Why Does Everyone Bow Down to the Health Insurance Industry?

After all that I've read on this thread, from both sides, I've come to what I believe is the only logical conclusion.
A position opposing social healthcare is an untenable one, simply because as humans we have an obligation to our species - and that obligation is to help them where and how we can, and not see others suffer needlessly because of a misguided sense of greed.
You can't tell me that 1% of a wage would make that much difference on a personal level - people would probably SAVE money because they wouldn't have to fork out for private insurance - unless of course they wanted it.
I believe that it comes down to selfishness, this not wanting social healthcare, and if that's what people are about, then perhaps looking at the problem from a different perspective may help overcome it.

Not everyone can afford insurance - this is not to say they don't work hard or don't take opportunities, it's more because they never had any or they are limited in the type of work they can do for whatever reason.
But let's not forget that low wage earners play a huge support role in society, doing menial thankless jobs for little money or appreciation.
Who keeps the streets and offices clean?
Who picks the crops? (don't start about illegals pls - thats another discussion)
Who bakes the bread?
Who sells it to you?

Do you ever consider, when buying lunch, the person that has made it, the person that has served it?
Are they not deserving of healthcare, just because they don't earn as much because they have had to take a menial job?

This whole attitude of "sod you lot, I've got mine" kind of irks me and shows a lack of social responsibility.

Who's to say that a future nobel prize winner won't be born because his/her parents were let down by the society they belong to.



[edit on 27/9/2007 by budski]

I am all for social wellness. People advocating volunteering their efforts to help the less fortunate is wonderful. I donate to charitable causes and encourage others to do the same. But it is my decision which I am free to make.

The moment someone thinks they have the right to force someone else into some action they would not willingly do otherwise... well I feel I have a right to force a bullet right through their face.

Freedom, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness. Anyone willing to give that up deserves their fate.

By that logic, you should shoot all government - for everything. They're the ones who tax you, for furthering their own agenda - your taxes pay for politicians ambition to have his name prominently in the history book.
Don't you think that tax, or even a little more if you must have a warmongerer for a president, should go to the less fortunate members of society?
Or is it change that you don't like?
Pull the army out of iraq, scale it down a bit, stop pandering to lobbyists with money to spend etc etc
In short, stop spending irresponsibly and start looking after the citizens - all of them.

We did that once in 1776.

Honestly I won't be a bit surprised if we do it again.

Originally posted by apc
The moment someone thinks they have the right to force someone else into some action they would not willingly do otherwise... well I feel I have a right to force a bullet right through their face.

Freedom, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness. Anyone willing to give that up deserves their fate.

Brave words but I'll bet you still pay your taxes even if grudginly; the system still has you by the short hairs.

Now who's being asinine?

I avoid paying every penny I possibly can, I assure you. Many though I willfully pay because they benefit me. Roads being paved, public schools for my children, fire departments, police, etc.

Medicaid/Medicare as well as I understand there are those who literally have no choice but to be dependent on the State by reason of physical or mental defect.

Someone with their hand out however, noone has the right to force me to fill it.

reply to post by apc

Any chance I can refer you to the Bush family?
Al Gore ring any bells?

That statement just means you don't want to share, unless someone has the power to take it from you

Originally posted by apc
I avoid paying every penny I possibly can, I assure you. Many though I willfully pay because they benefit me. Roads being paved, public schools for my children, fire departments, police, etc.

Medicaid/Medicare as well as I understand there are those who literally have no choice but to be dependent on the State by reason of physical or mental defect.

Someone with their hand out however, noone has the right to force me to fill it.

You don't really get it, it's not socialised medicine, it's public service.
Police, Fire departament, and health care has always been part of the public service.
England invented democracy and they have this, it's part of the public service.
What is more ironic is that corporate inssurance works just like the public service in reality but at a higher price, because you pay for inssurance and if you get an illness such as cancer for example your insurance will not be able to cover all the costs , your inssurance company will then have to take from the ones that have no health issues and pay inssurance at the same corporation, being a corporation the difrence is that it would be a loss for them because they are not a public service? so in reallity it's money wasted on you from their point of view, so they will try to scam you, also the price for everythin runs so high also because everything costs so high because they have empoies to pay, profit to make, high taxes to pay, and other rules to respect set up by another set of corporations, it's practicly the birocracy of birocracy and the only one that will loose is you, because you will end up paying high inssurance all your life or get scamed by the inssurance company.

In stead why not go to the doctor , get treatment , get the medicine you want and ask no one for permision?

I can say in fact that there is more control with the inssurance company, they are like a governing body over you, they decide your faith, and dictate to you the conditions sounds more comunist to me than a public service.

Originally posted by budski
That statement just means you don't want to share...

No, I feel I would be enabling their misbehavior.

See, I'm really doing them a favor.

Thanks for reminding me what socialist totalitarianism looks like.

When you get on in years and some politician decides you're too old for that heart or hip transplant, you deserve your fate. You asked for it.

HA! your grasping for straws, this has never happened, fool.

I am all for social wellness. People advocating volunteering their efforts to help the less fortunate is wonderful. I donate to charitable causes and encourage others to do the same. But it is my decision which I am free to make.

Its >My< money which >I< have so >I< am going to spend it on >Me<

heheheh, you know that this works out to be CHEAPER usually, than non socialist healthcare?

The moment someone thinks they have the right to force someone else into some action they would not willingly do otherwise... well I feel I have a right to force a bullet right through their face.

This is just moronic. They have every right to create such a system.

Look at the UK healthcare system, who set it up? THE PEOPLE, not the government.

Freedom, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness. Anyone willing to give that up deserves their fate.

What the hell are you talking about? Ive given up nothing except a fwe dollars every year and ive gained medical freedom.

By that logic, you should shoot all government - for everything. They're the ones who tax you, for furthering their own agenda - your taxes pay for politicians ambition to have his name prominently in the history book.

Budski, ive agreed with you so far. But the government doesnt tax you for 'their own agenda'. To be an effective body, the government needs money. Im in the most taxed area in the world and even i see this.

I avoid paying every penny I possibly can, I assure you. Many though I willfully pay because they benefit me. Roads being paved, public schools for my children, fire departments, police, etc.

Medicaid/Medicare as well as I understand there are those who literally have no choice but to be dependent on the State by reason of physical or mental defect.

Someone with their hand out however, noone has the right to force me to fill it.

I already told you, over here your not forced to get medicare. But everyone agrees that it is better for you.

Ive heard a good chunk of our government officials still use the Medicare system, not bothering with Private, simply because its the same thing, but cheaper.

You don't really get it, it's not socialised medicine, it's public service.

Its both, but just because its socialised, doesnt mean its wrong.

Police, Fire departament, and health care has always been part of the public service.
England invented democracy and they have this, it's part of the public service.

Cough *Athens invented Democracy* Cough

But England has a very old modern democracy which has treated this as a public service, you are correct.

No, I feel I would be enabling their misbehavior.

See, I'm really doing them a favor.

"Yeah! You lay down and die, thatll teach you for having a bad job!"

*apc kicks corpse*

Please, your blind. I can afford the costs, i could afford them a few times over, can you?

not without breaking the bank.

Originally posted by apc
I avoid paying every penny I possibly can, I assure you. Many though I willfully pay because they benefit me. Roads being paved, public schools for my children

Someone with their hand out however, noone has the right to force me to fill it.

Then here is MY argument!!!! Going by your logic, I should be going into a FIT because I have to pay taxes to send YOUR devilspawn offspring to public school. Why in the world do I want to pay for public schools just so someone else's children can attend?????? If I decide to not have children, why pay into schools for OTHER peoples' spawn??

All the problem with paying taxes into healthcare, what about paying for your kids to go to school when it does not benefit me?

You'll get no argument from me. I wish the money followed the student. No student, no money.

You'll get no argument from me. I wish the money followed the student. No student, no money.

God, its almost as if you were selfish or something

Originally posted by apc

Originally posted by budski
That statement just means you don't want to share...

No, I feel I would be enabling their misbehavior.

See, I'm really doing them a favor.

Now I know you're not really serious.
I understand why you want to defend your position, but it really is indefensible.

Says who? You?

I'm defending Freedom. You're advocating Socialism. Socialism is slavery.

Slavery is indefensible.

reply to post by apc


So are you saying that any form of taxation is socialism?
Any instance of creating a fair society where public services are there for the common good is socialism?

If that's the case then I must be a socialist.

Or are you just clinging to the freedom argument because it's convenient - there is no lack of freedom in social healthcare, only social justice which in turn leads to greater freedom FOR ALL - or is it only your freedom that matters?

Says who? You?

I'm defending Freedom. You're advocating Socialism. Socialism is slavery.

Slavery is indefensible.

HAHAHAH.

Sorry.

so·cial·ism /ˈsoʊʃəˌlɪzəm/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[soh-shuh-liz-uhm] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun
1. a theory or system of social organization that advocates the vesting of the ownership and control of the means of production and distribution, of capital, land, etc., in the community as a whole.
2. procedure or practice in accordance with this theory.
3. (in Marxist theory) the stage following capitalism in the transition of a society to communism, characterized by the imperfect implementation of collectivist principles.

lav·er·y /ˈsleɪvəri, ˈsleɪvri/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[sley-vuh-ree, sleyv-ree] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun
1. the condition of a slave; bondage.
2. the keeping of slaves as a practice or institution.
3. a state of subjection like that of a slave: He was kept in slavery by drugs.
4. severe toil; drudgery.

Not the same, are they?

heheheh

I like how you conveniently skipped my post before

Oh well, look. You are defending each mans right to stubbornly refuse all help and die in the street of something he needs help to beat.

thats Freedom for you...noone said it was nice.

Originally posted by budski
Or are you just clinging to the freedom argument because it's convenient - there is no lack of freedom in social healthcare...

You surrender control. Politicians decide what care you are eligible for, or more importantly, ineligible for. That is not freedom.

Originally posted by apc

Originally posted by budski
Or are you just clinging to the freedom argument because it's convenient - there is no lack of freedom in social healthcare...

You surrender control. Politicians decide what care you are eligible for, or more importantly, ineligible for. That is not freedom.

So how is that different from what happens now - if you think you have any control then you are labouring under a misconception.

There is NO such thing as freedom, end of story - to say otherwise is to deny history and have no conception of the modern world.

[edit on 28/9/2007 by budski]

As long as you believe that, you're right.