fourth dimension. It has nothing to do with this topic.

Again, I was responding to someone who thought it did and his impression of reality allowed him to believe it had something to do with the topic. So just to be clear, I didn't start the 4th dimension posts, another person did, then you responded to that person then it went from there.

Fourth dimension discussion belongs on a philosophy forum discussion site, not this forum. It is obvious some posters do not understand the abstract concept of hypothetical, lacking in physical substance matter, fourth dimension. If I want hypotheses and theories on the fourth dimension, I can easily access that on reruns of the "Twilight Zone".

Yes time is completely hypothetical, we have no way of measuring it like we can measure distance with a ruler. I should patent a new device for measuring and standardizing a hypothetical temporal unit of measure !!! I will call it THE CLOCK !!! It's no ANTI-LIGHT invention but I bet it could come in handy for some stuff one day.

[edit on 11-2-2008 by jfj123]

Just to help us get back on topic, does anyone have any evidence that holograms can be used in the required manor which could create the planes as seen on 9/11??

We know holograms exist in a limited manor.

We know that some things that have been called holograms, really are not holograms but are a modification or evolution of the Pepper's Ghost trick.

We know that physical limitations of holograms (ie require a medium for projection, controlled environment, dark conditions, etc. )

Originally posted by jfj123
Just to help us get back on topic, does anyone have any evidence that holograms can be used in the required manor which could create the planes as seen on 9/11??

We know holograms exist in a limited manor.

Again, the topic only dealt with the possibly based on known technology, and highly potential unknown sophisticated technology involving DOD and Pentagon secret projects. Known technology has repeatedly been posted to this discussion. No other proof was required as to possiblity. The topic is possibility not demanded proof. I stated that from the very beginning and periodically throughout the entire discussion.

Why keep demanding more proof, simply to reject it out-of-hand, as well, as use that as a lame excuse to go off on tangents unrelated to the topic?

Originally posted by OrionStars

Originally posted by jfj123
Just to help us get back on topic, does anyone have any evidence that holograms can be used in the required manor which could create the planes as seen on 9/11??

We know holograms exist in a limited manor.

Again, the topic only dealt with the possibly based on known technology

Which we have discussed and have determined that this is not possible.

, and highly potential unknown sophisticated technology involving DOD and Pentagon secret projects.

Which nobody has posted any info about and since we have no info, we can only speculate based on all available information about holograms, lasers, optics, etc. and have determined that this is not possible.

Known technology has repeatedly been posted to this discussion.

Yes which once again shows that holograms of the needed sophistication are not possible.

No other proof was required as to possiblity. The topic is possibility not demanded proof. I stated that from the very beginning and periodically throughout the entire discussion.

Well since we don't need to post evidence of any kind, do we just get to make stuff up?

Why keep demanding more proof, simply to reject it out-of-hand

There has been nothing to reject as no evidence, let alone proof, has ever been posted which might support the holo-plane idea. Once again, I would love to see evidence to suggest that this were true because I think it would be awesome for us to have that kind of tech !!!!

, as well, as use that as a lame excuse to go off on tangents unrelated to the topic?

Again, I didn't start the supposed tangent. Please review previous posts so you can determine this for yourself as obviously you do not believe me.

So what is left in this discussion? What is left to say? Do we just ask someone to close the thread and call it good?

[edit on 11-2-2008 by jfj123]