The Need For An Eternal Creator--Odds Are-->Extremley Likely!

Does a Creator (or God) exist? Many wonder and it seems like you can't prove it physically, but how about mathematically?

I found this because I am interested in humanity and life's true origins, and if you read below, the odds that life and everything right to make a universe and sustain it is highly improbable.

So unlikely, that scientists can't really explain it, because they don't really know how a singularity can just expand without a reason.

Of course there is a cause and effect to everything in the universe -- so the question is: Did the universe expand by some random quantum event or was it made by an intelligent Creator seeking seeking expression and companions (individuals who have a separate consciousnesses and free will [spirits])?

Late in the 20th century, scientists and mathematicians began to apply mathematics to these kinds of lists. The problem is that when you have a large number of independent variables and each of them has a finite probability, the total probability becomes astronomical. If you draw a card from a deck of cards once, the odds of getting an ace of spades is one in 52. The odds of drawing an ace of spades twice in a row back-to-back is one in 2,704 (1/52 x 1/52). The odds of doing it four times in a row is one in 7,311,616. This same technique has to be applied to all of the variables necessary to produce an atom, a planet, life, etc., if the calculation is done on a purely chance basis. The probability figures come up with numbers like one chance in ten to the 800th power!

From:

www.doesgodexist.org...






By the way, I have read many of Edgar Cayce's reading and quotes and read articles on www.near-death.com... so I think there is a very good possibility that God exists and he is Light and Love (sounds corny) but it holds as a fact in my opinion.

I’m sorry but I must disagree about the statistical probability of a god.
en.wikipedia.org...

As for the cause argument if god caused the universe what caused god?

The problem with the mathematical calculations of odds is that they don't take into account "beginner's luck." That is, they don't say anything about the sequence of tests that make up the probabilities. For instance in this case...

If you draw a card from a deck of cards once, the odds of getting an ace of spades is one in 52. The odds of drawing an ace of spades twice in a row back-to-back is one in 2,704 (1/52 x 1/52). The odds of doing it four times in a row is one in 7,311,616.

... it won't necessarily take 7,311,616 attempts to draw the ace of spades four times in a row from a randomized deck. It may only take four attempts! Understand? In fact, it could happen at any four sequential picks from the 7,311,616. On the other hand, it might take 14,623,232 attempts, and then it might happen twice in a row. The odds would be the same.

And this doesn't even address the notion of the assumption of temporalinear causality (that time only flows in one direction in this case). There's some evidence to suggest that consciousness is not limited to strict cause and effect actions as we understand them, and that our own consciousness may be "creating" the universe both backwards and forwards in time as a result of our observations. You can see where this would eliminate the need for a creator God.

You gotta watch your hidden assumptions in arguments like these.

[edit on 18-10-2007 by Nohup]

Well, since there was a beginning of time/space (the universe) back 13.7 billion years ago, something we yet don't know or understand made it.

I've never read the Bible, and don't happen to read it any time soon, but I still think that before the physical world, there might of been a world of just Thought, or One consciousness being, timeless, space less, and full of infinite potential. it might sound crazy to some, but I believe truth to be stranger than fiction.

Could the universe's birth be a mere coincidence: Yes, but such 'beginners luck' coincidence just seems highly unlikely and something outside of time and space created the known universe we see today IS a possibility.

Double post.

[edit on 10/18/2007 by gravytrain]

reply to post by Monsterenergy791


Have you ever thought that maybe the universe never had a beginning? I believe that it goes through endless cycles of creation and destruction. And we can only see as far back as the last creation. I believe this is most likely, because everything we see is formed then is destroyed eventually. So therefore the universe probably does the same thing. Perhaps there are many universes. And infinite number of universes? Beings are born, they live, then they inevitably die. Perhaps there are an infinite number of beings?

We humans have a need to see things as having a beginning and an end. Because we ourselves have a beginning and an end. Infinity is difficult for us to grasp. But i think that it is most likely that the universe goes through cycles. The buddhist also believe this. And so do the hindu's. I believe the bible and koran are the only two religious books that proclaim that god created everything, and does not speak of anything before this. Read the Bhagavad Gita. Lots of interesting things in there pertaining to this discussion.

Heres a quote from the Gita-- "From the earth up to the realm of Brahma, the worlds undergo repeated cycles, Having come to me however, O kaunteya, one does not find repeated birth. Those who know of Brahma's day, having the duration of a thousand ages, And of his night, ending after a thousand ages, are persons who know what is day and what is night. All manifestations arise from the unmanifest with the coming of the day (of brahma). With the coming of the night (of brahma) they are absorbed, then and there, in that which is called the unmanifest."

Ahh interesting isnt it? I love the Gita. It is full of explanation. I recommend it to ANYONE of ANY faith or race regardless.

Wake up.

reply to post by Monsterenergy791


From the OP's link:

The problem is that, as mankind has come to understand the processes seen in nature, we realize that there are many parameters that are necessary for things to exist as we see them.

The funny thing about this quote is that, we have absolutely no idea how many forms life can take and where it can and cannot exist. Life on this planet evolved into a life form that thrives upon this planets conditions. It is completely probable that life evolved on other planets according to the conditions on those planets. That is the main problem with most scientists who look for life elsewhere in the galaxy/universe. They assume, from what they've been taught over the years, that life can only exist in the forms we observe, they can only breath oxygen, only exist in "temperate" climates, etc. What about bacteria that exist on the ocean floor along volcanic vents?

As for a "formula" to prove God's existence. That is preposterous. As a previous poster said, if God created us, who created God. He was eternal? Well, as another poster said, what if the universe were eternal, that would effectively negate God as it is the same argument for the existence of both. If the universe were eternal, when would God have created it?

-Warlo

Originally posted by Monsterenergy791
Well, since there was a beginning of time/space (the universe) back 13.7 billion years ago, something we yet don't know or understand made it.

What makes you think that spacetime had some kind of beginning? The Big Bang is an interesting theory with some good data to support it, but that doesn't mean it's right. I mean, I find it interesting that you would embrace this particular scientific theory because it goes along with what you believe, but also do something very un-scientific and make an assumption not implied by any of the data -- that something "created" it. It's an interesting bit of picking and choosing.

That "13.7 billion years" figure is interesting, too. I remember not too long ago when it used to be 7 billion years. Did the age of the universe somehow nearly double in the last few decades? No, we got better data, and we're interpreting it differently. I will go out on a limb and say that over the next 100 years or so, the age of the universe will double again.

Again, I think it's easy to get the mistaken notion that somehow the universe had to have a "beginning." We're animals that are used to looking very hard for cause and effect, because that's how we learned to stay alive all these years as we evolved. A twig snaps behind us, we know it's caused by a tiger ready to pounce, cause-effect, we run away.

But when we're talking about the universe, a place where time is related to speed, and space loops back on itself in such a way that the farther OUT you go, the closer to the CENTER you get, there may never have been (or will be) a "beginning," as we understand it in our little monkey minds. And if you don't have a beginning, the whole notion of something beginning the beginning makes even less logical sense. It's so hard for us to comprehend and discuss, because even our language has a built-in bias toward that cause-effect way of perceiving the world.


[edit on 19-10-2007 by Nohup]

reply to post by gravytrain


But, a system of any sort must have a beginning!

Originally posted by seraph07
But, a system of any sort must have a beginning!

Why is that? Can you elaborate? There's no evidence to suggest that the universe ever had a beginning or will have an end, particularly because time and distance are different ways of looking at the same thing.

Personally, I think the existence of the universe has something to do with all the living things in it observing it and imagining it. Without an observer, we can't be sure a quantum wave function will collapse out of virtuality. So we've kind of bootstrapped ourselves into the middle of time, and we're in the process of creating it both "forwards" and "backwards" into infinity.

Sort of like this, except in many more intertwining dimensions too complicated to be illustrated here:




[edit on 19-10-2007 by Nohup]

I think that the physical universe itself to have a beginning, thus an age, but at the highest dimension, there is no time so everything is happening at the present, there is no past or future, but an eternal 'now'.

reply to post by Monsterenergy791


So are you still writing that post “now” or did you write it earlier? If the universe is only now how can I respond to some thing that happened earlier, for earlier dose not exist.

reply to post by Mr Mxyztplk


I can relate to your confusion about this supposed theory of an eternal present, but you have to consider that at a higher dimension, we could pick any point in time and go there, just like in the 3rd dimension we can pick any space/place to go. Also, the 10th dimension (from what I have heard about), is just a point, in which all possibilities in all universes all taking place in all possible time frames. So it's basically a singularity where there really is no time, but everything is happening at the same place/time ('now'), so at the highest dimension of reality, there is eternity and time only seems to be an illusion at lower dimensions.

addressing the issue for probability for life to arise in a universe..
having the right strength in the the strong, weak, gravity and electromagnetic forces seems astronomically unlikely. god must of chose these strengths and thats why we are here right? the way i see it is that if there is infinite amount of universes (multi-verse theory) this can be overcome. if there is infinite amount of universes each will the different values of these strength there will be universes which can support life.

thats the way ive always seen this probability overcome.

reply to post by cheeser


You do make a good point, but I've also thought about the multi-verse theory and if there is life, then we would be aware of our existence so we would think that the odds are extremely high but they wouldn't be if there was an infinit amount of universes. So do we have a purpose? Companionship, love, concisenesses, and free will, they don't mean a thing and do they exist after we are dead?

I think it could, since our personality and consciousness isn't physical and can explore dimensions higher than the one we know of today.
I'm leading into reincarnation and other metaphysical topics, I'll save that for another thread.

Ever read the book Be Here Now by Ram Dass. a reply to: Monsterenergy791

a reply to: Monsterenergy791

I know for a fact there is an omniscient force because I have experienced it, I know that time is not linear because I have seen things before they have came to pass, intrinsic things, like knowing the outcome of a sports game because I've noticed synchronicities before hand that have made me to conclude certain things, amongst many other things, seems to be to do with concentration on the subject then being sensitive to what's happening around, but other times it's like the energy put into the task of imagination can be the reason for the event transpiring, I have experiences that say both are true,
There are books for honing your psi abilities, but you have to be a sensitive and you must not be to indoctrinated into the illusion

For example if you support a political party you are conditioned and controlled already

Responding to a 15 year old thread, whose OP hasn’t been active for 8 years, probably won’t get you a response.

a reply to: Ohanka

Thanks, I'm new

Thanks for the observation. I joined last week.a reply to: Ohanka