Slaves to Credit -- Giving Up Your Life One Loan at a Time.

Originally posted by admriker444
3. never ever ever make a single payment once you stop paying your debts. You can actually start the 5-7 year cycle all over again. In some states making one payment is like creating a new account and you have to wait even longer for this to phase out off your credit.

Right. Settle the account, pay it off completely, or if you aren't, then dont make any small payments.

For example, I plan to save the cash outside of my checking, in my home, cashing work checks not depositing into checking, then calling the arses and saying I'd like to settle! and settle it in 1 payment, closed and gone, goodbye!

I am sick and annoyed about how much importance CREDIT has become in today's society. It is true that some people are to blame for their bad credit scores, but other people just had some bad luck happen. I think it is a shame that everything revolves around 3 UNREGULATED credit agencies.

reply to post by runetang


Ahhh but when you "settle", the credit card company will, 9 times out of 10, file you as a charge off. Even if they don't, the settlement hurts your credit score.

Unless you are super rich, credit WILL eventually be a problem for you in this country.

Credit card companies are not at all above illegal practices that hurt your score.


However, I am with you guys. No more credit cards for me and I will avoid credit at all costs (as I have done for the last few years).


As I have said, however, the real problem lies in the credit issues you CANNOT avoid.


When your credit score effects your ability to get a job, there is something VERY VERY wrong with the system.


You can tell absolutely NOTHING about someone based on their credit score and credit history. Some people scam the credit agencies purposely and others fall into bad times through no fault of their own. Unfortunately, most people with credit problems aren't there by any true fault of their own.


The credit system is DESIGNED to hurt the middle and lower classes. It's as plain and simple as that.

Jasn

Credit is for investing, not spending

Originally posted by apc
REJECT THE BRAINWASHING! YOU DO NOT NEED CREDIT!

Hear, hear!

You're quite right, at least as far as consumer credit goes.

I have never taken out a loan I do not already have funds on hand (or owing me) to settle. To anyone naive enough to ask 'well, why take out a loan then?', I recommend a closer study of the financial system.

I find it very hard to feel any sympathy for the OP. He appears to have extended himself beyond his financial capacity, succumbing all too easily to the lures dangled before him by various lenders and vendors. Now he is seeking to place the blame for his own irresponsibility on others. The only excuse one can possibly make for such behaviour is that it is all too common.

As for Rockpuck, who thinks America is so expensive to live in that he has to live his entire life on credit, the poor fellow should try living somewhere else for a change and see how that works instead. I'm sure prices vary in different states and cities, but on the whole America is not a particularly expensive place to live in. It is Number 13 on the list in absolute dollar terms, but in PPP (purchasing-power-parity) terms it is much lower. Try coming and living in my third world country for a few months, dear Rockpuck, earning the median wage here for the job you currently do over there, and discover what real financial pressure is.

The general public never gets this however often it is told, but here goes for the umpteenth time: there is only one legitimate reason to seek credit and that is to use the money to make more money. Only a fool eats, drinks, drives, wears or plays with his credit.

[edit on 22-10-2007 by Astyanax]

Just to include a few facts on credit debt. I'm actually willing to bet that these facts are actually very very conservative. I would put one of my two "boys" on the line that these stats are low. Even if they are dead on, it proves my point.

It is estimated that, on average, 20% of Americans have “maxed out” their credit cards.

bullet About 25% of adults in the United States have a history of credit problems.

bullet Americans’ average credit card debt is $8400 per household.

bullet Roughly 24% of personal expenditures in the United States are made using bank credit cards, retail cards, and debit cards.

bullet In the first quarter of 2002, total credit debt was $660 billion. Total credit card debt was approximately $60 billion.

bullet Approximately 185 million American consumers have at least one credit card.

bullet Of those 185 million consumers with credit cards, 1.3 million credit card holders declared bankruptcy in 2002.

bullet Americans pay, on average, an 18.9% interest rate on credit cards.

bullet The average household pays $83.33 in credit card interest per month.

bullet On average, the typical credit card purchase is 112% higher than if using cash.

bullet More than 40% of American families spend more than they earn. (Federal Reserve).

bullet As of 1995, 92% of American family disposable income is spent on paying debts, up from 65% in 1975. (Federal Reserve)

bullet An $8,000 debt, at a rate of 18% interest, will take over 25 years to pay off and cost more than $24,000 in the long run.

Credit Card Debt Statistics



Jasn

reply to post by Astyanax


1. I never asked anyone to feel sorry for me.

2. I have NEVER lived beyond my means. I lost my job at a time when jobs were few and far between in my area and THAT lead to my problems.

3. Apparently you have not read that you actually MUST HAVE credit here in order to get such necessities as a home, electricity and a vehicle to get to and from work. (No, there is no public transportation in my town)



If you have no credit, you absolutely cannot buy a home UNLESS you have the cash to pay for it. You can't even RENT a home/apartment without the required credit score.

A car? Sure, you can get one, IF you have the 25% (in some cases more/less) down payment that's required.

I'm not sure about you, but I do not have an extra 3 to 5 thousand dollars lying around for down payments if needed. I do have kids and a wife that I must support and ensure that they have what they need to have to live.



Listen, I don't ask much out of people that reply to my threads. The only thing I do ask is that you actually READ before responding. If you had, you would not have read anything that should have lead you to deduce that I lived beyond my means. If anything, I was VERY conservative with my credit and did everything within my power to care for it for almost half a decade before 3 months of hard times that I COULD NOT CONTROL put a hurting on me.

Not that it matters, but the one big charge I did place on my card was a NECESSITY and NOT a luxury item. Who knew my job would be gone directly after the fact? For the most part, my entire balance was paid off every single month. I got caught in a bad situation, like MOST Americans with credit problems.

Three short months of my life that I haven't been able to recover from in YEARS. In retrospect, had I filed bankruptcy, my credit would actually be BETTER now.

Anytime you can build and maintain credit in almost 5 years, only to have it almost destroyed in 3 months.....there is something wrong with the system.

Just because everybody does it, that doesn't make it right

Originally posted by SimiusDei
Just to include a few facts on credit debt.

Hair-raising. Thrift was once a virtue prized among Americans. Now, it seems, they're falling over one another to get themselves in hock.

One of the most moronic ideas I have ever heard is the so-called 'zero net worth concept'. It can work -- though it's still risky -- for someone with a huge income and a highly diversified investment portfolio. But for the average worker bee in the post-industrial hive, it's financial suicide. You'd think anyone could see that -- yet you hear chumps who can't interpret a balance sheet talking about 'consolidating their liabilities' and 'attaining zero net worth'. Then, when the bottom falls out of their world, they start pointing fingers at the people who lent them money they couldn't afford to borrow.

Still, live and learn, eh?

Simius, your figures are incredibly low like you said.

$8,400 per household credit debt? no way jose.. try $8,400 average credit debt per person in credit debt.

As to the one person who says the only reason to seek credit is to use it to make more money, and if you do otherwise you're a fool, thanks alot, you side-swipe insulted a good portion of the community here at ATS with that one.

We must all be fools according to you, simple as that.

But I know I'm not a fool, I should've found a more humble, less expensive existence earlier in life, but other than that, my credit problem was the result of a broken promise by a parent. Not blaming, just saying, I shouldn't have trusted my own mother who brought me into this world and sustained me with everything ive ever had since I was born I guess. Because in doing so, I was a fool!

The credit system is a creation of the same parasites that run the banks of the world. It's all a form of slavery, predominantly mental. Whether you're owned by a large corporation or you run your own business you are still giving the masters a substantial amount of your production in the form of taxes, recycling of your earnings, and the exploitation of your labor.

Originally posted by Astyanax
You'd think anyone could see that -- yet you hear chumps who can't interpret a balance sheet talking about 'consolidating their liabilities' and 'attaining zero net worth'. Then, when the bottom falls out of their world, they start pointing fingers at the people who lent them money they couldn't afford to borrow.

Still, live and learn, eh?

Man, first you say you live in a third world country, and now you talk like this. First of all, by your writing ability you are obviously educated, and your knowledge on investments is noted. Therefore, in your third world country, you must be considered very fortunate, wealthy, maybe even rich. You have internet access, that alone is a luxury for some.

But just because I can't interpret a balance sheet it doesnt make me a chump. In reality I can interpret a balance sheet, but its the point of the matter. You are coming off very bourgeois, very holier than thou. You also come off as someone who takes advantage of other people's lower levels of intelligence in regards to market investments, stocks, and other ways of attaining money. In fact, without all those poor chumps who cant read a balance sheet, you probably wouldn't be nearly as wealthy as you may be, nor would many other wealthy investors.

Excuse me for saying this but, your words make you sound like a typical Capitalist Pig. And all of us fools and chumps know that capitalists pigs can't exist without the poor people to step on and take advantage of. So consider yourself lucky if you'd like, after you die your reality may not be as nice as it was here on good ole Earth.

reply to post by wingman77


Indeed.

See a few of my past threads in regards to the Federal Reserve Mafia to see exactly how I feel about those piles of "excrement".


Jasn

reply to post by runetang


Salute!


I wish I could pass an applause on to you for that. So so true.


Jasn

Originally posted by SimiusDei
1. I never asked anyone to feel sorry for me.

I wasn't suggesting you were. I understand how you must feel when you read a hard-nosed post like mine; the fact is that, difficult as I confess it is, I do feel sympathy for you. Yes, you should have thought harder before you got yourself into debt, but you were only doing what you saw most of your friends and neighbours do. You'll know better the next time.

2. I have NEVER lived beyond my means.

You bought a house on loan or mortgage anticipating lifetime employment?

You are unwilling to move from that house, or give up your car (rather than sell it, pay off your car loan and buy a cheaper one with the balance). You are unwilling to live according to your present income. So it is simply untrue to claim that you do not live beyond your means. If you have no income, then you have no means; and you must adjust your life accordingly. You won't be the first in the world to have done this and you won't be the last. You'll survive.

I, too, have been poor. Not for long, I must admit; but then, the fact that I had no debts in my time of poverty certainly helped make that time shorter. I sincerely recommend that you do the same by clearing what debts you have.

3. Apparently you have not read that you actually MUST HAVE credit here in order to get such necessities as a home, electricity and a vehicle to get to and from work. (No, there is no public transportation in my town)

If that is the case, the law of the land needs to be changed. And judging from the number of indebted voters suggested by your last post, I should imagine that changing the law was far from impossible.

If you have no credit, you absolutely cannot buy a home UNLESS you have the cash to pay for it. You can't even RENT a home/apartment without the required credit score.

apc has already dealt with it and the other items in your OP list.

I do ask is that you actually READ before responding. If you had, you would not have read anything that should have lead you to deduce that I lived beyond my means.

As you will see from the above, I have read the post, but I disagree with your claim not to have lived beyond your means.

[edit on 22-10-2007 by Astyanax]

Oink!

Originally posted by SimiusDei
reply to post by runetang
I wish I could pass an applause on to you for that. So so true.

You could give him a star.

I am not offended. Yes, runetang, you describe my circumstances fairly well, though I am not a fat cat (even by the standards of my poor country) and my living is primarily earned from things I write.

As for the accusation that I am a capitalist, it is one I am proud to admit to. I am indeed a capitalist in thought, word and deed. What of it?

All encounters between human beings must end with a profit -- not necessarily a financial profit -- accruing to one or both parties. Economics is not a zero-sum game, so the fact that there are winners does not automatically imply that there will be losers. Human nature, on the other hand, practically guarantees it.

I have my own moral standards and my own ideas about what constitutes exploitation and what does not. Indentured plantation labourers, miners in eternal debt to the company store -- that's exploitation. Greedy consumers who cannot deny themselves the most luxurious 'lifestyles' their credit ratings (as opposed to their incomes) will afford are not, in my view, victims of exploitation.

Caveat emptor is an old rule, my friend. If people choose to ignore it, it's their funeral.

reply to post by Astyanax


You have read the thread, yet you missed where I said that I did indeed pay off my vehicle and home when the chance arose? I also mentioned that I did pay off my debt.

I have NEVER lived beyond my means except where necessity dictated that I must.

Judging by your logic in your previous replies. Please, tell me how one SHOULD live.


You say that buying a house "on loan" is a choice and not a necessity.

Please, tell me. How do you come to this conclusion?

I'm not sure where you live, but does the average citizen of your region have the 165,000 dollars needed for the cash cost of an average home?

What about the 24,000 dollar cash cost of the average car?


You say that the ONLY reason to use credit is to make more money. That being the case, please explain to me what one is to do when credit is required to even RENT a home, much less buy one.

Should everyone remain homeless? Oh wait, we can't. If we were to, we risk the threat of death from other transients or almost certain jail time.


In Amerika, you absolutely MUST have a good credit score to be approved for the following (which is a SHORT list that could easily be tripled) if you do not have the full cash amount to pay for them.

Renting a home.
Buying a home.
Renting a car.
Buying a car.
Getting electricity in your home.
Getting water in your home. (in some areas, not all)
Getting gas in your home, if your home requires it.
Getting a telephone in your home.
Getting a cell phone. (some jobs REQUIRE their employees to have one that is active at all times)
Getting some jobs. (the number that require credit checks is increasing)


In addition to that. There are actually a good number of occasional necessities that require you to have a valid credit card. The most common are:

Getting a hotel room.
Getting a rental car.


If you wouldn't mind, please explain to me how us foolish American's can get around these credit requirements short of being homeless, jobless, moving to another country or DEAD.


Thanks,
Jasn

Simius, your honest passion driven opening statement says it all.

We are slaves to debt.

Pay off your loans, even if it means selling your house and renting.

Down scale your car so your not making payments.

Take your money out of the bank, and close your accounts.

Cut up your credit cards.

Pay with cash. Barter more.

You should have seen the looks on their faces the other day when I took an $8000 check in to cash it. They fumbled and bumbled, and had to open the vault, and wanted to give me a cashiers check, which I refused. Don't let the banks intimidate you.

These small steps would dump real money back into the economy, and stabalize it, bringing the dollar back to the value it should be.

But, there will always be those who need to be better than the Jones down the street, won't there?



[edit on 22-10-2007 by stompk]

reply to post by stompk


HAHAHAHAHH the irony in your reply made me honestly laugh out loud.

My last name is Jones hahahaha.


Anyhow,

you are correct in your statements. The problem, as I have said several times already, is the shear amount of necessities in the capitalists' Amerika that REQUIRE a good credit score.

I would absolutely LOVE to live in a society that was 100% cash based. Unfortunately, the Federal Reserve SCUM has successfully made sure that it is not possible unless you are RICH. What's even more sad is, they have done it in just under 80 years.

Our entire economic system is based on credit. Hell, even the federal governments BORROWS the money that it prints at interest. Nevermind that the money has absolutely ZERO backing. They are, in reality, using our tax dollars to pay interest on nothing but paper.

The FED has crippled the middle and lower classes while making damn sure they themselves get even more rich by the second.


It's disgusting. The chairs of the Federal Reserve Board should be hanged, drawn and quartered for the crimes they have committed against the backbone of our society.

Sadly, Mr. Third World was right about one thing. The PEOPLE of this country DO need to band together and take the power back.


Jasn

The solution is simple, pay your bills, And just because you have the money to buy something, doesn't mean you can afford to buy it, If you don't have the money right there and then, you don't have the money i don't care if you can pay it off, anyone can pay something off given enough time, but in the process of paying it off your also paying a crap load of interest.. interest i might add which could be going into your savings/pocket rather then the pockets of the elites who enslave you with their "credit"

You don't need the latest greatest car, you don't need to latest greatest name brand clothing, you don't need the big screen TV, or the ultimate dvd collection, If you can physically come up with the cash for these items that instant, whatever buy what ya want, but if you cant, then don't buy it....

Go ahead miss a few payments, let them put liens on the homes you live in, take away everything you worked for, oh wait, you didn't did you, you used credit...


Its not the Credit thats the problem, It's dumb people.

Wow, "great" topic -- I know people that are in the red hole tens of thousands of dollars since having to pay for college on plastic and they're dumb enough to try to purchase homes -- 'adjustable' rates are going to be the slow death kneel of American home-'owners' -- subprime mortgage fallout.... cannot file for personal bankruptcy anymore, Druggie Jr and Co changed the law in 2005.

So, finally in the NYT business page this morning, there's a cover story about mortgages, how the loss doesn't register until the home is resold post-foreclosure. This is why the stock markets hasn't taken a sick hit yet -- most of these American/Brit banks have yet to totally tally losses from those seeking to re-locate.

I also read, to tie into this thread's title more -- 1 million Brits have paid for mortgage in last year w/ plastic! This is going to get bad sooner or later -- maybe the end of 2008/start of 2009 the latest.

A reader replies

Originally posted by SimiusDei
You have read the thread, yet you missed where I said that I did indeed pay off my vehicle and home when the chance arose? I also mentioned that I did pay off my debt.

Gosh, I'm not looking very good here, am I?

Yes indeed, I do admit to having missed those statements of yours. Perhaps you can help me find them? You see, I just went back and read all your posts and guess what -- I missed them again. Though you do add up your various loan payments in one post. Perhaps that's the one you're referring to?

Anyway, freeing yourself from debt is really all about getting rid of the source of the liability. Paying off the debt at enormous personal sacrifice is still a refusal to live within one's means.

Judging by your logic in your previous replies. Please, tell me how one SHOULD live.

Unnecessary; you have already found the magic formula. Look:

Originally posted by Simius Dei
No more credit cards for me and I will avoid credit at all costs (as I have done for the last few years).

* * *

I'm not sure where you live, but does the average citizen of your region have the 165,000 dollars needed for the cash cost of an average home?

We rent, or lease, until we can afford to buy. Credit is much harder to obtain here than it is in America. People who have lived in both countries all agree that this is so. Advertisements in American media that get seen over here also bear this out.

What about the 24,000 dollar cash cost of the average car?

Cars cost more in my country than they do in America because of punitive import duties. Fuel costs roughly US$4.50 a gallon. Very few people own cars; the vast majority must rely on public transport. Those of us who do drive are either rolling in it, or else have either (1) leased our cars, (2) obtained the use of company cars as part of our employment package or (3) purchased secondhand.

You say that the ONLY reason to use credit is to make more money. That being the case, please explain to me what one is to do when credit is required to even RENT a home, much less buy one.

I find this a little hard to believe, but if it were the case I should move elsewhere. To another country, if necessary. I've done that.

Please explain to me how us foolish American's can get around these credit requirements short of being homeless, jobless, moving to another country or DEAD.

Pay cash on the nail. Live within your means. Agitate to repeal unfair laws or to get protective legislation for consumers. Don't hold your breath.