Why * I Disagree With John Lear * And YOU Should Too

reply to post by Navieko


Ahhh yes stay on topic. Refuting your claims is part of the topic seeing your high and mighty rant you loftly lobbed at us. I was merely putting your analogies and arguments in the right place as rubbish. Though how I have strayed from "the topic" as you put it is beyond me, unless the topic is backing your silly claims up, which I will not be doing. I know you simply expected to blast the OP and simply enjoy how great it made you feel.

And what you want is not always what others want. And there are after all opposing viewpoints out there that has just as much right to speak as you and those that you agree with. You don't have to read this thread.

And nice application of passive agressive BS when obviously beaten.



[edit on 3-11-2007 by WraothAscendant]

[edit on 3-11-2007 by WraothAscendant]

reply to post by Rockpuck


I agree, John Lear makes fantastic claims but never backs them up with evidence. The thing that really bothers me is, when he makes a claim as fact you assume he must have evidence to backup his "factual" claims, yet he never posts said evidence. When you call him on it, he attempts to insult or belittle you then your graciously thanked for your post .

Obviously I don't believe what he has to say but because of who he is, some people will. Someone in his position should feel some responsibility when posting as their statements are automatically given more weight.

Is it really so difficult to start a sentence with "In my opinion..." or "my personal belief is..." or even "I have no evidence but..."

Originally posted by WraothAscendant

Yes but what you want is not always what others want. And there are after all opposing viewpoints out there that has just as much right to speak as you and those that you agree with.

And nice application of passive agressive BS when obviously beaten.

You're really full of it. If you want to open a thread, so we can continue this -- go for it. Here at ATS it's in the T&C NOT to derail a thread with off subject, back and forth blabber.
I'm ashamed that I've even bothered to reply as much as I have to your comments. If you'd like to think of yourself as 'victorious' in whatever imaginary "debate" you thought we had going -- go for it!

Though how I have strayed from "the topic" as you put it is beyond me, unless the topic is backing your silly claims up, which I will not be doing.

I used an analogy in which I thought best describes the mentality that those members here at ATS have -- in wanting John Lear banned, for posting his beliefs. Even though you see the point, you continue to attack the analogy based on trivial information that doesn't make a difference, at hand -- to the subject and context in which I used it in.

I made my point about the OP clear, I'm finished with this thread.
If you're up for a real debate, maybe I'll see you in another thread.

[edit on 3/11/07 by Navieko]

reply to post by Navieko


LoL! No thank you I think I shall pass. But if I feel the need for such futility I will debate a brick wall. It uses less delusion and well in a word BS.

Good day and good riddence.


[edit on 3-11-2007 by WraothAscendant]

*Deep breath*

Aah. I bet you all that John sit back by his computer right now, laughing at the attention his critics are honoring him with. It's great being the center of everybody's attention, isn't it, John?

And I've got to hand it to all his critics. That you care so much about us other people, that you are prepared to make our decisions about what to believe and not to believe, for us. Because, obviously, we can't think for ourselves, and we aren't capable of deciding whether or not John is feeding us false information. Better then that you tell us what is true and what is not, isn't it?

Seriously.

If you don't like what John has to say, then why don't you just put him under "ignore" and be rid of the headahce he gives you? It's not like anybody's putting a gun to your head, forcing you to read every one of his posts...unless I'm completely missing something about ATS.

Later...

JL responds like a politician to tough questions IMO.

Also, IMO I think he really believes what he says, but often times can't fully lay his proof for all us to see w/out risk to others he knows.

Is what he thinks is "true" really true? I tend to think he has been taken for a ride w/out his knowing to spread dis-info and mis-direct truth seekers.

This man has more balls and more guts than most, and I feel he belives in what he says. Does what he say equal truth? THATS debatable.

Lets debate the facts, not the man.

I disagree with too much disagreeing as it is disagreeable. If you disagree with this we will just agree to disagree.

If we spend too much time stomping our feet and finding faults everywhere instead of going somewhere else and getting more informed we will be disagreeably ignorant. I just don't get the motivation to waste too much time fragging each other instead of going forward.

You are doing the work of the disinformation effort. "Get their eye off the points by pitting them against each other." They say. Sheeple are so disagreeable.

Why not tell us who you think is relevant in stead of wasting the time of people you think have no ability to think for them selves. Post some positive for the effort here.

For heavens sake can't we stop listing all the faults and focus on the strengths?

Sheesh! Like teenage girls trashing each other.

Many things to the casual observer in the realms of new science would seem outrageous. Much of the more recent findings in the area of quantum physics for example. Or look at articles in the journal of near death studies for instance. These are things that may not be 3 or even limited to just 4 dimentions. With this in mind, perhaps, the Lear ideas surrounding possible "sould collectors" on Luna may not be so far fetched after all. You (thread starter) with all due respect, and thanks for posting....but you sound like your talking from the early 50's. These days Mr. Lear's ideas, abstact, and written for entertainment often as they may be, are closer to mainstream than many of us might think. After reading many journal articles in these areas, I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt.

Why embrase the past, when the future is here right now? It's our world, and our home is this solar system and all of the stars along with the other beings...we just have to learn how to grasp it. Remember, all science is is observation and failure to prove false a theory.

John Lear was commenting the other day on a thread, and if he does think all he says is fact well that would be a little out there. I am a sceptic but I do believe in any possibilities. Although he said something the other day about the far side of the moon having more oxygen then the near side; incorrect for a number of reasons but I'll just state one: Atmosphere is spread evenly over a plain. So you gotta take this guy with a grain of salt. He's a good theorist who does indead have much time on his hands, don't knock him he's no worse then anyone else on here, me included.

P.S. Are there any devot John Lear followers?

John Lear.........."Disinfo" personified. I've read many of his threads. I'd suggest batching Lear and Greer et al in their own special section, maybe called 'people with god complexes' or something. If someone tells me he's a great artist I'll believe it when I see it. A lot of hot air does not a fact make.
It would be great to find credible evidence, I'm sorry to say neither Greer nor Lear nor Hoagland have any it seems. They are exploiting the gullible and the disperate, this is how most religions etc prosper.
I do believe admin have a duty to members to screen information for lies and hoaxes and general bs. Because if they don't the site will become a haven for total nutters and money zealots like Greer. I've been visiting this site on and off for over a year. There's lot's of interesting and compelling stuff here that holds water, but Lears premise is waaaaay out there and " without proof it's spoof ". Sincerely though.

[edit on 3-11-2007 by willywagga]

I think that a lack of tangible proof is visible throughout all conspiracy theories, because frankly, (speculatively speaking right now) whoever is covering up the existence of aliens, makes sure there is none. Whoever keeps us from experiencing our full spiritual potential, makes sure there is no proof. Whoever doesn't want us to know about the soul catcher on the moon, makes sure there is no proof.

I know this has been repeated to death by now and I'm sorry for that, but that there is no proof of a theory isn't in itself a proof that a theory is bs. I go more on my gut feeling when I know that it's nar impossible to acquire proof for a theory. That's what we all have to do when it comes to theories like that of the soul catcher on the moon. Because neither you or I, or John Lear, is going to go to the moon with a camera and see if it's really there or not. Somebody is going to make sure of that.

the problem with mr lear is that while most people try to present stories with fact and science, his are based on pure speculation. If it wasnt speculation he would have proof of what he says.

Its quite frustrating to read john lears replies because i think people write about him to get an angry response but nothing seems to rattle him too much, whichs annoys people even more. They want to see him get angry and let something slip, but he never does. He generally sticks to what he is saying.
There are many theories out there which conflict with each other but john believes his are the correct ones. Like he knows the entire history of the alien situation and everybody else is wrong, sort of like religion in that respect.

While i dont believe most of what he says, if the site was filled with everyone believing the same thing where would the debate be.
This site is here to debate all manner of stories and its up to the readers to decide if it is real or not.
At the end of the day no one as of yet has proved there is no soul catcher so there is still a chance he is providing truth. Its just commonsense that tells otherwise.

Anyway that is just my opinion on mr lear.

I kind of agree what you have to say. Two things popped up in my mind when I read your post, however.

First off, that he believes his theories are the correct ones is only natural. I too believe my own theories, or rather, the ones I've picked up during my search, is the correct ones. That's what belief in a theory is about. But that doesn't mean I can't change my opinion on that matter.

Second, I think that while Mr. Lear believes in his own theories, he just as much attempts to spark discussion on different subjects. Because, as you say for yourself, if there are no different theories, then there is nothing to discuss, and if that's the case, well...then we'll just stop dead in our development tracks.

As for the fact he never get's angry, well, that's just a sign of a man who is good at debating. To keep your head cool is important if you want to make your point in a discussion. Just look at Alex Jones. On the other hand I think it is rather self-degrading by the people that attempt to make him angry to do that.

Just continues to throw my 2 öre into the game.

[edit on 3-11-2007 by David_Reale]

In order to believe in 99% of what John Lear says, you need to believe that 2+2 does not equal 4 and that an inch is really not quite an inch. Despite every single calculator and ruler in there world that says so. John Lear is digging a hole he can't get out of, without the support of people that don't fully understand how things work. It's easy for someone to believe 2+2 does not equal 4 when they don't understand mathematics.....it's an analogy but you get the point.

Concerning the ATS "terms and conditions", you can violate the T&C around here as much as you want to, without unpleasant attention from the mods by simply stating that things are "just your opinion" or "something I believe" etc. John is careful to do this every time he starts getting called out in a thread for pushing things like they are concrete facts. He is also careful to distance and separate himself from the information he posts when he is getting called out, such as saying "this is what I've been told" or "I didn't see it, but so and so was there".....that way he is able to be clever, and post anything he wants. And we can do the same if we wanted to as well.

But, what kind of place would this be if everyone had this mindset? It would be a mess (and its heading there now).

This also boils down to the blind, wide eyed believers crowd vs the skeptics crowd, which is funny. You believers get away with so much T&C violations on the board....things that us skeptics get post banned and warned for ON A REGULAR BASIS. And its because you bunch of crybaby whiners U2U the mods en masse whenever you see a chance to. I know of 7 skeptics that have been warned and/or posts banned for going off topic in threads where blind believers were making their usual outrageous claims.....then within the SAME thread the were two entire pages of THEM going off topic....with no attention from the mods. One sided?....I think so.

And it's because this place is a for-profit business as well. They claim that Lear does not really help this place with any hits, but every little bit helps. I mean, click on the "hot topics" button at the top and see how many are John Lear related. I mean, who wants to sit around and read a bunch of logical stuff from skeptics when there are outrageous stories to read and things that, secretly, most people want to believe? Its good for website hits....which is good for the bottom line. So I have no doubt that there is official encouragement of outlandish things on ATS for that reason alone. Wide-eyed believers deliver more website traffic than those of us with common sense, reason and logic.

But, I think the thing that ticks off those of us with common sense, reason and logic (ever notice how often I repeat those three words in all my threads???) is this place has a motto...."DENY IGNORANCE" and then this entire forum flies in the face of that statement, and is openly supported and encouraged by the company, ATS. Is is not ignorant to believe in some of the things that John says are true, when most of them fly in the face of hundreds of years of science? Who's ignorant, the folks who believe some nobody on a conspiracy site, with no scientific background and who was pretty much a FAILURE at most of his life's endeavors....or the teachings of science and astronomy, most of which is based on predictable math and measurements that can be verified independently. Come on, it's called "DENY IGNORANCE"

Now, if they changed their motto to something that is more agreeable with the content they allowing to be posted, then we wouldn't be half as riled up. Anyone got any good ideas about what the new ATS motto should be? Deny Common Sense? Deny Logic? Deny Reason? If any of those were their official motto no one would be calling them out, now would they?



[edit on 3-11-2007 by IgnoreTheFacts]

[edit on 3-11-2007 by IgnoreTheFacts]

Whenever I think something is far fetched or sounds implausible, I remind myself that we are hurling through the vastness of space on a big chunk of rock. Just look at a picture of the Earth taken from space and remind yourself that you are actually down there going about your business on that beautiful big blue marble.

Add to that the fact that we were either fabricated from thin air by an entity known only to us as GOD or that we evolved from a single cell organism that came from god only knows where then things get very strange indeed.

Suddenly anything seems possible and John Lears theories don't seem all that weird.

I have no problem with John - in fact I think he's good for the site. We happen to disagree on just about every single thing, but so what? Maybe I'm wrong after all? I not an omnipotent god And besides, I enjoy the challenge of finding (what I believe to be) irrefutable evidence to debunk some of John's claims.

No, the people I have problems with are those who religiously believe everything John says, and then turn on the rest of us for preferring fact and evidence over blind faith.

Originally posted by neo2012


Its quite frustrating to read john lear's replies because i think people write about him to get an angry response but nothing seems to rattle him too much, which annoys people even more. They want to see him get angry and let something slip, but he never does. He generally sticks to what he is saying.

No, your dead wrong. It has been said in this forum a hundred times by dozens of people..and John proves them right every single time. We are not piling up on him to get him riled up or anything, we are upset because he can't defend himself scientifically, and 90% of the time he can't even answer an honest question with anything more than "thanks for your post" and some stupid one liner....but he dodges and weaves the critical information. Go read some threads. You will quickly see how he does not answer direct questions in his own friggin' forum. He will find one thing in a post he does not agree with, and use that as a pitiful excuse to ignore the content and not answer the questions that could prove his points or make him look like a fool.

Either way, if we all acted like him, and dodged serious questions from people that didn't share our personal views this place would be a complete joke. We would all stand around and just keep thanking each other for posting, lol.

While i agree of cause people believe in there own theories, alot of stories on here are of someone trying to start a debate on a subject of which they would like to know more. They just put a theory out there and ask whether it is plausable to start the debate.
While mr lear doesnt seem to be as open about accepting other possibillites even when presented with well thought out science.
Im am not one of those people who just take a dig at him for the sake of it, but think that he can come across in an abrupt and stubborn manner which makes it hard to dig deeper into his theories.
It has to be said that mr lear is apart of ufo history, in that most people have heard of him, i read alot of what he wrote regarding lazar and area 51. I found it quite amazing that he was a member of this site at first but just like greer the more he talks the less you believe him.
But again, i dont think anyone has proved him wrong yet so i think we need to stop bashing him and try to find out if he is right first.

It's a tough subject to discuss, because it's a tough job to be a moderator. It would probably be a lot easier if everybody just behaved and debated in an orderly fashion, without insulting eachother, or becoming aggressive or patronizing. As far as I'm concerned, when it comes to the subjects we discuss here on ATS, everybody should have John's former signature, "personal opinion/theory unless stated otherwise". That way we wouldn't have the problem in the first place.

And I state again, it's rare that we see any tangible proof when we're discussing alien abductions, for example, or Out of Body Experiences, simply because of their nature as paranormal events. You're not going to bring a video camera when you're being abducted in the middle of the night. And me, well, I'm not going to the moon anytime soon.

Of course, you always have the right to ask for proof before you accept a theory as fact, but you also need to remember how hard it is to get such proof when you request it.

As for that John dodges questions, well, I guess only he can respond to that. I've seen it once or twice, and imho he just feel that continuing to argue with the person won't add anything concrete to the discussion.

As always, just my 2 öre. I think I'm running out of 'em by now.

Oh, and by the way, don't forget, he's getting up in his age. And old habits and sharp wits die slowly.

Everybody has the right to agree or disagree with people, views and ideas even when they are just, ideas and opinions.

The problem with Mr. Lear like many other members in forums like UFOs and Paranormal is that they can not be prove.

That makes it an easy target to bashing and attacks.

But not necessarily makes the views a lie or unprovable in a future.

Just because a person can not prove what he sees or have experienced does not make it unprovable, but for the unbeliever is easier to tell that is a lie.

I have my own personal experiences no like Mr. Lear but some instances feel almost the same.

Does that makes me a lier? No. they are my experiences and what I deduce from them are my fact.

If I want to share them does that will make me a lier still?, No, but for an unbeliever I will not be able to provide prof but even If I did I will still be call a lier.

That is the problem with the paranormal and UFOs experiences.

I like Mr. Lear ideas, opinions and point of view, but you do not see me posting much of my own experiences around here when it comes to paranormal or UFOs.

Why ? perhaps this thread is one of the reasons.