Death doesn't make sense according to physics

I dont think physics explains life after death (yet). The body ("energy") dies, and that dead body turns into something else (dust).

But fortunately you dont need physics or science to believe in life after death: There is no evidence whatsoever that consciousness/awareness "dies" when the body dies. People who believe that consciousness is a product of the brain will easily be led to believe that when the brain dies, then consciousness dies...

but I contradict the science that says "consciousness is a product of the brain" for the simple reason that consciousness cannot BE something that it can observe. you cannot observe something and be it at the same time. And since your awareness can observe the brain and the mind and its thoughts, it cannot BE it. An analogy: Eyes cannot observe themselves, because they are themselves.

Therefore its not a stretch at all to assume that consciousness never dies.

reply to post by polomontana


You're repeating yourself, down to the same links.

So I'll do the same - until you can show what you're talking about - life, spirit, or whatever - actually IS, then you can't declare it is a wave, or energy, or a soliton, or whatever else the buzzword is this year.

It's sort of fruitless to say what happens to it when you don't know what it is.

You certainly can't wave your hands about in the air, click your heels three times and declare it's a deBroglie wave, or dark energy, or dark matter.

Might as well declare that it's a whippoorwill flyin' through the air, like Hillbilly Jim declared his father. No proof - not even any rational reason to declare it's that and not, say, some weird pattern phenomenon in liquid strings, or whatever else pops to mind.

I think I see part of the issue here, it is being suggested that our consciousness is not part of the energy of the body and somehow can escape the death of the meat and carry on.

While it's true that energy doesn't cease, it does change forms. When the meat dies, it is fed on by bacteria and even some larger animals and returns to the environment (in the case of burial anyway) as nutrients which help energize the ecosystem.

That's the only sense in which our energy carries on. That we know of now.

Yeah, I pretty much agree with Tom.

The closest 'Science' has come or pseudo-science if you will, is trying to weigh the body before and after death, resulting in claims that upon the moment of death, there's a minute drop in weight.

Admittedly, our science is still primitive. Thus I'd be wary or trying to use pseudo-science to prove the paranormal. (ghosts, existence of the 'soul').

I'd certainly be opposed to the thought that one should 'waste' one's current life with the idea that the 'real' reward happens after death. Don't laugh - there are religious sects that believe exactly that - "suffer here on Earth - your reward is later".

Some 'suffering' is ok, good even, but think twice before wasting your life on the chance that there is a supernatural afterlife.

2 cents.

Originally posted by MajorMalfunction
Science does not deal with the supernatural, only that which can be observed and measured.

Yeah just like an aircraft "vaporizing"


(edit to include quote source)

[edit on 15-9-2007 by Jbird]

People aren't made of energy. We don't contain energy, we don't produce energy, and we dont use energy to do things. We just call it energy as a lamen term for the public. Drinking a redbull gives you energy right? Nothing can give you energy.

E=MC2

Energy=Mass times the speed of light. Energy isn't around us, Matter is around us. Energy is a force. We con't control or do anything with it.

[edit on 9/15/2007 by Schmidt1989]

Originally posted by Vipassana
From my understanding this is pretty simple physics. The energy that we are simply transitions into different energy, and disperses into the universe. Insects and animals eat it, plants take it and grow, and a lot of it is lost into the earth. You are correct that it doesn't die though, the thing is that it was never alive in the first place.

Nothing really dies, it just re-combines, or should I say, it's the atoms that never die.
We are not even as we once were, the atoms we were born with are now gone, they were replaced long ago, by new cells, made up of new atoms, who are we now, what happened to our old bodies?
Does anyone understand "What I be talkin' bout, eh Willis"?

The cells and atoms that we have now, can they store memories, perhaps in the form of waves, or energy, remembering the form in and of the atoms that now occupy us?
Is it conscious energy?

Is there life after death? I don't know, nobody has passed and told me or anyone I know about it.
But I did have a cousin die, and I felt his communication during, or after he died, but that's a whole 'nother story.

I think the Universe is stranger than we can ever understand, to know for sure if we live on, we must die first, otherwise we will never know.

Isn't it possible that we die because we have exhausted the last of our energy?

Or as I believe, when we die our energy gets released into nature as a whole?

EMC2 is flawed in my opinion I beleieve there are ways to get more energy out of something than is put in. Imagine a steep pinnacle. Over time it is eroded away,and eventually you have a huge boulder now only connected by a thread to the formation. A raindrop falls, breaks it loose and it rolls downhill eventually destroying several homes. So a little raindrop releases energy to the equivelant of a bunch of dynamite. Where did all the energy come from? .

First off, some people do put their faith in death. When you question death it's like questioning a Muslim about Islam.

Now that I have shown that A energy can't die and B we are not something different than energy, we must conclude that the laws of physics shows that your energy survives death because it can't die.

Now, can this energy contain information about you? The answer is yes. The zero point energy associated with your body is connected to the zero point field. This zero point field is shown to us through the uncertainty principle. The lowest allowable energy level in a harmonic oscillator is not zero but hw/2. So if you have a pendulum that's swinging it will eventually come to rest but not so with a quantum harmonic oscillator. So even when we are brain dead the zero point energy associated with our bodies is not dead.

Can this field process information? Of course it can and we are trying to duplicate it with quantum computers.

There's no such thing as the supernatural. A supernatural event is labeled such because we don't fully understand it. If you were to go back 2,000 years ago and clone a sheep it would be labeled a supernatural. Life after death occurs naturally and anyone who would mention anything about the supernatural would first have to show me that the supernatural exist.

Also, how do psychics have sketches drawn of criminals before the cops even have a suspect? How do psychics give cops the name of the criminal before the police have a suspect? How do psychics show police where the criminal lives before the police even have a suspect? All this occurs and police officers vouch for the psyhic. Should we just stick our heads in the sand and ignore these things because of a pre-existing belief system?

A psychic often talks about connecting to a persons energy and I have proven that energy survives death because energy can't die.

Originally posted by disgustedbyhumanity
Isn't it possible that we die because we have exhausted the last of our energy?

Or as I believe, when we die our energy gets released into nature as a whole?

EMC2 is flawed in my opinion I beleieve there are ways to get more energy out of something than is put in. Imagine a steep pinnacle. Over time it is eroded away,and eventually you have a huge boulder now only connected by a thread to the formation. A raindrop falls, breaks it loose and it rolls downhill eventually destroying several homes. So a little raindrop releases energy to the equivelant of a bunch of dynamite. Where did all the energy come from? .

Its a force. Say the raindrop fell at about 3000m/s. since gravity is 10m/s2 we can assume it fell 300 meters from the cloud. sure thats fast, and its going to creates quite some energy, but not that equal to a dynamite explosion, becuase the masses are so different. we get hit by raindrops all the time, and they weigh so little, we barely notice them. but the mass of a stick of dynamite exploding propelling a boulder forward is far greater than the raindrop.

death is just our body releasing the energy when it can't sustain or produce it anymore. our conscienceness is extinguished because our brain can't control and harness the energy any longer. you would "live" on afterward if there were a way to transfer your memories and thoughts with the energy. too bad the energy doesn't store the memories... we would live forever.

Perhaps our "energy" moves on to the afterlife, or the next life, along with our soul.

Or, perhaps our energy is also consumed by the giant soul catcher that John Lear claims is on our moon!

reply to post by polomontana


I find it interesting that you have choosen to ignore everything Tom Bedlam has said. Are you aware he is a physicist?

I'm not a physicist, I'm a philospher by my schooling, and I'm having a hard time following you. Mostly because as Tom has pointed out more than once, you are using physics terms without understanding what they mean. You keep saying "energy can't die". What does that even mean? If you are making the claim that energy is "alive" I think most physicists would take issue with that, or at least say "HUH?!?".

If you want us to understand start by defining all your terms. That's a requirement in a philosphical work.

Vas

Azoth, Tom has not denied anything I have said.

It still stands that energy can't be created nor destroyed. I have explained it thoroughly.

I know some people have faith in death and they can't stand to hear anything to the contrary but I'm sorry to have to break this news to you.

Tom has just admitted that energy doesn't die nor disappear when you experience death. Nobody can dispute this within the laws of physics. This is why people talk about supernatural or mystical, this is what you do when you can't dispute the point.

Originally posted by polomontana

Now that I have shown that A energy can't die and B we are not something different than energy, we must conclude that the laws of physics shows that your energy survives death because it can't die.

But what you have NOT shown, again, is that your consciousness, soul, spirit, ka, or whathaveyou is anything other than information processed by your brain.

So the energy that survives death is nothing but some rapidly cooling thermal energy and chemical energy in the dead meat you have become.

Now, can this energy contain information about you? The answer is yes. The zero point energy associated with your body is connected to the zero point field. This zero point field is shown to us through the uncertainty principle. The lowest allowable energy level in a harmonic oscillator is not zero but hw/2. So if you have a pendulum that's swinging it will eventually come to rest but not so with a quantum harmonic oscillator. So even when we are brain dead the zero point energy associated with our bodies is not dead.

Why invoke zero point energy at all, other than it's the latest quantum-babble buzzword? You have lots of nuclear energy too! Every particle in your body has an energy equivalence. But like the zero point energy, it does not contain your consciousness. There isn't any soul there. It's not in the chemical bonds of your dead meat, either.

Can this field process information? Of course it can and we are trying to duplicate it with quantum computers.

I'm afraid you're wrong there. Quantum computing doesn't use spirits or kas. And the zero point field doesn't 'process information'.

I could also make your knuckle bones into some fine I Ching oracle bones, but would the results reflect your dead thoughts? Or are they nothing but pieces of hydroxyapatite?

There's no such thing as the supernatural. A supernatural event is labeled such because we don't fully understand it. If you were to go back 2,000 years ago and clone a sheep it would be labeled a supernatural. Life after death occurs naturally and anyone who would mention anything about the supernatural would first have to show me that the supernatural exist.

Isn't this the same thing you said a few posts back? I agree - life does begin with death, but it's the life of single celled creatures, followed shortly by that of flies and worms. Eventually, it will become the life of plants. This is the 'circle of life'.

A psychic often talks about connecting to a persons energy and I have proven that energy survives death because energy can't die.

A simon-pure example of using the term "energy" in a mystical sense and then trying to bamboozle it into having the aegis of physics behind it. Welcome, you have now begun to commune with the "energy" of Madame Blavatsky - soon you will be telling me about vibrations and waves along with the energy part.

Originally posted by Tom Bedlam

Originally posted by polomontana

Now that I have shown that A energy can't die and B we are not something different than energy, we must conclude that the laws of physics shows that your energy survives death because it can't die.

But what you have NOT shown, again, is that your consciousness, soul, spirit, ka, or whathaveyou is anything other than information processed by your brain.

So the energy that survives death is nothing but some rapidly cooling thermal energy and chemical energy in the dead meat you have become.

Now, can this energy contain information about you? The answer is yes. The zero point energy associated with your body is connected to the zero point field. This zero point field is shown to us through the uncertainty principle. The lowest allowable energy level in a harmonic oscillator is not zero but hw/2. So if you have a pendulum that's swinging it will eventually come to rest but not so with a quantum harmonic oscillator. So even when we are brain dead the zero point energy associated with our bodies is not dead.

Why invoke zero point energy at all, other than it's the latest quantum-babble buzzword? You have lots of nuclear energy too! Every particle in your body has an energy equivalence. But like the zero point energy, it does not contain your consciousness. There isn't any soul there. It's not in the chemical bonds of your dead meat, either.

Can this field process information? Of course it can and we are trying to duplicate it with quantum computers.

I'm afraid you're wrong there. Quantum computing doesn't use spirits or kas. And the zero point field doesn't 'process information'.

I could also make your knuckle bones into some fine I Ching oracle bones, but would the results reflect your dead thoughts? Or are they nothing but pieces of hydroxyapatite?

There's no such thing as the supernatural. A supernatural event is labeled such because we don't fully understand it. If you were to go back 2,000 years ago and clone a sheep it would be labeled a supernatural. Life after death occurs naturally and anyone who would mention anything about the supernatural would first have to show me that the supernatural exist.

Isn't this the same thing you said a few posts back? I agree - life does begin with death, but it's the life of single celled creatures, followed shortly by that of flies and worms. Eventually, it will become the life of plants. This is the 'circle of life'.

A psychic often talks about connecting to a persons energy and I have proven that energy survives death because energy can't die.

A simon-pure example of using the term "energy" in a mystical sense and then trying to bamboozle it into having the aegis of physics behind it. Welcome, you have now begun to commune with the "energy" of Madame Blavatsky - soon you will be telling me about vibrations and waves along with the energy part.

Tom nothing you said here is scientific. This is all opinion.

First, you admit that energy survives death. That's my first point.

Second, zero point energy is a proven with things like the uncertainty principle and Casimir Effect.

Even when your brain dead energy still exist. Again, you have no answer as to how psychics can have sketches drawn of criminals before the police even have a suspect. You answer is just to stick your head in the sand. That's seeking the truth?

Like I said some people have strong faith in death and they get irrational when that belief is challenged.

Here's a few links:

www.victorzammit.com...

www.cfpf.org.uk...

veritas.arizona.edu...

You can read a little about zero point energy here:

en.wikipedia.org...

Polo, my friend, did you miss the part where it is revealed that Tom is a physicist?

I think his knowledge of physics will trump what can be dug up online, if one isn't trained in the field. Nothing personal.

Originally posted by MajorMalfunction
Polo, my friend, did you miss the part where it is revealed that Tom is a physicist?

I think his knowledge of physics will trump what can be dug up online, if one isn't trained in the field. Nothing personal.

So what Tom is a physicist, he hasn't said anything that disputes what I'm saying outside of his opinion.

Nothing he has said has disputed anything that I have said outside of mentioning mysics and this Madame blatvky lady. Nothing.

I made a thread months ago which shows evidence that consciousness is independent of the brain, which means that the brain does not create consciousness. So when the brain dies, the mind is still out there somewhere Check it out:

www.abovetopsecret.com...