Honor Killings.

It is indeed a large gap in the numbers, but the point is, there was a huge Native population in North American prior to contact with Europeans.

With regard to Smallpox, after it made it's way into North America some regions lost over 90% of their original native population. The population of all the Americas was at least 40 million. With the transfer of other pathogens, including smallpox, that population was lowered to just a few million. That lead to easy conquest of the America's by Europeans settlers, for one.

Inadvertant slaughter. But slaughter nonetheless.

It doesn't matter if they killled indians or these people now murder human beings on honor, evil is evil, evil existed since the earth began nd it
is a true force, a scary force.


" Honor "

honor means revenge, but God preached against revenge when he told everybody to love even your enemies and pray for those who hate you.


basically people who kill for honor are hypocrites and are evil. They hhave broken Godscommands for their honor, and doing this they have (dis)honored him.



Its llike you guys said, its a barbaric society over in muslim countries.


peace.

(Reply to the first post in the thread)
Yes, indeed this is a sad and foolish element within Islam, and a thing which raises much hostility towards that particular religion. Wonder what will happen when the women take over in a couple of decades. Hope they have mercy for their earlier oppressors.........

However, I do believe that their family system is by far better than ours, but if we all could land somewhere between. Like equality for the sexes, and still being able to stick together and observe the facts that womankind and mankind have differencies. There are things we men are better at than women and the other way around. But to kill because of it?

Women are for instance better politicans than us men. They have an extremely good ability to think about many things at the same time, and to a gift of God when it comes to organisation. If they say that woman should rule the house, then they must complete that idea. A government is a house.

Blessings,
Mikromarius

[Edited on 10-2-2004 by Hamilton]

I usually stay out of the religion section - but this time I can't.
Honor killings are primitve and caveman-ish at best and a black mark against the particular faith that teaches it.
Buddhism does not teach anything of the kind, in fact it teaches against pride & desire which equates to this paticular interpretation of honor.
Christianity too teaches against this kind of behavior - for all the wrongs people who were Christian have done in the name of the religion, the religion itself teaches against such behavior.

What I also find of great concern although not taught by the Koran but is a tradition or custom of many of that faith, is Female Genital Mutilation - where they take a young girl and cut out her clitoris so she won't enjoy sex and thereby "save" her from being a harlot.

I personally would much rather be a harlot bound for muslim hell than a chaste woman of islam with my clitoris hacked out...

Go ahead, flame away -
deflect blame to other religions or call me a bigot -
i really don't care, but what i do care about is the lives lost to honor killing and the lives degraded through female genital mutilation by this primitive faith.









[Edited on 10-2-2004 by intelgurl]

What I also find of great concern although not taught by the Koran but is a tradition or custom of many of that faith, is Female Genital Mutilation - where they take a young girl and cut out her clitoris so she won't enjoy sex and thereby "save" her from being a harlot.

I am a guy and I always thought this was stupid.

Some of my best friends are harlots

It is pathtic

Look, I'm sorry, and this may seem a little cold, but just let natural selection take place.

It's obvious that the principles practiced by this society have no real concept of reality with regard to survival of species. I don't know if it has to do with thier religion or if its some gene mutation or what, but there are several things that they do there in the middle east and Asian subcontinent that just simply defy logic.

Beating, killing, female castration. All with even less 'good' purpose than why other societies' causes.

I watched a show on the Learning Channel this morning about Afghani children who have sought refuge in Pakistan since the American invasion. This 11 year old kid actually believed that God was going to send him to hell because he saw female skin (they aren't required to wear the bhurka in Pakistan).

Just the policy against women doing anything at all in some of these belief systems is rediculous. I mean, think of the squandered human resources. These women could be teachers, doctors, nurses, or whatever, but the old men won't even let them get an education, let alone walk the streets without an escort.

I nominate any group of people who think that way for the Darwin award.

basically people who kill for honor are hypocrites and are evil. They hhave broken Godscommands for their honor, and doing this they have (dis)honored him.



Its llike you guys said, its a barbaric society over in muslim countries.

Truth, They preach Islam, your Commandments do not Adhere to them

The Koran States that women have just an much equal rights as men, Lets get this over with first.

If anyone would like more insight on the the issue of sexuality in Islam. Also note, Im not too sure regarding the Bias.

www.mwlusa.org...

Sex and Sexuality in Islam

Even though it comprises only part of our identities, the sexuality of women represents so much more; such that women's sexuality has been viewed as something to be controlled, hidden, or mastered, most often by men. Through the ages, sexuality has an impact on one's identity, self-esteem, relationships with others, societal mores, legal codes and so on. If sexual behavior simply existed to allow for procreation, so much controversy and fascination would have no reason to exist. Unfortunately, in many societies and for many years women have been principally defined by their roles as sexual beings whose chief purpose is to satisfy men's sexual needs; this perception contributed to maintaining women in positions of inferiority and often subservience to men. Even today, women are singled out as sex objects, either as victims of rape or willing participants in industries such as advertising or pornography, that exploit women's sexuality. The purpose of this chapter is to explore important issues of sexuality from an Islamic point of view in an effort to expose demeaning cultural habits which have no basis in Islam, and to offer alternative understandings of these issues based on the primary sources of Qur'an and Hadith.

Deep

Absolute archaic beliefs are still so widespread in the middle-east it's sickening. People can blame the Christians for this mis-deed and that mis-deed, but it is nothing on the scale of what is happening in the Islamic world today. Name one Christian country where women need to be covered? Name one Christian country where women need to walk behind men? Name one Christian country where honor-killing is nothing short of legal? Name one Christian country where women are sexually mutilated by law? Name one Christian country where the sentence for being Jewish is death? Name one Christian country where people are stoned to death for adultery? Name one Christian country that officially preaches hatred of the Jews and Americans? Name one Christian country where masked men march up and down the street toting AK-47's and chanting,"Jesus is Great!" Name one Christian country where women and men are seperated in public by law? Name one Christian country where people have their hands lopped off for theft? Tell me why the peaceful Muslims put a death sentence on Salman Rushdie, for writing, "The Satanic Verses"?

And you know what the real catcher is?

I'm not even a Christian, and I can see the mentality of the Muslims. But, oh no, they are a peaceful religion, just misunderstood. Oh yeah? Name one peaceful Muslim country? Name one Muslim country on visible peaceful terms with America and Israel. Name one Muslim country that does not advocate the murder of Americans and Jews. Name one Muslim country where being Jewish is legal and tolerated?

Doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure this out.

Absolute archaic beliefs are still so widespread in the middle-east it's sickening. People can blame the Christians for this mis-deed and that mis-deed, but it is nothing on the scale of what is happening in the Islamic world today. Name one Christian country where women need to be covered? Name one Christian country where women need to walk behind men? Name one Christian country where honor-killing is nothing short of legal? Name one Christian country where women are sexually mutilated by law? Name one Christian country where the sentence for being Jewish is death? Name one Christian country where people are stoned to death for adultery? Name one Christian country that officially preaches hatred of the Jews and Americans? Name one Christian country where masked men march up and down the street toting AK-47's and chanting,"Jesus is Great!" Name one Christian country where women and men are seperated in public by law? Name one Christian country where people have their hands lopped off for theft? Tell me why the peaceful Muslims put a death sentence on Salman Rushdie, for writing, "The Satanic Verses"?

Nathraq, what you are stating is the social aspects of society int he middle east. Islamic ruled countries instate " Sharia Law ".

answering-islam.org.uk...
www.guardian.co.uk...

en.wikipedia.org...

Sharia or Shariah is the body of religious law governing the cultural life of Islam, both in its Sunni and Shia branches. Islam draws no distinction between religious and secular life, and hence Sharia covers not only religious rituals and the administration of the faith, but every aspect of day-to-day life. There are no modern parallels to this concept, but the caesaropapism of the Byzantine empire, in which religious and secular life were blended into one, and law ultimately derived from the written word of God was embodied in the ruler, may bear some useful parallels for the historian, in spite of the many obvious differences.

Name one Christian country where masked men march up and down the street toting AK-47's and chanting,"Jesus is Great!"

AMERICA! I hope you were being sarcastic here.

Deep

Originally posted by ZeroDeep
The Koran States that women have just an much equal rights as men, Lets get this over with first.

In the Koran there are four so called neutral verses where women are considered equal to men (at least not demeaning towards women); to which apologists for Islam refer us repeatedly. Here are those:

3: 195 "Their Lord responded to the: "I never fail to reward any worker among you for any work you do, be you male or female, you are equal to one another�."

4: 124 "As for those who lead a righteous life, male or female. While believing, they enter paradise; without the slightest injustice"

16: 97 "Anyone who works righteousness, male or female, while believing, we will surely grant them a happy life in this world, and we will surely pay them their full recompense for their righteous works."

40: 40 "Whoever commits a sin is required for just that, and whoever works righteousness - male or female - while believing, these will enter paradise wherein they receive provision without any limits."

In opposition to above four so-called neutral verses, there are hundreds of versed that deliberately defame and dehumanise women:

An-Nisa 4: 34 "As to those women On whose part ye fear disloyalty and ill -conduct, admonish them (first), (next) refuse to share beds, (and Last) beat them (lightly); but if they return to obedience, seek not against them means (of annoyance): For God is Most High, Great (above you all)"

Al - Baqara 2: 223 "Your women are a tilt for you (to cultivate) so go to your tilt as ye will, and send (good deeds) before you for your souls, and fear Allah, and know that ye will (one day) meet Him. Give glad tidings to believers, (o Mohammad)"

Al - Baqara 2: 222 "They questioned thee (O Mohammad) concerning menstruation, Say it is an illness, so let women alone at such times and go not unto them till they are cleansed."

Al - Baqara 2: 228 "Men, your wives are your tillage. Go into your tillage any way you want."

"Women have such honourable rights as obligations, but men have a (single) degree above them."

"Men are managers of the affairs of women because Allah has preferred men over women and women were expended of their rights."


etc... blah blah blah....


Needless to say, the Koran's words for and about women are at best, less than flattering... small wonder that genital mutilation is acceptable in custom and culture what with passages encouraging the beating of a wife...

[Edited on 10-2-2004 by intelgurl]

Hello all,

I would like to say that i am a follower of Islam, and so i follow the Quran and the Quran only.
I know alot of muslims that follow Hadiths and Sunnah's but i try to tell them that Quran is all you need, and like any disbeliever its like poison to there ears.
So i have came up with my own way of spreading Islam, i must first spread it to Muslims before i start to talk about it with others.
I have learnt alot about people through Islam, espesially Muslims themselves.
And i have notice that most of them are quick at saying "Fight In the name of Allah" and yet most of them drink and go to clubs and abuse women and some of them cant even wake up for morning prayer and the worst is when they dont even read or have never read one verse of the Knoble Quran!!
So before any Muslim goes around telling people what they can and cant do they should look at themselves first.
I know in the past i have attacked Christians, but that was out of angre because i felt betrayed by the religion i once used to follow!!
But now i will tell you how Islam Views Women, Not how Muslims View women.

"O ye who believe! Ye are forbidden to inherit women against their will. Nor should ye treat them with harshness, that ye may take away part of the dower [money given by the husband to the wife for the marriage contract] ye have given them, except where they have been guilty of open lewdness; on the contrary live with them on a footing of kindness and equity. If ye take a dislike to them it may be that ye dislike a thing, and God brings about through it a great deal of good. (The Noble Quran, 4:19)"

"And among God's signs is this: He created for you mates from amongst yourselves (males as mates for females and vice versa) that you might find tranquillity and peace in them. And he has put love and kindness among you. Herein surely are signs for those who reflect. (The Noble Quran, 30:21)"

"When news is brought to one of them, of (the birth of) a female (child), his face darkens, and he is filled with inward grief! With shame does he hide himself from his people, Because of the bad news He has had! Shall he retain it On (sufferance and) contempt, Or bury it in the dust? Ah! what an evil (choice) They decide on? (The Noble Quran, 16:58-59)"

This last Verse i have presented (16:58-59) is a reflection of how Arabs used to be with there female chiledren, do you think that maybe there traditions may have stuck with them all this time??
I think so!
I know for a fact that most Muslims Learn Islam through there perants and so they pass down traditions aswell as Religion along with it.

One thing that hurts me alot is seeing girls trying to look pretty and they cant and so they go into this depression or even worse they take drugs and drink just to be accepted if they are physically not good looking. it makes me sick to my stomach!!
And some times they are very open to sex, and for some reason to some men they look beautiful no matter what they look like, and this is not fare, this is not equal rights!!

To me and probly not to a lage majority of you, i find that the Quran speaks the Truth and nothing but the Truth.
I also find that the Gospel is also a good sorce of information of Jesus(pbuh) and im still waiting for a copy of the Torah. I also like some laws that the Buddist have, some of them are the same, almost Identical to Islam.

I no longer point the finger at any religion, no i try my hardest so that people can understand Islam.
And in return i try to Understand other religions.

I try to tell you all that there are heaps of good wemon out there, but most of them do bad things, like Useing sex to there advantage to weak minded men.
All wemon should be better than than that, they are very smart, and they should use that against Ignorent men, even if that means that they will be killed for it, they are the best wemon, i believe.

I find that Afgahny men feel threated when they see an educated women, iv always wondered why, they dont even let there wemon read..This is not Islam, this is the work of Ignorent men, who have power!

So if you are going to point the fingure at anyone, you should think about it first!!
Is it the people, or is it the religion?

Thats how i view the world today.

But this is why God gave us freewill to speak, so dont take my word for it, do your own resurch.

Salaam

Guerilla

Guerilla, thats excellent morality. what you said about culture is very true.




I hate our american culture very much. Its getting very sick and disturbing.




I have to ask something. Does it say in the koran in one of the sura's that you are allowed to have multiple wives, even up to four at a time?




And what I said about dis honoring zerodeep, is that thou shall not kill was tuaght by their God of the OT, the torah is part of their belief, and the same God of the koran was the same God of the torah as I see it, so killing on your own judgement is a mortal sin. if these people could only understand to fight with prayers instead of force and if they only knew the time of forgiveness is now and the time of sacrafice is now, their lands would
not be in so much war, and hate would not exist.



Killing is a sin the human heart knows, een if God would not to reveal it, we would stll know its wrong.





peace.

Truth,

And what I said about dis honoring zerodeep, is that thou shall not kill was tuaght by their God of the OT, the torah is part of their belief, and the same God of the koran was the same God of the torah as I see it, so killing on your own judgement is a mortal sin. if these people could only understand to fight with prayers instead of force and if they only knew the time of forgiveness is now and the time of sacrafice is now, their lands would

All religious Doctrins incorporate this fundamental Bias, bet how many oblige? Christianity taught that no man shall shed Blood. Hey, lets just bloody hang them then! See, No blood.

Not to single out Christians, this is the flaw of many Socities.
The religion my family practices ( Sikhism ) says all man / woman is born equal no matter thier Gender, Religious Creed, Race, etc.
Yet even with the equality of men and women their have been isolated inccidents of " Honor Killings ", My father forbids me to marry outside my race, caste, and women are not treated equaly.

The social variable is too strong for religions to survive on thier own merits.

Deep

In the early days of Utah the Mormons did honor killings. They called it "Blood Atonement". Now though, they deny it ever happened.

Im sorry, I was look at the boobs in your avatar. What did you just say?

Deep

Originally posted by ZeroDeep
Im sorry, I was look at the boobs in your avatar. What did you just say?

Deep

Look away from the Avatar!


"In the early days of Utah the Mormons did honor killings. They called it "Blood Atonement". Now though, they deny it ever happened.
"

Dammit its so hard. Who is that in your avatar?
Dont you hate it when men stare at your boobs when talking to you?

Deep

" religion"

Gods religion will survive until the end. there are people who follow his true teachings and know in their hearts when they see him. there are people who follow the true heart of conscience and commit no hypocracy. these people exist, though few, will survive until the end, and forever after the end.



peace.

Gods religion will survive until the end. there are people who follow his true teachings and know in their hearts when they see him. there are people who follow the true heart of conscience and commit no hypocracy. these people exist, though few, will survive until the end, and forever after the end.

What is Gods religions exactly?

Deep

Originally posted by Truth

" religion"

Gods religion will survive until the end. there are people who follow his true teachings and know in their hearts when they see him. there are people who follow the true heart of conscience and commit no hypocracy. these people exist, though few, will survive until the end, and forever after the end.



peace.

What "God" are you talking about? Vishnu? Lord Krishna? Zeus? Isis? Jupiter? Allah?