Hubris

n
Overbearing pride or presumption; arrogance

^in case anyone was wondering what the definition of that was.

now, why am i talking about hubris?

well, i see a lot of it on this forum, mainly from the religious. there is a massive presumption that i see all the time when the religious discuss things with atheists, that if the atheists are wrong the specific religion of the poster is right.

i'd just like to say this, i'm an atheist, if i'm wrong ANY religion could be right... and all of them could still be wrong. if there was a deity, it could be far beyond the grasp of any religion that exists, has existed, or will exist.

so why do the religious engage in this hubris?

Us vs. Them, MIMS.

In our fast-shrinking world, I think religion is the last gasp of tribal mentality. "Us" is always arrogant about "them."

I'd ponder this more, but I'm trying to figure out the Fifth of November puzzle.

I don't think religion is the last grasp of the tribal mentality; it is just the most prominent one. As much as most theists like to deny, were are still, at the root of our beings, animals. I think they like to drown in their own hubris rather than admit to this.

Excellent thread, madness! Great word!

Yes...tribal mentality!

In the words of Bob Marley:

See they want to be the star
So they fighting tribal war

And in the words of Edward Alexander Crowley:

Every man and every woman is a star.

I AM a beast! And a star!

A pacifist star and an honest beast!

(To the best of my ability, that is! The pacifist part is the easier part!)

And damn proud of it! I'm a chip off the old block!

I used the word hubris in a sentence just now!

Seven Deadly Sins

I will use it whenever appopriate! It is a far better word than 'hypocrite' which, even when true, I find myself reluctant to use because it is an offensive word and is one that tends to cause negative reactions rather than self-inspection.

(which is what my goal would be, in pointing out such an attitude!)

Originally posted by MajorMalfunction
I'd ponder this more, but I'm trying to figure out the Fifth of November puzzle.

Did you click on it? Not that it is ALL THAT more informative...

November 5

reply to post by ShadowedRedemption


yes, we still have plenty of tribalism in our culture. just look at nationalistic tendencies.

but religion tends to be one of these things where nobody ever thinks "i could be wrong" or "we could ALL be wrong"

isn't healthy to know your limits?
wouldn't you be a hypocrite for telling someone that they could be wrong without examining your own personal beliefs?

MIMS if people really looked at the belief systems through the lens of reason, it wouldn't add up for them, just like it doesn't for us.

That's why the hubris. The worst of the arrogance is from people who would probably be completely lost if they lost their beliefs. The hubris is a protective mechanism.

The believers without hubris are the ones that are most tolerant of others beliefs or lack thereof. The ones with the most hubris are the ones that have the worst track record of tolerance.

Amusingly, in Greek mythology, hubris was punished by the Goddess Nemesis.

Also, I find many of the arguments for certain religions (unmoved mover, ID etc), their quantative basis asisde, don't do that good a job of proving any particular deity already known is behind creation. Which is kind of why I like Deists, they don't presume things they cannot know. ID can equally "prove" Christianity, Islam and several other religions, if one accepts the basic premise of the argument. Apart from personal preferance and culture (and the occasional "religious experience", there are usually no reasons for picking Baptism over Hellenic Reconstructionism

Originally posted by Kaliayev
Amusingly, in Greek mythology, hubris was punished by the Goddess Nemesis.

The christian version of Nemesis:



Apart from personal preference and culture (and the occasional "religious experience", there are usually no reasons for picking Baptism over Hellenic Reconstructionism

How about architecture? Ionic columns are so much more interesting than corrugated-metal!

Originally posted by queenannie38
How about architecture? Ionic columns are so much more interesting than corrugated-metal!

indeed, i love that greek architecture.

anyway... it seems like those engaging in this hubris haven't really stepped out to say anything in their own defense.
the people that have posted are those that really don't participate in it.

No doubt blindness and/or denial is a side-effect of hubris. They don't BELIEVE that THEY are arrogant - and above all, they blame the sin of pride on 'Lucifer' or the 'devil,' who is their scapegoat, and so feel they are immune from such a thing. But perhaps it is not at all what they think. The very idea of thinking one's self is totally in the right makes it impossible to consider they could be wrong in thinking they have all the answers.

All that is good and evil is contained within us. A human is capable of infinite hate and infinite love. God doesn't always come down, he comes out. He works through humans. Our bodies and minds are our temples. What we "stand" for, what we believe in, what we follow, is held in esteem in our temples. Our altars of the mind are ones of either God or not God.

We can never hold a constant attitude. Such is the nature of man. Thus, what is exalted in our temples changes. The works of our temple, what we emit, or send outside the altar doors, interact with and change the world, eventually reaching another human beings temple "doors" (5 senses).

The most tribal attitude and action is that of dominance. The desire to lead, apes challenging eachother for dominance. This comes from the ego, which was brought about through the aquiring of the knowledge of good and evil.
You will say "Baseless accusation". What is baseless to yourself, is absolute to myself. I try to find ways to grasp the word and its fractal truths, knowledge made up of smaller bits of knowledge.

The desire to become better is not what I'm talking about, I'm referring to what "better" is.

Better, at it's best, is God's precept. Christ is best. Christ was God as man, the living word. So may we strive to live as Christ. It is impossible. It is not impossible to accept him though. All God asks is that we come as we are.

reply to post by depth om


but do you admit that all of this is simply personal belief and not necessarily truth?
do you admit that you could be wrong?

reply to post by madnessinmysoul


I'm sorry, I just can't do that. I'll admit that Christ is the son of God. In my microcosm of existence, this is undeniable truth. In the macrocosm of conciousness, all of our thoughts as a whole, I must proclaim and hold up Jesus Christ as a beacon. Is the sky blue? Not to a blind man. Is God real? Not to a doubting man. Personal realization, is all that matters for an individual.

reply to post by depth om


so you just found a fancy way of saying no...

Yep. In saying "I could be wrong", I profess doubt in the one I hold to be God.

I can not deny my faith.

depth om, i could be wrong about the Buddhist way of life, I could be wrong about my theory on the beginnings of the universe, I could be wrong about the non-existence of god, however that doesn't mean I doubt it, in fact with the exception of the universe theory which is always changing because its a theory (thats what they do) i am certain that the above are in fact true.

Just because you leave room for change does not mean you doubt your beliefs, if your beliefs are correct that room for change will only make them stronger.

The one thing I'm saying I hold as certain is that Christ came as the Son of God, died and rose again, to show mankind the way to surpass death and return to the source.

My faith and belief grows stronger by and through God, not by challenging my belief in him. Not by testing God and not by turning away from God.

I am a Christian, I will behave as one.

Originally posted by depth om

I am a Christian, I will behave as one.

Yes and most Christians (through personal experience) act with a high level of hubris.

Every human being is hubristic during their lifetime. I simply post my convictions on this message board of faith and spirituality. I am belittling no one. Only good has come from the faith I have, so should I not be happy to talk about it? I just want to share.