Hubris

Humility is a Christian virtue.

I know for myself that I feel everybody in here is way greater than me and better.

Im a lazy man who still sins and is just terrible. So no matter how bad I may see someone in this forum, they are still lightyears better than me.

and I truly honesty believe this. God has removed just about all my selflove and pride.

I think the saints said there are acouple of things a soul can run on.


1. Pride. always thinking of own goodness and putting yourself over everybody.

2. real grace. real feeling mixed with humility.

3. evil. a complete deprevation of grace and love.


So for the record. Everybody in here is greater than me.

peace.

Originally posted by JesusisTruth
Humility is a Christian virtue.

I know for myself that I feel everybody in here is way greater than me and better.

we aren't talking about humility, we're talking about hubris.

Im a lazy man who still sins and is just terrible. So no matter how bad I may see someone in this forum, they are still lightyears better than me.

and I truly honesty believe this. God has removed just about all my selflove and pride.

I think the saints said there are acouple of things a soul can run on.


1. Pride. always thinking of own goodness and putting yourself over everybody.

2. real grace. real feeling mixed with humility.

3. evil. a complete deprevation of grace and love.


So for the record. Everybody in here is greater than me.

peace.

alright... you're insanely off topic.

how about this, address the topic.

do you admit that you COULD be wrong?

Originally posted by depth om
The one thing I'm saying I hold as certain is that Christ came as the Son of God, died and rose again, to show mankind the way to surpass death and return to the source.

but do you accept the POSSIBILITY that you are wrong? the HIGHLY PROBABLY possibility

My faith and belief grows stronger by and through God, not by challenging my belief in him. Not by testing God and not by turning away from God.

...admitting that you could be wrong isn't doubting anything, it's saying "i'm human, and not perfect"
in essence, it's an exercise in humility.

I am a Christian, I will behave as one.

then you shall continue with the hubris

Believers choose to believe because of some spiritual experience. Sometimes they can be explained through science, other times they cannot.

[edit on 2-10-2007 by wildcat]

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul

but religion tends to be one of these things where nobody ever thinks "i could be wrong" or "we could ALL be wrong"

True

When you believe in god though, it's very hard to have faith while thinking you could be wrong and still believe.

A good example of hubris is what I call "assumed consensus". This is an automatic assumption that everyone one else has the same opinion or beliefs that you do.

Growing up in the southern USA, I saw this often. It was assumed that everyone was a Christian. It was not, "Do you go to Church?", but "Which Church do you go to?". There is a subtle but important difference that says much about the person that just asked the question.

That difference is Hubris, an almost unconscious arrogance that you will find at the core of any religion which holds to the belief that their system is the only correct one, or even that it's correct at all.

Due to this hubris and the hypocrisy that must eventually accompany it, I tend to divide humans into two groups, those that exhibit this hubris, and those who are intellectually and spiritually honest enough to admit that we don't really know what the real deal is.

It's not that I hate or even dislike those who adhere to organized mainstream religion, it's just that I don't trust them to make rational decisions because I can tell by their beliefs that they have already made a really big irrational one.

Actually, I probably shouldn't say that. It may be closer to the truth to say that most people may not even think that deeply about what they believe having been indoctrinated and programmed from birth with fear response mechanism (Fear of Hell/Judgement) in place to discourage doubt and questioning. Perhaps many are not capable of critical thinking and self-analysis anymore. Maybe some of them are so locked into supporting their own delusion and "known" version of reality that they must reject anything that might challange it out of hand without considering the validity of an opposing view at all.

I don't know about the rest of you, but I find that kind of creepy.

Hubris. Isn't that one of the Christian 7 Deadly Sins? Ironic then that every Church that claims to possesses the absolute truth is guilty of it.

I couldn't agree more with you

Could I be wrong.

I don't believe so because not only of the miracles ive seen, but the countless saints miracles ive heard about.

the Catholic church has an uninterupted countless cases of miracles from its berth until now.

To canonize a saint, the only reason the popes did this, was because you have to have atleast (3) major miracles during their life.

They take very seriously who they canonize a saint, some more major saints like st Gemma, who sweat blood and had stigmata are the more incredible type.


Now, its just too much proof. Not only did Jesus the only one to claim to be the messhia that was to come of the OT.

But he worked miracles, and raised the dead, and stopped the winds in the storm he was so powerful.

Now I myself have seen miracles. Ive posted acouple of little ones on here, not even major ones. I havent even posted the time ive seen cancer gone by prayer alone. Nor many other things ive seen and my family.


I made a post also about the literal Trinity being implanted on our bodies. We have 3 points in the shape of a triangle. They all represent something and criss cross like a cross.

If this is true, which if you read that post that I made, than you will probably realize that its pretty amazing, its not a coincidence.


Than all these miracles, and so on.

I do not believe Christ is wrong. Even if I wanted to not believe in him (considering what ive seen), I could not deny him.



Now, having said that. All people in other faiths are souls of God and deserve to be respected as humans.


" off topic "

madness, I though hubris is pride?

peace.

Originally posted by JesusisTruth

Could I be wrong.

I don't believe so because not only of the miracles ive seen, but the countless saints miracles ive heard about.

so there isn't a possibility that the saints' miracles weren't miracles?
or the possibility that the miracles you experienced weren't actually miracles?
or the possibility that all of the above miracles were actually the product of a different god?

the Catholic church has an uninterupted countless cases of miracles from its berth until now.

none that it can prove.

To canonize a saint, the only reason the popes did this, was because you have to have atleast (3) major miracles during their life.

yet kids who died within the myth of "jews kill christian children to drink their blood during passover" are canonized saints....
fishy fishy.

They take very seriously who they canonize a saint, some more major saints like st Gemma, who sweat blood and had stigmata are the more incredible type.

ok... the sweating blood thing i can believe happened... because it happened to me once. it's not a miracle, just an extreme reaction to stress

Now, its just too much proof. Not only did Jesus the only one to claim to be the messhia that was to come of the OT.

...you're severely misinformed. many others claimed to be the messiah. one of the was appolonius of tiana (spelling may be off), he came before jesus and, according to his followers, he cured the sick, walked on water, turned water into wine, cast out demons, and walked through walls

But he worked miracles, and raised the dead, and stopped the winds in the storm he was so powerful.

and, of course, there's no evidence of this, no proof

Now I myself have seen miracles. Ive posted acouple of little ones on here, not even major ones. I havent even posted the time ive seen cancer gone by prayer alone. Nor many other things ive seen and my family.

start a thread, prove that they're miracles, and i'll believe.

I made a post also about the literal Trinity being implanted on our bodies. We have 3 points in the shape of a triangle. They all represent something and criss cross like a cross.

you found triangular symmetry in the human body...

If this is true, which if you read that post that I made, than you will probably realize that its pretty amazing, its not a coincidence.

MM destroyed your argument that it's amazing and not coincidence.

Than all these miracles, and so on.

I do not believe Christ is wrong. Even if I wanted to not believe in him (considering what ive seen), I could not deny him.

hubris.

Now, having said that. All people in other faiths are souls of God and deserve to be respected as humans.

yet they're going to hell?
what of those with NO faith?

" off topic "

madness, I though hubris is pride?

hubris is overbearing pride and/or arrogance
you fit in that. you're arrogantly assuming something here.

Originally posted by Ambient Sound
A good example of hubris is what I call "assumed consensus". This is an automatic assumption that everyone one else has the same opinion or beliefs that you do.

Growing up in the southern USA, I saw this often. It was assumed that everyone was a Christian. It was not, "Do you go to Church?", but "Which Church do you go to?". There is a subtle but important difference that says much about the person that just asked the question.

We've got the same problem in the midwest. Another thing I noticed is that even children reciprocate their parents hubris in the assumption of consensus. 'tis sad that they are brainwashed that young.

Madness,

We are of opposite polarity. I hold this, you hold that. I've presented my views, not having pressured you into declaring any possibility of sorts. Let my faith be.

" you fit in that "

so do you. how many qoutes to I have to pull up from you?

Im worthless without God. Im not good, I dont know what it is, and everybody is greater than me.

" they are going to hell "

I didnt say that madness. I believe all who are sincere will convert. I believe this and I will pray for those in those faiths.

I dont want a single soul in hell, not by my heart, but by Gods grace.


I remember years ago how lowsy I was. without his grace I would watch someone die on the news.

and just flick the channel without a thought of compassion for that person.

during 9/11, while the buildings were being attacked, I wanted to play video games with a freind.


But now, with his grace my soul is different.

When I seen someone in a car crash on the news, I actually cried and said to Jesus, (please) keep him alive for me.

Gods grace does thid, since he created compassion, or fealings or a heart.

But ignorant people who dont understand anything blame God for everything and think they are better than him (if) he existed to them.


The bottom line madness, is that God cares for souls more than you can grasp.


peace.

Humans truly are creatures of simutaneous duality.
Jesusistruth effortlessly shows us the hubris of religion, yet also a lack of self-pride. Jesusistruth you claim that you are worthless without god. How can you be so hard on yourself? Do you have to have some "all powerful" being give your life meaning? Can't you make your life meaningful without someone giving you the 'go ahead'?

Originally posted by depth om
We are of opposite polarity. I hold this, you hold that. I've presented my views, not having pressured you into declaring any possibility of sorts. Let my faith be.

ah, but i hold no specific view, i have a lack of view on the issue>
and i'll start letting your faith be when the very concept of faith stops getting the undue respect it currently receives.

Originally posted by JesusisTruth

" you fit in that "

so do you. how many qoutes to I have to pull up from you?

any. show me a place where i've said that god is impossible or where i've said i believe there is no god.

i've actually stated that god could very well be possible, but i don't believe in it due to a lack of evidence.

i admit, i could be wrong.

Im worthless without God. Im not good, I dont know what it is, and everybody is greater than me.

no, you're wrong here.
i'm quite sure serial killers and sociopaths are lesser than you.

" they are going to hell "

I didnt say that madness. I believe all who are sincere will convert. I believe this and I will pray for those in those faiths.

that's even more hubris. those that are good still need to convert to get where you'll be going.

I dont want a single soul in hell, not by my heart, but by Gods grace.

yet you're so quick to put anyone who won't convert there...

But ignorant people who dont understand anything blame God for everything and think they are better than him (if) he existed to them.

wow, you're so quick to label others ignorant because they don't share your same beliefs.

The bottom line madness, is that God cares for souls more than you can grasp.

the bottom line is that i don't see any proof of the being's existence.

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul

Originally posted by depth om
We are of opposite polarity. I hold this, you hold that. I've presented my views, not having pressured you into declaring any possibility of sorts. Let my faith be.

ah, but i hold no specific view, i have a lack of view on the issue>
and i'll start letting your faith be when the very concept of faith stops getting the undue respect it currently receives.

You seem to be far into one side of the fence to be holding a lack of view on the issue. Irrespective of that, however, depth om's faith (for an example) is a pretty unfair target just because you happen to think that the concept of faith recieves undue respect.

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
i've actually stated that god could very well be possible, but i don't believe in it due to a lack of evidence.

Yes, I've seen you say that before. It seems to be a very strange thing to say: "I'll believe if you show me proof". Step back and review that statement. It makes no sense.

As far as the actual topic goes, I'd think it would be remarkably presumptious to limit this 'hubris' to religious people. For example, I think that the post in this thread where MM technically called all religious people unreasonable was pretty arrogant.

That sounds horrible, sorry. As far as I can see, this whole topic is just a chance for the two sides to mudsling the word 'arrogant' around in fancy wrapping. I think your basic question was 'Why do the religious people engage in the arrogance of assuming if a particular atheist is wrong, the religion of the religious person is right?". That question could be applied to so many different topics and debates, it seems odd to limit it to religious people, as opposed to human's in general.

Anyhow, I'd prefer a person who has proper ideas and convictions about his/her beliefs (one who engages in this 'hubris'), than a hypocrite who is just following a belief because its convenient or for appearances, to the extent of popping off a few dimes to the local church, or visiting the church every Christmas. Be what you are!

And about what many people are saying later in this thread, its not arrogance to believe in something or hold an opinion on something (and thereby think that someone with an opposing viewpoint is wrong). Why would anyone believe/have an opinion if they thought it might be wrong? Now if someone's opinion/belief was there in the face of conflicting evidence (something I've not seen here in this thread, or anywhere else as far as it applies to 'religious people' in general), it would be pretty strange, but I'd still not call it hubris.

[edit on 4-10-2007 by babloyi]

Originally posted by babloyi
You seem to be far into one side of the fence to be holding a lack of view on the issue.

i'm on the side of the fence that's asking for evidence... that's all

Irrespective of that, however, depth om's faith (for an example) is a pretty unfair target just because you happen to think that the concept of faith recieves undue respect.

i'm not targeting it just because of the respect, i have other reasons which i constantly outline on ats

however, it DOES receive undue respect. faith is respected just because it's there, not because it's accomplished something. in our society faith is considered grounds for respecting a belief...respect a belief just because someone holds it, that's stupid

Yes, I've seen you say that before. It seems to be a very strange thing to say: "I'll believe if you show me proof". Step back and review that statement. It makes no sense.

no, it makes perfect sense.
i'll believe in an invisible, incorporeal, floating, dragon in your garage if you can prove it.

As far as the actual topic goes, I'd think it would be remarkably presumptious to limit this 'hubris' to religious people. For example, I think that the post in this thread where MM technically called all religious people unreasonable was pretty arrogant.

ok, the quote you must be referring to is this:

MIMS if people really looked at the belief systems through the lens of reason, it wouldn't add up for them, just like it doesn't for us.

...she's not saying that they're unreasonable, but that they're refusing to look at their religion through the lens of reason.

That sounds horrible, sorry.

you're adding your own meaning to the quote

As far as I can see, this whole topic is just a chance for the two sides to mudsling the word 'arrogant' around in fancy wrapping. I think your basic question was 'Why do the religious people engage in the arrogance of assuming if a particular atheist is wrong, the religion of the religious person is right?". That question could be applied to so many different topics and debates, it seems odd to limit it to religious people, as opposed to human's in general.

religion is by far the most common place it's practiced, and it isn't mudslinging, i'm just pointing out something.

religious people view the world in an us vs them way, if someone else's belief is wrong they consider their own right.

Anyhow, I'd prefer a person who has proper ideas and convictions about his/her beliefs (one who engages in this 'hubris'), than a hypocrite who is just following a belief because its convenient or for appearances, to the extent of popping off a few dimes to the local church, or visiting the church every Christmas. Be what you are!

and i'd prefer it if everyone lived life with logic and reason instead of faith and superstition, but we can't get our way.

And about what many people are saying later in this thread, its not arrogance to believe in something or hold an opinion on something (and thereby think that someone with an opposing viewpoint is wrong).

i'm not talking about holding a viewpoint, i'm talking about this situation:

person 1: i'm into christianity
person 2: i'm an atheist
person 1: but what if you're wrong (presents pascal's wager)

really, this whole thread is kind of an argument against pascal's wager, when you think about it.

Why would anyone believe/have an opinion if they thought it might be wrong?

it's called being reasonable and acknowledging that you're fallible

Now if someone's opinion/belief was there in the face of conflicting evidence (something I've not seen here in this thread, or anywhere else as far as it applies to 'religious people' in general), it would be pretty strange, but I'd still not call it hubris.

ah, but i have seen it from people in this thread.

example: JiT doesn't believe in evolution in the face of contradicting evidence.

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
we aren't talking about humility, we're talking about hubris.

madness, what is the antonym of 'hubris?'

Certainly if we speak of one thing, we can refer to its opposite and still remain on-topic?

reply to post by queenannie38


...hmm
ok, i guess we can.
my bad.