Proof.

now, i know that religion is something that is faith-based, and thus doesn't require proof. i acknowledge that. if you wish to hold personal beliefs that rest on nothing but faith, that is your personal choice.

however, when you are arguing something, such as on this forum, you need something more. you need proof. many are lacking in this. this isn't just a thread telling you to "prove god" or something of that sort, it's just a bulletin that for certain beliefs, you might want to show some proof. especially when there is evidence to the contrary of that belief.

a prime example would be for those that don't believe in evolution. can you provide proof of creationism?

or those that believe the bible is infallible, can you provide proof that the earth is flat?

Thats how they get you. They just say it is "faith" and that somehow is an excuse for not having proof.

So I guess I can just have "faith" that theres an invisible autistic green elephant on Pluto that created the universe when it ate too much space fiber and not be considered a nut job.

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
or those that believe the bible is infallible, can you provide proof that the earth is flat?

Can you provide proof that the bible says the earth is flat?

reply to post by queenannie38


yes, i can.

Isaiah 40:22

"He sits enthroned above the circle of the earth, and its people are like grasshoppers. He stretches out the heavens like a canopy, and spreads them out like a tent to live in."

a circle is a flat surface with all points equidistant from the center point.

bible says, earth is flat.

however, the point of this is that people's personal beliefs need no proof, i'll give them that. when they start arguing to advocate the beliefs, they need to start showing proof.

reply to post by madnessinmysoul



Was "sphere" in his vocabulary?

Thank you, madness - I never knew where that crazy idea came from!

Wow.

Anyway...

...it APPEARS to be purely a matter of interpretation:

H2329
chûg
From H2328; a circle: - circle, circuit, compassive

The only three examples of the same word:

Thick clouds are a covering to him, that he sees not; and he walks in the circuit of heaven.
Job 22:14

When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth:
Proverbs 8:27

It is he that sits upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretches out the heavens as a curtain, and spreads them out as a tent to dwell in:
Isaiah 40:22

And therefore, my own personal CLAIM is that there in not conclusive proof that the bible states the world is flat!

----------------------------------------

Moreover, I assert that religious ideations *often* cause individuals to feel justified in claiming proof of all manner of nonsensical beliefs which either have been, can be, or eventually will be, DIS-PROVEN by empirical evidence.

My support for this claim is:

#1 Galileo Galileo and the heliocentric model of the solar system vs. the Holy Roman Church's mandate in believing that the Earth was at the center of the universe.

#2 The *out-dated* belief that the world is a mere 7,000 +/- years old vs. the evidence presented by the rocks in the Moine, of north-western Scotland.

NOTE: I say out-dated in example #2 only because as far as the Church is concerned, this is generally out-dated. However, as most of us know, the Evangelicals of severe bent have taken up this increasingly ridiculous argument with a renewed vigor. Which, in no way, makes it necessary to provide new or undiscovered ADDITIONAL empirical evidence to the other side of the argument; nevertheless, the evidence AGAINST a young Earth accrues yearly in REAL-TIME.

Why must EVERYTHING be 'either/or?' I, myself, prefer STEREOSCOPIC vision to tunnel-vision!





(and if it weren't for lizards, the insects would have eaten us up a long time ago!)

As madness already knows, all my prayers come true.

Some of them could not possibly be explained by science.


Since I have said this, I might as well say that I have my own beliefs. And they aren't anything like the major religions.

Madness, have you not been reading what ive been writing?

All the body parts that were created for specific reasons.

The miracles ive seen. The one post about the bicycle that I posted.

The trintiy implanted on our bodies. We are walking trinites. St gemma, all the miracles of Christ in the NT.

100s of miracles ive seen with me and my family.

The saints miracles, ect..


proof is given, but it takes sincerity to see it. If I didnt want God to exist, I would ask for proof forever completely ignoring what I have read about from others.

and then if proof is given in your personal life, then I would balme it on chance like my brother does.

He has seen the miracles I have, and in his life, and he doesnt accept them (yet) because of his lifestyle.

' I dont want to bow down "

please go read my signature about Gemma.

She was a 24 year old women who talked like a child with innocent eyes.

Preist and laymen witnessed her sweat blood that would soak her bed completely, she also has the stigmata and saw her angel.

But will you ever give any miracles a chance?

I have seen 100s of them.

proof is there, but it still takes faith to see it.

peace.

IMHO - I think that God and his non-existence has been so beaten to death that we need to resign ourselves to the fact that he does exist to some and he doesn't exist to others. The fact that he does to some is based on faith. The fact that he doesn't exist to others is based on their belief system.

Why do we need to, day after day, justify our beliefs. The internet is a big place for them to go and figure it out for themselves - there are also a number of churches all over the world that they could visit and clarify anything further. If they are trying to get Christians to justify their faith then that is an insult of the highest degree. Why do we, as Christians, need to justify our faith continually and for those who have already made up their minds that faith and God etc are BS.

Let's move along now and continue with our lives as we have in the past. It goes with out saying that it is the same in reverse - why do we need others to justify why they don't believe. We are NOT going to solve the existence or NON existence of God and other Christian related subjects.

We CAN discuss conspiracies etc around religion but i don't think the existence of God is a conspiracy nor the non existence of God.

I say, IMHO, get out of ATS and open a new window and go to google and search and figure it out for YOURSELF/VES.

OK so for the purpose of this thread he doesn't exist.

I am sure that makes many happy - BUT for me personally, he does exist and I won't lower myself to try and justify the existence of my creator to satisfy the purpose of a thread on ATS/BTS or any other site for that matter.

As for evolution - who cares anymore? We exist. Animals exist. How they got there is debatable to the enth degree. There is proof of evolution etc. So again, whether there was suddenly Adam and Eve or whether they were created over hundreds of thousands of years - who cares. Who even cares if they existed or not? The bible was written by men in THOSE days and they described in the best way they could for people of THOSE days to understand.

There are so many threads about the bible being a lie, God being an alien etc. Again, who cares. If you have your beliefs and faith why care what others think?? Worry about yourself and your family. The rest - it doesn't matter - really! You cannot save the world. Leave them/us to their/our own devices.

[edit on 26/9/2007 by shearder]

Originally posted by depth om
reply to post by madnessinmysoul

 

Was "sphere" in his vocabulary?

yes. ancient hebrew had such a word to describe spherical things, such as certain fruits. though not a mathematical term, the adjective existed for the 3d object.

Originally posted by wildcat
As madness already knows, all my prayers come true.

no, i don't know this. i don't take the assertion at face value.

Some of them could not possibly be explained by science.

they probably could

Originally posted by JesusisTruth

Madness, have you not been reading what ive been writing?

All the body parts that were created for specific reasons.

appendix, coccyx.

The miracles ive seen. The one post about the bicycle that I posted.

and how do you know it was baal, odin or amaterasu performing these miracles?

and how do you know they were actually miracles?

The trintiy implanted on our bodies. We are walking trinites. St gemma, all the miracles of Christ in the NT.

we aren't walking trinities. i saw the post, MM made a proper response to it

100s of miracles ive seen with me and my family.

that you can't prove.
maybe you should start carrying around a camera so i can see them too.

The saints miracles, ect..

yeah... like the child saints who are still revered... though their claim to sainthood is martyrdom at the hands of jews who drank their blood for a passover ritual...
i don't take much stock in the "miracles' of saints, as they are 100% unproven

proof is given, but it takes sincerity to see it. If I didnt want God to exist, I would ask for proof forever completely ignoring what I have read about from others.

no, statements are given, claims are made, but nothing is provided to back them up.
i don't care about whether or not god exists. i'm not saying i don't want god to exist, i'm not saying i do want god to exist. i just believe in what can be proven, nothing more or less.

and then if proof is given in your personal life, then I would balme it on chance like my brother does.

such as?

He has seen the miracles I have, and in his life, and he doesnt accept them (yet) because of his lifestyle.

..the horrid myth about atheists. the argument of moral depravity. atheists are no less moral than christians.

please go read my signature about Gemma.

She was a 24 year old women who talked like a child with innocent eyes.

Preist and laymen witnessed her sweat blood that would soak her bed completely, she also has the stigmata and saw her angel.

But will you ever give any miracles a chance?

sweating blood is far from a miracle... i know because i've done it. sweating blood is the product of a very high level of stress (i was in massive shock and i didn't sweat too much blood, only a small misting of it, still freaked me and the fam out)

I have seen 100s of them.

i'm from missouri, show me

proof is there, but it still takes faith to see it.

that
is
stupid.

proof is self-evident. you shouldn't have to accept what it proves before you can see it.

reply to post by madnessinmysoul


Again, was sphere in his vocabulary?

reply to post by depth om


yes, not the modern english term, but the equivalent ancient hebrew term was most likely in his vocabulary.

honestly, this is a case of the logical fallacy of special pleading.

reply to post by shearder


We are forced to justify our beliefs as people constantly try to shove theirs down our throats. It's only instinct to fight back. If you are frustrated and fed up with the constant debating, I suggest you just ignore those threads that contain such bickering.

Originally posted by ShadowedRedemption
We are forced to justify our beliefs as people constantly try to shove theirs down our throats.

I appreciate and respect your comment but - I disagree with you that we are forced to justify - we decide whether we feel we need to justify our beliefs. No one can force you to do anything in this regard. As for shoving their beliefs down our throats, like i said, leave them to their devices. Why lower yourself to even debate it - if one feels threatened by others' beliefs then perhaps one should not get intro a debate about it and just move on.

It's only instinct to fight back.

Agreed. And i used to take it personally. But as with taxi drivers - these elements are there and will not go away so we just have to live with them - unfortunate at times.

If you are frustrated and fed up with the constant debating, I suggest you just ignore those threads that contain such bickering.

I do, but sometimes I like to leave a message like the one i did which basically is a message to those that do believe, and in line with your point, ignore it. It will not go away, this I know - every week there will be a new thread saying God does not exist. It's just one of those worn out shoes. It has holes in it but seems comfortable to some to wear around the house. So it will just keep coming up.

Edit: grammar aggggggg today MY F7 doesn't work.

[edit on 27/9/2007 by shearder]