To eat meat or not? My thoughts and theories.

This was a subtopic brought up in another thread, so I decided to start a new one dedicated to it at the prompting of DeadFlagBlues.

Apparently, we have strong enough opinions to discuss relevant theories further, and I see no reason why everyone shouldn't be in on the fun

I'll start with my point, and follow with support. DeadFlagBlues, this one's for you. (please, keep in mind these theories are based on my own opinion and research)

Human beings need to eat red beef, whether you like it or not. Proline - an essential amino acid - is found only in red beef. It can be found as an artificial supplement, but, if health is your goal, putting anything manufactured into your body -by principle - defeats this purpose.

My theory is that if we apply a one-size-fits-all approach to our lifestyle choices, we'll invariably wind up causing greater damage to our health with extreme changes - especially in the long run - than if we just left our bodies alone.

I've personally seen first hand this exact type of damage happen many times to many of my friends and relatives from Atkins, vegan and meat extreme diets. pah!

I can guarantee that a lumberjack will not survive on romaine lettuce with a splash of light vinegarette. But on the other hand, sedentary folks (like me) might do just fine on that diet. But you still need red meat - even if just a nibble every now and then. I think having these things in my face called canines help support this.

I understand what vegans/vegetarians are trying to get at - I really do - animal proteins are bad. *very bad* in fact, and that's not to mention all the hormonal corporate tampering. But you still NEED it in trace (read: variable) amounts proportional to you YOUR lifestyle. Meat, milk, eggs, etc, all high-protein foods - building block foods. Well, if you're done growing, what does your body do with these fat-soluable substances? That's right! Bad things! You're no longer growing, but you are ALWAYS *decaying* - you need just enough of these items to counteract the natural aging of your body - even though you are no longer growing.

Ok, DeadFlagBlues, I give the floor to you. I'm gonna reload both barrels (cuz I got plenty more ammo) and prop up my phalanx for the volley of arrows that's sure to ensue

(edited because grammar I well speak cannot)



[edit on 2-11-2007 by guavas]

A raw vegan diet seems to be the healthiest in my opinion.

First, we get the best nutrition from eating live foods, not dead ones. There may be a small amount of nutrients in dead meat, but I'd rather get a lot more from live foods.

Here's an article about the best and worst protein sources:

The best sources of protein are:

spirulina - a superfood with outstanding protein content. Ounce for ounce, it offers twelve times more digestible protein than beef!

organic whey protein - a fantastic source of digestible protein, but you have to make sure it comes from organic cow's milk and contains no hormones or pesticides. A good product for whey protein is Jay Robb's whey protein.

quinoa - the grain of the Incas, quinoa can replace wheat or rice in your cooking while offering a complete protein (something no other grain offers)

fish - fresh fish like salmon, orange roughy, shrimp and calamari are outstanding sources of low-fat protein. However, some harvesting methods (especially for shrimp) cause environmental damage. Furthermore, many fish from the sea are contaminated with high levels of mercury, making them a poor choice for daily consumption.

Sources of protein to avoid:

cow's milk - this substance is often marketed as a high protein food, but in fact its protein content is rather low on a volume basis, and the homogenized fats in milk are thought to promote heart disease and circulatory disorders.

beef or red meat - for starters, beef carries the risk of mad cow disease. Furthermore, beef is frequently sourced from cows who are fed chicken litter, rendered animal parts, crops sprayed with pesticides and other highly undesirable substances that don't belong in the food chain. Packaged red meat at the grocery store is often preserved with sodium nitrite, a cancer-causing ingredient.

protein powders with artificial sweeteners like aspartame, saccharin or sucralose -- never buy or consume protein powders made with artificial sweeteners like aspartame. Aspartame is linked to neurological disorders and outright destruction of nerve cells thanks to its chemical toxicity. Instead, look for protein powders made with stevia (a natural, herbal sweetener).

cheese - cheese is an extremely high fat food item, and it's the worst kind of fat, too: saturated fat from animal sources. Eating cheese regularly will pack on the pounds and clog your arteries.

Source: High protein diet good for your health, good for weight loss, says startling new research


Here's some good information about raw diets:

A raw foods diet is exactly that: raw foods. No cooking, no
grilling, no steaming, no application of heat of any kind. Why?
Because eating food that is closest to its natural state engenders a
tremendous exchange of energy between food and body. The result,
over time, is a feeling of buoyant, radiant health.

A raw foods diet is predominantly raw vegan. Raw foods are
still "living," in a manner of speaking. They may be dehydrated,
frozen or fermented, but at no time have they been heated to a
temperature of more than 110 degrees. Their enzymes and nutrients
are intact. If you set these foods in their whole form into soil and
watered them, many would sprout.

We've been trained to recognize meats, eggs and dairy products as
good sources of protein. However, protein also can be found in many
plant-source foods — and some of these foods contain more protein
than any food of animal origin.

Because cooked proteins are at least partially denatured, food that
is cooked provides the body with much less protein than the same
food in its raw state. As cooked food is predominant in our culture,
protein-intake recommendations (currently hovering around 70 grams a
day) tend to be based on cooked rather than raw food. But
researchers at the Max Planck Institute have found that when protein
is consumed in its raw state, a person needs only half as much as
when protein is consumed after being cooked. In other words, instead
of eating 70 grams of cooked protein a day, you can eat 35 grams of
raw protein and still meet your nutritional needs.

Source: Food Factor

Carnivores are predators, herbivores are prey. carnivores are aggressive, herbivores are docile. I would rather be the wolf than the sheep.

Originally posted by guavas
I'll start with my point, and follow with support. DeadFlagBlues, this one's for you. (please, keep in mind these theories are based on my own opinion and research)

I completely understand. Both sides can be poorly represented, and this could only lead to a better understanding from both angles, I'm sure.

Human beings need to eat red beef, whether you like it or not. Proline - an essential amino acid - is found only in red beef. It can be found as an artificial supplement, but, if health is your goal, putting anything manufactured into your body -by principle - defeats this purpose.

Although it may be good for your skin, it's actually a "non-essential amino acid"

All 8 essential amino acids can be derived from sources such as hemp protein, dark leafy green vegetables, soy, whole grains, legumes, nuts and seeds.

My theory is that if we apply a one-size-fits-all approach to our lifestyle choices, we'll invariably wind up causing greater damage to our health with extreme changes - especially in the long run - than if we just left our bodies alone..

Exactly. Everybody is different. Every body. I think meat in moderation is acceptable but definitely unnecessary in most cases. A key to good health is a practical approach and some people aren't cut out for Veganism or vegetarianism, I would rather have it otherwise, but simply, I'm not them.

I've personally seen first hand this exact type of damage happen many times to many of my friends and relatives from Atkins, vegan and meat extreme diets. pah!

Any uniformed decision to change your diet can be harmful. Infact, a lot of vegans and vegetarians are sugar addicts because they revert to eating processed foods that are convenient and just because they're "vegan." Any diet needs to be balanced, meatless or not.

I can guarantee that a lumberjack will not survive on romaine lettuce with a splash of light vinegarette. But on the other hand, sedentary folks (like me) might do just fine on that diet. But you still need red meat - even if just a nibble every now and then. I think having these things in my face called canines help support this.

Well energy is energy. Seeing as how most of us have rather inactive lives from being on ATS all day, I'd have to agree with your assertation. That's why I think a vegan or vegetarian diet would be so beneficial to the masses. Just the cut in saturated fat is pretty amazing. The cut in that kind of fat could only do us wonders in regards to cancer, sickness, digestive issues, and general health.

As far as Canines are concerned... I won't come down on you too hard. I know it only seems like common sense, but it's actually a pretty intricate argument. Every primate has them. Even the 800 pound vegan Silverbacks have massive canines. Some say it's for defense, some say it's for intimidation, some say it's for hard vegetables. I don't buy into our teeth being completely herbivorous because as human history will tell us, we pretty much ate everything we could get our hands on. Another aspect of our side of the debate would be human saliva. It's not acidic like carnivores. We have an alkaline type of saliva that does a pretty amazing job digesting non-meat before it even hits our digestive system.

I understand what vegans/vegetarians are trying to get at - I really do - animal proteins are bad. *very bad* in fact, and that's not to mention all the hormonal corporate tampering. But you still NEED it in trace (read: variable) amounts proportional to you YOUR lifestyle. Meat, milk, eggs, etc, all high-protein foods - building block foods. Well, if you're done growing, what does your body do with these fat-soluable substances? That's right! Bad things! You're no longer growing, but you are ALWAYS *decaying* - you need just enough of these items to counteract the natural aging of your body - even though you are no longer growing.

You're correct. Everybody does need protein, but you don't have to necessarily derive that intake from an animal source. Infact all dairy is terrible for you, because we're simply not made to digest it. Our bodies aren't adapted to sustain the mycotoxin intake a lone from the modern dairy and meat processes. Plant protein is more effecient specifically for humans, without all the gross side effects you would have with meat and dairy. There's even a theory that pea protein may be the most effecient in the world by natural means. Considering one of the most powerful animals on earth is an 800 pound vegan, I'd tend to agree that we don't need animal proteins to have "strength."

Ok, DeadFlagBlues, I give the floor to you. I'm gonna reload both barrels (cuz I got plenty more ammo) and prop up my phalanx for the volley of arrows that's sure to ensue

(edited because grammar I well speak cannot)

Psh. Have you seen my posts from the last three days. I swear to god I'm typing with my eyes closed.

Originally posted by RWPBR
Carnivores are predators, herbivores are prey. carnivores are aggressive, herbivores are docile. I would rather be the wolf than the sheep.

Absolute simple reasoning would tell us so, right? Thank god we've actually evolved from chucking spears at mammoths. I know we're hung up on a 7 million years of evolution, but it's time to put our big boy pants on and progress in every social dynamic, including diet.

A total raw foods diet can lead to certain problems w/ thyroid gland and others, whereas a vegetarian/vegan diet is preferred.

Red meat leads to cancer and the protein/amino acid argument isn't one -- you never fully digest red meat -- you don't have fangs and fire isn't meant for animals.

I know some will jump up to the plate w/ fire/cooking killing bacteria -- doesn't matter, it's encoded in the beasts genes, all creatures are mainly water and a decent % bacteria. Eating meat is kinda nasty and pointless in postmodern era.

Lastly, over-consumption of soy for those without meat in their diet leads to kidney issues, been feeling it lately and been backing off soy w/ some articles I've been reading -- the Japanese only have it once to twice a week. A macrobiotic (w/ fish) diet is also healthy to a certain degree. Still finding mercury from poisoned oceans in a lot of fish, even organic from Whole Foods. I prefer non-fish Japanese food and there's plenty of 'ethnic' vegetarian and vegan options available.

There's also been hundreds of thousands of death per year attributed to 'cardiac arrest' different then heart attacks, both of which have been document to over-consumption of red meat aaaaand aspartame.

reply to post by DeadFlagBlues


Do we have to join hands and sing Kum Bye Ya :p
Have the laws of nature been repealed ?

All things in moderation my friend, including moderation its self.
Just because we CAN do something doesnt meat we MUST do it.
I can drive a Honda Civic hybrid to work but I choose to drive my Chevy Suburban.

reply to post by RWPBR


Look at my criminal record and see how "peaceful" I am.. Seriously. Nice generalization but you'd be surprised at how two personal dynamics like diet and disposition can be totally unrelated. Not all of us have pony tails and hybrids, and a lot of us can throw a devistating right straight.

The law of nature isn't "repealed" but modified to proper and relative terms. You're using a primitve understanding of what it is to thrive and survive, which has no relevance to modern age. And you can drive whatever you want. I don't make my choices at this point in time to change the world, but to compensate for the likes of yours. Do what you want.

Originally posted by anhinga
you don't have fangs

see, yes you do, your canine teeth are the third pairing on the top and bottom, also you have incisors, the first and second pairing, also good for eating meat. your entire digestive system is set up as a compromise between eating plant and animal matter. humans are neither herbivore nor carnivore but a third option, omnivore.

for a balanced diet simply eat food on the basis of how easy it would be to gather in the wild,

fruit, berries and nuts = easy to collect, eat lots
root vegatables = hard work, eat them once a day tops
meat, foul, fish = really hard work, eat them once a week
dairy, refined fats, refined sugars = not gonna happen, steer clear.

seems perfectly logical to me.

reply to post by pieman


Good for "eating" meat but carnivorous canines are used to rip flesh, not just process it.

reply to post by pieman


And I jumped the gun..

The last half of your post is a dietary ABSOLUTE. Even with the assimilation of meat. Nail on the head for a balanced diet.

I'm impressed. I've seen threads like these spiral out of control in other forums, and it's refreshing to see people step up the plate and discuss this forthright without without going april sugar.

I stand corrected, DeadFlagBlues. I got the information about Proline from Prescription for Nutritional Healing by Mr. & Mrs. Balch, and drew my own conclusions.

Balance and moderation are absolute key in health. I tend to make cheap stabs at vegans who choose that lifestyle because they saw a fuzzy pup seal on the Muary Povich show, and go dingus on themselves and everyone else around them without doing a lick of research.

However, I have all the respect in the world for those who have approached these dietary lifestyles AUTHENTICALLY and with liberal amounts of discression.

But I digress.

To get back to topic, though, I have to point out that vegans - as well as meat eaters - are prone to their own particular types of cancer. Funny thing is, is I hear both are prone to colon cancer. People swear up and down that they feel better after going vegan or going heavy meat.

A vegetarian could say the same thing about a meat eater as I, when I say of a vegetarian, that I've *personally* known those who've had ghastly pallors, sunken or bulgy eyes (that's the thyroid right there) propensity for illness at all times and wracked with colon cancer.

(I'm actually describing my senior year teacher who claimed the lifestyle was a choice for health)

So...at this empass, I posit that, although we all have the same basic nutrional needs, might those similarities end when heritige is considered?

For example, I have a friend who's heritage spans back to mongolia. If you were to stick this guy on a diet of apricots and wheatgrass, I exaggerate not when I say he'd be in the hospital this side of a week.

And to actually *support* a vegetarian diet, my other friend is from India and his mom is a hardcore Hindu traditionalist. I suspect that she'd end up in much worse shape than simply landing in ICU if she were to change her diet to include meat.

Maybe this whole thing is a testamony to Moderation, and, To Each His Own?

But, if you're one of those who loves to peep at what your enemy is thinking, I strongly recommend:

www.cholesterol-and-health.com...

(edited because I can't spell)

[edit on 2-11-2007 by guavas]

How about the fact that you are putting tortured flesh into your body? How can any of you state that Big Brother is a threat to all forms of life and yet turn around and support the barbaric meatpacking industry. Chickens are placed in cages after having their beaks cut off in which they can't even move. Cows are literally milked to death and and much of the blood and pus from their overused udders is drank by you and your family every morning with breakfast. Being a good human being means making sacrifices and I chose to give up meat because why put animals through this torture when we today have access to healthier more humane foods? Also I am 6'1" 200 pounds with 11% body fat I am also a personal trainer and let me tell you those who eat the most meat are the most unhealthy and in my line of work I can spot a vegetarian a mile away because I can count on my fingers the few unhealthy vegetarians I've encountered so I don't know where you are meeting these people.

Your claim is that we NEED to eat meat. If you don't eat meat will you die or suffer? Apparently not, since there are so many vegans still around. Eating meat is a choice, a desire, not a need.

I've tried a vegan diet for months and have to admit I felt a lot healthier, had more energy, and felt "cleaner." But ultimately I desire the pleasures of the flesh more so.

Originally posted by DeadFlagBlues
reply to post by RWPBR

 

...You're using a primitve understanding of what it is to thrive and survive, which has no relevance to modern age....

Nope I just do what works for me and mine. It is easier to eat meat for protein than to look hither and yon for protein substitutes as well as much more tastey.

Beside anything that ticks off tree huggers cant be all bad.

I dont promote Meat unless asked, as diet is a personal choice like religion and sexual preference. Why do you feel the need to promote rabbit food ?

reply to post by guavas

I'm impressed. I've seen threads like these spiral out of control in other forums, and it's refreshing to see people step up the plate and discuss this forthright without without going april sugar.

I don't know why the topic of diet gets so heated. It seems to be like our friend above that's like "Tortured flesh, animal killer, party aniimal!" Which I feel the same way.. To an extent. Meat eaters "How can you SURVIVE without meat!?" It's a pretty ignorant discussion all the way through, usually. People don't focus on the the relevant issues and decide it's more productive to have it out over the obvious ones.

I stand corrected, DeadFlagBlues. I got the information about Proline from Prescription for Nutritional Healing by Mr. & Mrs. Balch, and drew my own conclusions.

No harm, no foul. You may have needed it, you may have not. Everybody is always trying to sell somebody something.

Balance and moderation are absolute key in health. I tend to make cheap stabs at vegans who choose that lifestyle because they saw a fuzzy pup seal on the Muary Povich show, and go dingus on themselves and everyone else around them without doing a lick of research.

Compassion is a good start. Concern for your envrionment is another one. It's human nature to jump into something head first and find your way afterwards. I'm all about people jumping head first, just not into your own ass, either side of any discussion.

However, I have all the respect in the world for those who have approached these dietary lifestyles AUTHENTICALLY and with liberal amounts of discression.

I'm just stoked not to have the same "Yaaaaaaaaaarrrrrrrrrrrr meeeeeat!!! ITS WHAT WE DO." argument.

get back to topic, though, I have to point out that vegans - as well as meat eaters - are prone to their own particular types of cancer. Funny thing is, is I hear both are prone to colon cancer. People swear up and down that they feel better after going vegan or going heavy meat.

Any drastic change in diet will have an effect on the way you feel. I know one guy on here Badge01 swears by the Atkins diet. Says he feels great and loses weight, etc. I'm not him so I can't say, but I've known some people who were on it and they were miserable. I know some vegans who feel great initially but feel worse after the "cleansing" of all the chemicals, and excess meat in the colon is flushed out, due to an insufficient diet, not enough energy intake.

A vegetarian could say the same thing about a meat eater as I, when I say of a vegetarian, that I've *personally* known those who've had ghastly pallors, sunken or bulgy eyes (that's the thyroid right there) propensity for illness at all times and wracked with colon cancer.

(I'm actually describing my senior year teacher who claimed the lifestyle was a choice for health)

A lot of Thyroid problems are genetic and only brought on by an Iodine defeciency, but there are a few concerns with a Vegan diet. Most stem from the "fear of soy!" Your body confuses the soy byproduct as it's own thyroid horomone. This doesn't happen when you're not defecient of simple iodine that you can get from most any slightly processed food and from sea veggies. You can even put iodine salt on whatever you're eating if you're not sure, which I haven't had any problem with and I never use table salt.

So...at this empass, I posit that, although we all have the same basic nutrional needs, might those similarities end when heritige is considered?

For example, I have a friend who's heritage spans back to mongolia. If you were to stick this guy on a diet of apricots and wheatgrass, I exaggerate not when I say he'd be in the hospital this side of a week.

And to actually *support* a vegetarian diet, my other friend is from India and his mom is a hardcore Hindu traditionalist. I suspect that she'd end up in much worse shape than simply landing in ICU if she were to change her diet to include meat.

Maybe this whole thing is a testamony to Moderation, and, To Each His Own?

I don't think it has a dramatic effect on anybody from any walk of life. I'm Irish, meat and potatoes as you could get and I transitioned fine, and loved it. I was actually pretty muscular and bulky when I went vegetarian. It was right after 'bulking" up and that meant eating anything and everything. I had cravings really bad but it didn't kill me or cause any health issues other than getting skinnier. You wouldn't believe the adaptability of the human species. And I don't know about Mongolian, but Indian food has a plethora of vegetarian options that are amazing and super cheap to make. Personally my favorite cooked food. I have a friend from Pakistan who has is own restaurant, and thank god for that.

Your last point is what it amounts to. You can have balance with both meat, and meatless diets. The problem comes when people adapt to these certain diets with a convoluted idea of "how" the body works. We all need key nutrients to stay alive, stay healthy, you can't just "eat" and expect a stable outcome. I hated veganism when I first started because it was so alien, even from a vegetarian diet. I will tell you right now, I'd never go back. Ever.

A positive input creates positive output. Simple and plain.

reply to post by RWPBR


Why would you want to intentionally piss off anyone? Treehuggers or not. That's kind of "duh durr durr, kwutaaaang!" mentality. And I promote veganism because I was your average "consumer" before I had taken this on, I was in the same shoes as everybody else. Just "getting by" on whatever, you know? Now that I'm Vegan, I can't express the improvement in my health. Anything that helped me this much, has to be beneficial to anybody else.

Also, the devistating effects meat has on numerous levels is worth it alone.

Pleasures of the flesh. Say what you will, we all evolved from the same ancestors. We come from a long line of omnivores. Our forebears survived because they could digest just about anything. It may be an appealing "new age" idea to embrace the no bleed concept for what you eat, but such an approach is going against a few million years of gastronomical progress.

When you get down to the nitty-gritty, and ignore all the BS that is supposed to make you feel guilt for it, a steak is a normal desire. It's normal because that's what our natural diet is built for.

Vegans are just another cult. And like most cults, at the heart is a money motive. Look at the books hawked by the "gurus" of this movement. They just followed the old adage of 'find something "new" and swear it's good', and wait for the innocent to fall prey.

Sorry if that idea hurts, but it's the way I see it.

reply to post by NGC2736

Pleasures of the flesh.

Okay, Lovecraft.

Say what you will, we all evolved from the same ancestors. We come from a long line of omnivores. Our forebears survived because they could digest just about anything.

It's apparent from above posts that all of us here are quite aware of the circumstances in which we thrived. That doesn't mean we should go back to incest and throwing spears. Thank god for evolution, huh?

It may be an appealing "new age" idea to embrace the no bleed concept for what you eat, but such an approach is going against a few million years of gastronomical progress.

Gastronomical progress that still hasn't adapted to meat or dairy. Have you ever heard of Toxicity? Mycotoxins? It's a little more complicated than "We should do it because we've done it."

When you get down to the nitty-gritty, and ignore all the BS that is supposed to make you feel guilt for it, a steak is a normal desire. It's normal because that's what our natural diet is built for.

A normal desire to who? Someone who eats meat? Myself being a huge meat eater in the past currently have NO desire what so ever for a steak, or any meat for that matter. I will agree that meat tastes good, but I like to think I'm above petty cravings. What about Buddhist monks? It's your convoluted idea of where the "craving" for meat comes from, and it's not "nature" in the slightest. We are a product of our environment and your diet is a big part of your personal environment.

Vegans are just another cult. And like most cults, at the heart is a money motive. Look at the books hawked by the "gurus" of this movement. They just followed the old adage of 'find something "new" and swear it's good', and wait for the innocent to fall prey. Sorry if that idea hurts, but it's the way I see it.

Oh, yeah. Polarization. So common with the misinformed.

Veganism is a diet and set of personal environmental reforms. We don't eat meat or dairy because the effects of those on our body are pretty obvious.

Common sense > Cult.

Truth hurts.

Visit a slaughter-house. I dare you.